Print washing - Ilford tray method

auntiemaryscanary

auntiemaryscanary

Suspended / Banned
Messages
836
Edit My Images
Yes
My small darkroom doesn't have running water and I'd prefer not to connect it to the house with a 30 metre hosepipe.

I'm going to be wet printing onto Ilford MG paper. Part of the Ilford Technical Information "Washing Photographic Film & Papers" states an alternative method for RC papers:

It is also possible to use a sequence of three trays with still water in. Wash for 15 seconds in each, with agitation. Change the water in the trays after each session.

Does anyone one have direct experience of this method? Does it work etc?

Screenshot_20221122-170227.png
 
Last edited:
I have a print washer that I used in recent years, basically covering the whole period when I used resin coated papers. Back in the "good old days" of the 1960s I used fibre paper and had no print washer. I used a tray to wash prints using the then recommended method which was six changes of water, five minutes in each, and nine changes of five minutes for the heavier papers. Papers in those days came as single weight and double weight in umpteen base tints and surfaces.

Did the prints last? Well, my contact sheets from the period, plus boxes of quarter plate prints are all still fine.

Edit to add: triple weight papers were the first casualty of the great paper cut :(
 
Last edited:
StephenM said:
I have a print washer that I used in recent years, basically covering the whole period when I used resin coated papers. Back in the "good old days" of the 1960s I used fibre paper and had no print washer. I used a tray to wash prints using the then recommended method which was six changes of water, five minutes in each, and nine changes of five minutes for the heavier papers. Papers in those days came as single weight and double weight in umpteen base tints and surfaces.

Did the prints last? Well, my contact sheets from the period, plus boxes of quarter plate prints are all still fine.

Edit to add: triple weight papers were the first casualty of the great paper cut :(
Click to expand...
Thanks that's re-assuring. 15 secs x 3 certainly is quicker than 5 mins x 6 (or 9!) for your 1960s papers.
 
I tray washall my prints including fiber prints, as running water continually is, for me, simply a no no ( even if I had funds to pay an elevated water usage bill), so I don't see you having a problem tbh

Admittedly with FB paper, its several washes ......I forget off hand how many but about 7 iirc

I now have ilfods wash aid to help reduce the washing time though as yet I have to use it and see how much of a difference it actually makes.
 
StephenM said:
the then recommended method which was six changes of water, five minutes in each, and nine changes of five minutes for the heavier papers.
Click to expand...

Reading back on the thread , i see that Stephen has already pretty much covered my washing mthod for ( double weight ) FB papers :)
 
Thanks @StephenM and @Asha . I've some new paper developer arriving from Morco on Thursday so I will be able to give the tray washing a try after that. Currently I only have three 5x7 developing trays so will have to work with that paper size for now .

I'll be buying 3 washing up bowls for the print washing at £1.40 each from the "Pound Shop" which will easily take 8x10 paper. A new shelf will be built below the wet side bench (a mighty 12" wide x 4' long :) ) for the washing up bowls. I thought about using more washing up bowls for processing 8x10 paper. However I decided I will get some properly sized developing trays for this. Realistically above 10x12 paper size it could easily get too cramped in my 4ft square darkroom. If I want to do larger prints I'll hire an enlarger at the community darkroom I've recently joined.

Edited for spelling.
 
Last edited:
You should really use a tray one size larger than the paper, to make things easier, if only to get the print tongs in.

There's no easy answer to the lack of bench space for larger prints. Possibilities that spring to mind are a Nova processor (expensive now) or a print drum as used for colour printing. With black and white, light proofing doesn't matter, so easy pour in/pour out.
 
I just thought of another possibility, suggested to me by the print drum. You could use a Paterson tank and 20th century Camera reels to hold the paper, up to 10x8. I assume the paper will fit, but I'm willing to test this for you. The downside would be washing the fixer thoroughly out of the tank between prints, although this also applies to a drum.
 
StephenM said:
I just thought of another possibility, suggested to me by the print drum. You could use a Paterson tank and 20th century Camera reels to hold the paper, up to 10x8. I assume the paper will fit, but I'm willing to test this for you. The downside would be washing the fixer thoroughly out of the tank between prints, although this also applies to a drum.
Click to expand...
Thanks again @StephenM . A kind offer to test out your suggestion but now I've got the 10x12 trays on the way they will be great for 8x10.

They will fit nicely placed long ways on the wet bench, I'm guessing they are 12 x 14 max outside dimensions so there should be little or no overhang to minimise risk or being knocked over or falling off. If the width of the new trays introduces risk I will either make the bench an inch wider or add a raised outside edge. I'll spend another pound or two when getting the washing up bowls on a cheap domestic tray to aid transfer of the print from the top level to next shelf (to be) down washing level.

I realised when building it that such a small darkroom would bring limitations on what I could do in there and I'm happy to work within those constraints. After all I've the luxury of my own darkroom - the more I use it the more comfortable and familiar it becomes.
 
I've never had a darkroom with running water, except for a brief period when I struggled with an enlarger on the bathroom floor. I used either a bucket of water or a washng up bowl of water, and then transferred prints to the print washer (or tray) in the bath.
 
I used to put the prints from a session in a bucket and at the end throw them in the bath with the taps running for 5 minutes. I've got RC prints thirty years old that still look fine, despite such abuse! :naughty:
 
It’s a while w’since but I saw a racking system used on u tube ….. pretty homemade shelving system that enable the trays to be situated above each other thus minimizing the amount of area lost of the available work surface .
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I used to put the prints from a session in a bucket and at the end throw them in the bath with the taps running for 5 minutes. I've got RC prints thirty years old that still look fine, despite such abuse! :naughty:
Click to expand...
Similar here....can't see why Auntimaryscanary (erm haven't you got a shorter name ;)) could take the prints to the bathroom and let them float in the bath....I used to do that and worked for me, just stir them around now and again. The amusing bit was the living room furnture and floor was covered in newspapers with prints drying.
 
excalibur2 said:
Similar here....can't see why Auntimaryscanary (erm haven't you got a shorter name ;)) could take the prints to the bathroom and let them float in the bath....I used to do that and worked for me, just stir them around now and again. The amusing bit was the living room furnture and floor was covered in newspapers with prints drying.
Click to expand...
Happy to be abbreviated to AMC :)
Washing up bowl/ tray for print washing in darkroom will be just fine.

The darkroom is 90ft from the house and currently, and for the foreseeable future, part of the route between the 2 is unpaved and muddy. Add in going up the stairs to our only bathroom (shower over bath) and used by 2 school aged kids and my wife a bath full of prints ain't 'appening!
 
Just as a practical point, I used a bucket during my school/university days, because I had to go down two flights of stairs to reach the bathroom and a bucket has two advantages: it can be carried with one hand and it takes up a smaller area. The journey to the bathroom required passing through four doorways, two of the doors opening towards me. A washing up bowl or developing dish requires two hands unless it's empty.
 
Last edited:
auntiemaryscanary said:
Happy to be abbreviated to AMC :)
Washing up bowl/ tray for print washing in darkroom will be just fine.

The darkroom is 90ft from the house and currently, and for the foreseeable future, part of the route between the 2 is unpaved and muddy. Add in going up the stairs to our only bathroom (shower over bath) and used by 2 school aged kids and my wife a bath full of prints ain't 'appening!
Click to expand...
"Tweet" would be easier to remember :) and see your problem but just something amusing is when I lived with my parents and had boards across the bath with enlarger and trays and just dropped the prints into the bath, well the problem was the toilet was in the bathroom and my parents banging on the door wanting to use it :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for all the suggestions but I've no need or requirement for buckets and hosepipes or requisitioning the bath tub.

Anti-spill water reservoir max capacity 25l but can't ever see me needing more than 10- 12 litres per session for 8x10 prints.
IMG_20221125_155534080.jpg

5x7 print washing - Lidl's "Finest" range food containers with sealed lids x 3 and will fit on the wet bench along with the 3 smaller processing trays.
IMG_20221125_160503274.jpg

8x10 print washing - 3 x washing up bowls to be purchased at £1.40 each and placed on a yet to be built second shelf down under the wet bench.

Patented darkroom interior mud protection devices (TM) to be applied upon entering the main outer shed containing aforementioned darkroom
IMG_20221125_155701437.jpg

I need nowt else.

The PQ Universal has literally arrived so when time permits I will be trying some 5x7 wet prints - results of course will be shown.

"Ah, but..." says the massed toggers of the F,T&C section "What does that Tweety bird/AMC fella do for power?"

Answers:
1) extension lead for enlarger and the new safelight.
2) For ventilation and non safelighting - film loading, slitting etc (although I do have a non mains safelight) a selection of 12v batteries, 2 x 20w solar panels & charge controllers, 12v lights and a 12v fan with variable speed controller connected to 4" ducting is deployed.
 
Like the DIMPDs!!!
 
A pack of loft boarding was purchased yesterday and an updated wet side was completed this afternoon.

8x10 will be fine (dev trays are 10x12, plant gravel trays are 9x14 at their narrowest internals):
IMG_20221128_170707183_HDR.jpg

5x7 no problems:
IMG_20221128_170808014.jpg

10x12, hmmn possible but unlikely:
IMG_20221128_170531315_HDR.jpg

The current tool trays measure 11x16 narrowest internally. My easel is only 8x10 as well.

The other side with newly installed safelight and timer controller plus the Opemus 5:
IMG_20221128_172518479.jpg


Axomat 3 is under this bench. I will have to do some juggling round moving from storage and film deving to enlarging printing. The shelving is only secured with a couple of screws currently so I can remove it to seal the OSB - it will soak liquid like a sponge otherwise.

The 12v fan illuminated by a 12v light plus the 12v amp.
IMG_20221128_172756386_HDR.jpg

I've no excuse now but to get printing :)
 
Reading about AMC's darkroom gear triggered a memory of using my glazing machine for deep gloss on a print...threw it away years ago and can only remember (erm IIRC?) it was arc shaped, maybe heated ? and I think it held the print in place with a sorta of canvas cover stretched over and probably used for fibre based prints. Can't find anything on Ebay for a link for a picture........Ah memories erm handy if you have a good one (y)
 
excalibur2 said:
Reading about AMC's darkroom gear triggered a memory of using my glazing machine for deep gloss on a print...threw it away years ago and can only remember (erm IIRC?) it was arc shaped, maybe heated ? and I think it held the print in place with a sorta of canvas cover stretched over and probably used for fibre based prints. Can't find anything on Ebay for a link for a picture........Ah memories erm handy if you have a good one (y)
Click to expand...

I have one! It came with the Axomat 3 enlarger job lot. It can take large prints (probably upto 14").

As you say it has an arc top, is heated and there is a piece of suede like leather permanently attached along the back which has a steel rod at the front of leather which hooks at the front. The print then dries between the warm plate and the leather cover.

It took me a few uses to figure out why it wasn't currently useful to me. The heat discoloured & damaged the RC paper :)

There are a number for sale on that auction site. This more or less like mine
www.ebay.co.uk

Vintage Photax Popular Print Dryer and Glazer 10x10” | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Photax Popular Print Dryer and Glazer 10x10” at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.
www.ebay.co.uk

Edit - looking at them online I would say @excalibur2 is correct in that is a canvas overlay.
 
Last edited:
auntiemaryscanary said:
I have one! It came with the Axomat 3 enlarger job lot. It can take large prints (probably upto 14").

As you say it has an arc top, is heated and there is a piece of suede like leather permanently attached along the back which has a steel rod at the front of leather which hooks at the front. The print then dries between the warm plate and the leather cover.

It took me a few uses to figure out why it wasn't currently useful to me. The heat discoloured & damaged the RC paper :)

There are a number for sale on that auction site. This more or less like mine
www.ebay.co.uk

Vintage Photax Popular Print Dryer and Glazer 10x10” | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Photax Popular Print Dryer and Glazer 10x10” at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.
www.ebay.co.uk

Edit - looking at them online I would say @excalibur2 is correct in that is a canvas overlay.
Click to expand...
Well done (y) ......what I typed on ebay didn't produce any :rolleyes:
 
I never had a print glazer. I would have loved one as I had to glaze on glass, and prints stuck more often than not. Sloppy cleaning, I suppose, but I thought I did it well...

My main recollection of the warnings about glazers was to make sure prints were properly washed before glazing, to prevent contaminating the fabric on the glazer.
 
StephenM said:
I never had a print glazer. I would have loved one as I had to glaze on glass, and prints stuck more often than not. Sloppy cleaning, I suppose, but I thought I did it well...

My main recollection of the warnings about glazers was to make sure prints were properly washed before glazing, to prevent contaminating the fabric on the glazer.
Click to expand...
IF anyone wants mine for FB prints I can stick it on the for sale section for not much money. Otherwise I can donate it to a member on FT&C - other members have given me equipment in the past so would gladly return the favour.
 
Does your "tame" darkroom place have one? They might do a deal for it IF they want it. Or they might have a noticeboard so you could advertise it to the other customers.
 
Nod said:
Does your "tame" darkroom place have one? They might do a deal for it IF they want it. Or they might have a noticeboard so you could advertise it to the other customers.
Click to expand...
Not thought of that, I was at the tame darkroom this morning. I've not graduated from RC to FB... yet :)
 
Last edited:
Worth an ask - the worst they can do is say "No thanks."!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top