Probate, LPA, will advice

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andya700

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Andy
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Without going into too many details, my father passed away last night. It was expected, it was quick and peaceful and he was in his nineties. However, early last year or possibly 2021, my late sister arranged an LPA for him, jointly with a cousin and I would like some advice about the ins and outs of LPA's and the OPG. I was not aware of this LPA and despite contacting the OPG, I have been told that the LPA does not have to share any information with me, regarding his finances or property, I found out a week ago, that my late father's property had been put on the market 14 days ago. The cousin who is LPA has refused to reply to any emails or phone calls I have made to her.
Any advice would be welcome.
Cheers.
 
I can't help with any advice, except maybe seek legal professional help.
I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your father, expected or not, it always comes as a shock.
 
Condolences on the passing of your father.
As for the LPA, as I understand it, that has now ceased upon the death of the donor, your father.
Get a solicitor.
 
I tried to go down the legal route a few months ago, but two local law firms wouldn't touch it.
 
To overturn the LPA?
Well the circumstances have changed now haven’t they?
 
andya700 said:
I tried to go down the legal route a few months ago, but two local law firms wouldn't touch it.
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That does seem odd TBH.
Not to make light of it, I thought they would do pretty much anything for money, did they say why?
 
The property cannot be sold until the will has been read. Which ever solicitor holds the will should be able to represent you.
 
andya700 said:
I tried to go down the legal route a few months ago, but two local law firms wouldn't touch it.
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I would go to your Citizen's Advice Bureau (their website is here: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/ ) and ask who would be available to help. They should be able to put you in touch with a volunteer professional in the field for an initial consultation, which is generally free of charge.
 
Sorry for your loss. You definitely need good legal help.

Unfortunately I'd assume the cousin is basically trying to take everything unless proved otherwise or have been up to no good.

Finding out the executors of any will is another important step. There are strict rules on what can and cannot be done.

I'd check out the land registry and see who the property is registered to at the moment and when anything was last changed. It will also show any charges against the property eg if the cousin has mortgaged it. I'd also contact the estate agent selling the property and tell them what is going on.
 
Just to re-iterate the above - the LPA ceased to be at the time of your father's passing. The actions of someone acting on the donor's behalf are tied to only doing things in the best interest of the donor. You're no doubt going through a lot emotionally at the moment, but it would be useful to understand why the house was put on the market while he was still alive. Was he still living at the property - or had he moved to a care home (or had plans to do so)? And so the idea was to help pay the care fees? If there doesn't appear to be a genuine reason (in your dad's interest) for putting the property on the market, then there's definitely cause to speak to a solicitor at the earliest opportunity. You didn't mention it specifically, but is there a known valid will in existance?
 
(not legal advice, but I'm in the middle of the whole executor and probate process for my dad's estate at the moment so have very recent experience)

The LPA inevitably ends on death. What follows is probate, which will be required as there is property, so no sale can be concluded until the grant of representation is issued by HMCTS.

If there's a will then one of the executors will have to apply for probate and will have to declare they are acting with the consent of all the executors (HMCTS will contact all of them in any case), which involves a lot of information gathering before the application can be made, possible payment of IHT if any is due, then a wait. It was stated as 16 weeks if no problems with the application when I put my dad's in back in March, but I got it in seven.

At this point the will becomes a public document that you can download for a small fee, as HMCTS require the original when the application is made and scan it in for upload. The only thing that can be done with any money in the estate prior to the grant is to pay funeral expenses, property maintenance etc but no distribution to beneficiaries. After the grant then this can be used to collect money from banks etc which require it (they all have different thresholds above which they require the grant before paying out to the executors, and below they accept just the death certificate) and to sell property, and then it must be distributed by the executor(s) per the terms of the will. The expenses an executor can claim are strictly limited (no charging the estate for your time, for example, but postage costs and the probate application fee are OK).

The institutions that require the probate will either require an indemnity from the executor collecting the money or the signatures and (possibly) ID from the other executors - it varies, Nationwide accepted a signed indemnity from me, M&G, BNY Mellon and YBS all required signatures from all the executors and YBS also wanted copies of photo ID (didn't need to be certified). They all make electronic ID checks, possibly followed by physical ones (which will involved certified copies of documents or originals) if they can't establish identity electronically.

If there's no will then intestacy kicks in and that's a major headache, which fortunately I avoided as my parents made wills a decade or so back. I made one when I was in my 20s.


Do you know if there's a will? If so, do you know what it says? If you suspect your cousin will be trying to defraud the estate, you should speak to a solicitor immediately. It will cost, but not doing so will likely be more expensive in the long run so the sooner you act the better.
 
I tried to contact the LPA by phone and email on Friday, but have had no response. I have contacted the estate agent just now and someone will hopefully call me back when they are open. I contacted my dad's solicitors on Friday and hope hat they will call me back (they haven't done before). If they don't get back to me, I will be reporting them to the Solicitors Regulation Authority.
 
Sorry for your loss Andy.
This is the link about the LPA.

Make, register or end a lasting power of attorney

How to make a lasting power of attorney (LPA): starting an application online, choosing an attorney, certifying a copy, changing an LPA.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

As for the rest it does look complicated, I would suggest you speak to Citizens advice as they may be able to help in what you need to do next. Just going straight to a lawyer at this stage may make things even more complicated.
 
Surely the house can now only be sold once probate is granted, and with the decease so recent, this is unlikely to have been done; but even if so, you can apply for a caveat to challenge the granting of probate. Again, legal advice is needed really though.
 
Sorry for your loss Andy.

My mother has been dead just over a year and we are still unable to sell the house because we're waiting for probate. Until that's granted nothing of significant value may be disposed of.
 
@andya700 my condolences to you and your family.

I can only express my concern about what you say......if as stated an LPA expires once the person is deceased but the sale instruction was made by the person with LPA with your late father's consent(?) and you are being stonewalled by those that should (afteral is was your father!) not ignore you.

I echo what others have said..... urgently consult CAB and/or your chosen solicitor.

The matter of your father's estate and the latterly involvement of the LPA has complications that need legal insight and possibly action. I surmise his Will is a key 'instrument' in any satisfaction.

I hope you can resolve the situation satisfactorily & amicably for all concerned.
 
Box Brownie said:
@andya700 my condolences to you and your family.

I can only express my concern about what you say......if as stated an LPA expires once the person is deceased but the sale instruction was made by the person with LPA with your late father's consent(?) and you are being stonewalled by those that should (afteral is was your father!) not ignore you.

I echo what others have said..... urgently consult CAB and/or your chosen solicitor.

The matter of your father's estate and the latterly involvement of the LPA has complications that need legal insight and possibly action. I surmise his Will is a key 'instrument' in any satisfaction.

I hope you can resolve the situation satisfactorily & amicably for all concerned.
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Thanks for this post, I contacted CAB this morning, but they cannot help, advised that I get legal help. We went to the hospital, to ask about funeral, death certificate etc, to be told that my cousin (she is LPA) is down as next of kin. She hasn't even bothered to contact me to offer condolences. My father's/sister's solicitors haven't got back to me, so I have emailed them. I very much suspect that the cousin is also executor or trustee.
I have a nasty suspicion that this is not going to be amicable.
 
On Tuesday 4th I had a call from the hospital to say that they could not contact the LPA, who they had down as next of kin, so they put me as next of kin and informed registry office, who then contacted me. I registered my late dad's death on Wednesday 5th and I have the death certificate(s).
This morning out of the blue a call from a funeral service, who had been given my numbe by the LPA. Then I opened up my emails and found a reply from my late dad's solicitors, simply telling me that an executor had been appointed, but they couldn't give me any further details.
 
andya700 said:
On Tuesday 4th I had a call from the hospital to say that they could not contact the LPA, who they had down as next of kin, so they put me as next of kin and informed registry office, who then contacted me. I registered my late dad's death on Wednesday 5th and I have the death certificate(s).
This morning out of the blue a call from a funeral service, who had been given my numbe by the LPA. Then I opened up my emails and found a reply from my late dad's solicitors, simply telling me that an executor had been appointed, but they couldn't give me any further details.
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Have you yet gotten your own legal advice? ......the more this moves forward......the more intertwined complexity seems to be coming out :thinking:
 
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Box Brownie said:
Have you yet gotten your own legal advice? ......the more this moves forward......the more intertwined complexity seems to be coming out :thinking:
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I contacted a local solicitor on Friday, but they wanted £150 + VAT for an initial consultation. I have a friend making enquiries as well.
 
Tv
andya700 said:
I contacted a local solicitor on Friday, but they wanted £150 + VAT for an initial consultation. I have a friend making enquiries as well.
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I would say £180 is a worthwhile investment if it saves this other person from selling your dad’s house from under your nose? As said, the LPA is no longer valid, but is there a will?
 
boogie man said:
Tv

I would say £180 is a worthwhile investment if it saves this other person from selling your dad’s house from under your nose? As said, the LPA is no longer valid, but is there a will?
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There is a will and an executor, but the solicitors will not give me any further information. I was told by the funeral service that the LPA would not be attending the funeral.
 
This government page may be of use if there's a question over the will...

Stopping a probate application

How to challenge a probate application (‘enter a caveat’) if there’s a dispute about a will. What to do if your probate application is challenged.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
Does anyone know if the executor of the will is responsible for using funds from the estate to pay for the funeral, or deferring the cost of the funeral until the estate is settled?
 
andya700 said:
Does anyone know if the executor of the will is responsible for using funds from the estate to pay for the funeral, or deferring the cost of the funeral until the estate is settled?
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It seems that probate and administration fees are paid from the estate by default...
www.kctrust.co.uk

Can probate fees be paid from the estate? | Kings Court Trust

Kings Court Trust's new blog discusses what probate is, whether probate can be paid from the estate, and what other expenses can be deducted from the estate.
www.kctrust.co.uk www.kctrust.co.uk
 
When I was joint Executor for my mother her accounts were frozen initially but the bank would still honour certain payments which included the funeral. The executors can also claim reasonable costs that they incurred in carrying out their duties. We had to send a number of documents recorded delivery by post and certainly could have claimed the costs from the Estate though we did not bother.

Dave
 
We also had a building society account held by my mother closed without warning, and a cheque sent to us as executors for the entire amount. That was some months after her death, so IF that happens, you have a little time.
 
ancient_mariner said:
We also had a building society account held by my mother closed without warning, and a cheque sent to us as executors for the entire amount. That was some months after her death, so IF that happens, you have a little time.
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But @andya700 is IIRC not the executor and the speed of the way a bank may "work" and release closed account funds to the executor is an unknown factor.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post in any way.
 
It was more information that if there were a bank account with money it it, one should not assume it is safely locked away until the will is read.
 
There are some very strange comments in this thread . . .

I've acted as executor to a couple of friends. As such, my responsibility was to the deceased until their death, after that it was to the beneficiaries.
The LPA ended with the death of your father, but there is a potential problem in that money or goods may have been disposed of or transferred whilst your father was alive, and you will want to check this out, although only a good solicitor will be able to tell you what (if anything) you can do about it.
andya700 said:
Does anyone know if the executor of the will is responsible for using funds from the estate to pay for the funeral, or deferring the cost of the funeral until the estate is settled?
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Yes, the executor pays for the funeral and closely related items from the estate, Only testamentary expenses (basically funeral expenses) can be paid by the executor prior to the granting of probate.

It will probably take quite some time for the probate application to be filed, but once they have it the probate office will share information with anyone who approaches them, and will also supply a copy of the Will. They are neutral and generally try to be helpful, but can sometimes be inefficient.
Fuji Dave said:
I'm sure it can't just be sold as the reading of the WILL has to be done first, if the house is sold before then the person who sold it could be in big trouble.
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Nobody actually reads wills anymore, not sure that they ever did, outside of films.

A forum must be the worst possible place to get advice on this. You need a qualified solicitor who specialises in these things. A legal executive should be able to do it, and may be a bit cheaper, but I would advise against it.
andya700 said:
I contacted a local solicitor on Friday, but they wanted £150 + VAT for an initial consultation. I have a friend making enquiries as well.
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Most solicitors (outside London) charge around £330 per hour + VAT. You just need to bite the bullet, the consequences of trying to avoid paying legal fees may be catastrophic!
 
Garry Edwards said:
There are some very strange comments in this thread . . .

I've acted as executor to a couple of friends. As such, my responsibility was to the deceased until their death, after that it was to the beneficiaries.
The LPA ended with the death of your father, but there is a potential problem in that money or goods may have been disposed of or transferred whilst your father was alive, and you will want to check this out, although only a good solicitor will be able to tell you what (if anything) you can do about it.

Yes, the executor pays for the funeral and closely related items from the estate, Only testamentary expenses (basically funeral expenses) can be paid by the executor prior to the granting of probate.

It will probably take quite some time for the probate application to be filed, but once they have it the probate office will share information with anyone who approaches them, and will also supply a copy of the Will. They are neutral and generally try to be helpful, but can sometimes be inefficient.

Nobody actually reads wills anymore, not sure that they ever did, outside of films.

A forum must be the worst possible place to get advice on this. You need a qualified solicitor who specialises in these things. A legal executive should be able to do it, and may be a bit cheaper, but I would advise against it.

Most solicitors (outside London) charge around £330 per hour + VAT. You just need to bite the bullet, the consequences of trying to avoid paying legal fees may be catastrophic!
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Thanks Garry, excellent advice, yesterday I received legal advice and we will see what happens. I have PM'd you.
 
My condolences.
The only document of worth now is the Last Will and Testament. Any Will made with a solicitor is nigh on impossible to contest because they assess the person who is 'writing' the will and makes sure he/she understands the consequences of the will. Take a deep breath and use a solicitors - They will really do the best they can for you and trust them. They are professionally qualified and registered and regulated. I used one on my mums death and I know everything was done legally and completely. I had Mums care home chasing me for outstanding monies but the solicitor to told them to 'do one' because they missed a cut off date.
 
Does anyone know if and how the Office for the Public Guardian can be investigated? As far as I can see, they are self regulating (which is never a good thing) when it comes to investigating.
 
andya700 said:
Does anyone know if and how the Office for the Public Guardian can be investigated?
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You can always try writing to your MP.

Mine has been very helpful but I daresay it all depends on their level of commitment.
 
Does anyone know the best way to contact the probate registry, because I have just found out, that having put a caveat against my father's probate in July, probate was actually granted in September.
 
andya700 said:
Does anyone know the best way to contact the probate registry, because I have just found out, that having put a caveat against my father's probate in July, probate was actually granted in September.
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I wonder if these links are helpful?

www.gov.uk

The Legal Ombudsman

The Legal Ombudsman for England and Wales is appointed by the Office for Legal Complaints to run an independent scheme that resolves complaints about lawyers in a fair and effective way, helping to drive improvements to legal services. The Legal Ombudsman works with the Ministry of Justice .
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

How We Work

Our service is free for consumers, our aim is to be open, independent and impartial when resolving consumer and legal service provider disputes.
www.legalombudsman.org.uk www.legalombudsman.org.uk

It seems there is no way to make a direct and personal contact with the Probate Register and the route appears to be a need to use a solicitor whose expertise is in Wills & Probate, to help resolve any issues???
 
I have this contact information:

"Thankyou for your email you can call us on 0300 303 0648."
 
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