Portable lighting with 3 heads. Capable of capturing action.

FlyTVR

FlyTVR

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Right - I'm after some portable lighting. It must be capable of supporting 3 heads and stopping action e.g. somebody running.

So, what are the options? I am NOT interested in speed lights!

Ta.
 
FlyTVR said:
Right - I'm after some portable lighting. It must be capable of supporting 3 heads and stopping action e.g. somebody running.

So, what are the options? I am NOT interested in speed lights!

Ta.
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Elinchrom Quadra or Ranger, with A-heads. Lencarta Atom or SuperFasts*. Profoto B1.

There are quite a few others, they seem to be coming out of China almost everyday. Unknown brands though, uncertain performance/reliability/back-up.

*With portable battery pack.
 
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Many lights can be used to freeze action when used with the right triggers as I did here http://www.dorsetphotoevent.co.uk/studio-light-testing-48-hours-with-ilux-summit/ - I take it they will be running from one side of frame to the other and not towards or away. For a good athlete you need to hit 1/800 to 1/1000 - you could do that easily with lights like the iLux Summit, Safari Li-Ion (Not Safari 2) - remeber as you move to the shorter duration with such lights you will also lose some power so if also having to overpower daylight you will need the extra power such lights bring.

Mike
 
FlyTVR said:
Thanks guys. Do all these support 3 heads?
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No. For some of them you'll need to buy three of everything.

As Mike has hinted in his reply, this is not a straightforward question. There are no easy/cheap/good-all-round solutions to flash outdoors. It all depends on what you want to do and how much money and resource you're prepared to throw at it.

There is a lot of knowledge on here around this subject though. What do you want to do? Subject/situation? Budget? Can you post a link to an example pic?
 
Profoto B1's don't yet support high speed sync nor hypersync though it has decent flash duration specs. From experience the Lencarta Safari Li-Ons (old version) can and will do it (provided you have the right triggers) - the PW flex tt5's work well with it. One battery can power 2 heads but it splits power and if overpowering daylight you need the juice!
 
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kman said:
Profoto B1's don't yet support high speed sync nor hypersync though it has decent flash duration specs. From experience the Lencarta Safari Li-Ons (old version) can and will do it (provided you have the right triggers) - the PW flex tt5's work well with it. One battery can power 2 heads but it splits power and if overpowering daylight you need the juice!
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Profoto B1 is IGBT so has very short flash durations anyway, as you say. Drawbacks of IGBT in normal sync mode is the max x-sync shutter speed, and fastest flash durations are only available at lower power outputs.

High Speed Sync is another option allowing high shutter speeds to be used, but most of the power is wasted, so low effective output.

Ditto hypersync (tail-sync) except you get exposure fading down the frame as well. And it only works at full power so potentially less control.

Conventional flash with a fast duration can be good (eg Quadra A-head) providing the flash duration is short enough. Fastest durations are also available at highest light output which is handy, but shutter speed is capped at x-sync.
 
Just to add to the above, the Safari 2 has a flash duration of just 1/1500th (t.1) at full power. The Quadra, when fitted with A-heads, beats this with a flash duration of just 1/2500th sec, but only has half the power output of the Safari 2.
The Bron Scoro beats everything else, but at a very high cost.

As Richard pointed out, IGBT technology doesn't really work when used outdoors because the short flash durations are only available when turned down to low power, and you always need high power outdoors.

As Mike pointed out, a good workaround is to use tail end sync triggers outdoors, these allow a faster shutter speed than normal to be used, this does have some effect on the (effective) flash power when using really fast shutter speeds, but it has even more effect on the contribution of the ambient light, so can be the best solution. Incidentally, tail end sync triggers DO work with the Safari 2, I've tested the Yongnuo 622 with it.

If you're NOT using a tail end sync trigger then the flash duration becomes a moot point unless you're shooting at very low levels of ambient light, because if there's enough ambient light entering the camera at say 1/250th, then you'll get movement blur irrespective of the flash duration.
 
Garry Edwards said:
As Mike pointed out, a good workaround is to use tail end sync triggers outdoors, these allow a faster shutter speed than normal to be used, this does have some effect on the (effective) flash power when using really fast shutter speeds, but it has even more effect on the contribution of the ambient light, so can be the best solution. Incidentally, tail end sync triggers DO work with the Safari 2, I've tested the Yongnuo 622 with it.
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What camera and to what speed Garry?

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
What camera and to what speed Garry?

Mike
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I'm also interested, because my tests were disappointing, which I put down to the shutter mechanism due to the complete lack of uniformity of the results. (7d, YN622TX, Safari2)
 
mike weeks said:
What camera and to what speed Garry?

Mike
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D700 at up to 1/2000th, after that the exposure (indoors) was pretty uneven, although it would probably be fine outdoors with a 'busy' subject.
Another customer tried it with a D800E, at speeds up to 1/4000th, he said he was happy with the results but I haven't seen his pics.
 
Garry Edwards said:
D700 at up to 1/2000th, after that the exposure (indoors) was pretty uneven, although it would probably be fine outdoors with a 'busy' subject.
Another customer tried it with a D800E, at speeds up to 1/4000th, he said he was happy with the results but I haven't seen his pics.
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Sounds good as I found issues above 1/500 with a D800 using a commlite trigger set that worked perfectly with a Safari Li-Ion

I take it that the adjustment is done via a YN622N-TX and not the YN622N

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
Sounds good as I found issues above 1/500 with a D800 using a commlite trigger set that worked perfectly with a Safari Li-Ion

I take it that the adjustment is done via a YN622N-TX and not the YN622N

Mike
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Yes. Obviously the Safari 2 isn't as good at this as the previous model, the Safari Li-on, which had a longer flash duration - but it works.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes. Obviously the Safari 2 isn't as good at this as the previous model, the Safari Li-on, which had a longer flash duration - but it works.
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I might give it another go - but as I said before, for balancing the light the 3 stop ND is more reliable (a tip I owe you for Garry)
 
Hypersync/tail-sync can work well, but is very dependent on the equipment and situation.

It works best when using a long-duration flash, and a camera with fast-moving shutter. X-sync speed is a good guide to that, eg Nikon D700 at 1/250sec. It works less well with a fast flash duration like the Elinchrom Quadra with A-head and a slower camera like Canon 5D2 with max x-sync of 1/200sec; I'd say that combo was actually useless for tail-sync (S-head is much better) but conversely, in normal sync mode it could be the best solution.

Then the situation. In a studio with white background, the fading down the frame is very noticeable (you might see some colour shift too) but outdoors balanced with ambient light it's far less noticeable and pretty much invisible if the main subject is around the centre of the frame. Then you can even out the fading down the frame thing by using the inverse-square law. Exposure is always brighter at the bottom of the frame, so if the flash is positioned above the subject the ISL fall-off will counteract that. It's easier to optimise the position of the light if the camera is turned vertical and the flash is on the pentaprism side.

With both tail-sync/hypersync and high-speed sync in daylight, if the flash is basically bright enough to do the job, you can shoot at the highest shutter speeds as the flash is effectively working as continuous light. Increasing the shutter speed reduces both flash and ambient light in direct proportion.
 
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The no longer available Calumet Genesis 300B that I mentioned in another thread works brilliantly with the Yongnuo triggers for Hypersync/tail-sync with the Canon 5D3. Three of these would have been an excellent low cost option compared to the Elinchrom or Lencarta heads.
 
There's loads to chew on here. I'll obviously have to do some reading up. :)

My day job sort of kills my interest in technology, so when it comes to photography (as much as I can) I like to concentrate on taking images and leaving the tech side to others. In this case I doubt that'll be possible :(

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread - I really appreciate the time taken!

Mike - I have come to no conclusion yet!
 
FlyTVR said:
There's loads to chew on here. I'll obviously have to do some reading up. :)

My day job sort of kills my interest in technology, so when it comes to photography (as much as I can) I like to concentrate on taking images and leaving the tech side to others. In this case I doubt that'll be possible :(

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread - I really appreciate the time taken!

Mike - I have come to no conclusion yet!
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It's a bit of a holy grail, even with bottomless pockets, fast and powerful and portable might be an ask too much.
Fast and powerful is easy (Lencarta superfast, Profoto)
Powerful and portable is easy (Safari, Profoto B1Air, loads of others)
Fast and portable is easy (Atom, Godox 360, etc)

Loads of Safari's might be up to the job using hypersync, but I'm not certain there are conclusive tests for your camera, you'll need fast triggers to do it too.
 
Thanks Phil.

I like the look of the Lencarta Superfast. Forgetting portability for a second, if power was available, could these be used outside in dry conditions. I suspect the answer will be no :(

I know at the start of this thread I said I didn't want to use speedlights, but I'm starting to think a bag load of these YN-600 (replica jobbies) may be a cheaper more flexible option :(

I just hope other's find this thread helpful
 
FlyTVR said:
Thanks Phil.

I like the look of the Lencarta Superfast. Forgetting portability for a second, if power was available, could these be used outside in dry conditions. I suspect the answer will be no :(

I know at the start of this thread I said I didn't want to use speedlights, but I'm starting to think a bag load of these YN-600 (replica jobbies) may be a cheaper more flexible option :(

I just hope other's find this thread helpful
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Studio lights are fine outdoors with the obvious caveat re rain. Godox and Innovatronix make battery packs for the purpose.

A bunch of speedlites is a somewhat cumbersome alternative, but very effective. Full remote control, auto-TTL, proper HSS, second-curtain sync etc. Four big speedlites should give you around 400Ws equivalent. Lots of quad flash brackets around.
 
HoppyUK said:
Studio lights are fine outdoors with the obvious caveat re rain. Godox and Innovatronix make battery packs for the purpose.

A bunch of speedlites is a somewhat cumbersome alternative, but very effective. Full remote control, auto-TTL, proper HSS, second-curtain sync etc. Four big speedlites should give you around 400Ws equivalent. Lots of quad flash brackets around.
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Thanks Richard.

Interestingly, you say studio lights are fine outdoors. Is there a way of feeding a studio light clean power from a car? Also, what about cold days and condensation - I think that would worry me.
 
FlyTVR said:
Thanks Richard.

Interestingly, you say studio lights are fine outdoors. Is there a way of feeding a studio light clean power from a car? Also, what about cold days and condensation - I think that would worry me.
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Flash units tend to be very sensitive about a clean power supply and while those location battery packs are basically just a battery plus inverter, there's a lot more to it than that. It's certainly not an easy job, needs expert knowledge and right components. And you can't just plug them into a generator either. Risk of damage is high and costly - I wouldn't personally.

I wouldn't worry about condensation outside any more than in a cold studio first thing in the morning. And you get condensation going from cold to warm air, not the other way around. Just be sensible.
 
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FlyTVR said:
Thanks Phil.

I like the look of the Lencarta Superfast. Forgetting portability for a second, if power was available, could these be used outside in dry conditions. I suspect the answer will be no :(

I know at the start of this thread I said I didn't want to use speedlights, but I'm starting to think a bag load of these YN-600 (replica jobbies) may be a cheaper more flexible option :(

I just hope other's find this thread helpful
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Loads of people are using these outdoors, no problem. But I'm not sure that they will do YOUR job of freezing action effectively (depends on course of the speed of action, magnification and direction of travel) because you need to turn the 600 model down to quarter power to get something around 1/3000th second (t.1) - each head would then be effectively 150Ws, or around twice the power of a big speedlight when at full power - would that work for you?

The same problem, but in italics, if you cobble a number of speedlights together - they are of course also IGBT so the power would have to be turned down very low to get action stopping potential.

Pity that you're as far away as Gloucestershire, even so it might be an idea to visit us and try out both the SuperFast and the Safari for yourself, with someone (not me:)) running in our car park...
 
Have a look at this video of Dave Black using eight Nikon guns in HSS mode for motoX :)

 
1/1000th of a second would be sufficient for me Garry. Realistically would 1/1000th be doable with the Smartflash at full wack?
 
FlyTVR said:
1/1000th of a second would be sufficient for me Garry. Realistically would 1/1000th be doable with the Smartflash at full wack?
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No, but nearly -the SmartFlash 2 produces 1/900th at full power - but that's a t.1 time, most sellers would quote the t.5 time, which is 1/2700th.
 
1/1000sec flash duration is not that hard to achieve, and with good power, but the other problem is x-sync shutter speed and ambient light ghosting.
 
Sorry for delay. Busy with the day job.

Mike, I can't really give you an example image, but I'm looking at capturing dance images.

Richard - thanks again for the input. I'm not to bothered about ambient - I can control that. With regards to xsync - would I get around about 1/1000th of a second using a Canon 5D3, Lencarta Smartflash 2 and Lencarta triggers?
 
FlyTVR said:
Sorry for delay. Busy with the day job.

Mike, I can't really give you an example image, but I'm looking at capturing dance images.

Richard - thanks again for the input. I'm not to bothered about ambient - I can control that. With regards to xsync - would I get around about 1/1000th of a second using a Canon 5D3, Lencarta Smartflash 2 and Lencarta triggers?
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Yes, near enough. I tested a Smartflash-2 recently for a magazine review and the durations I got compared to actual shutter speeds were effectively the same as Garry's t.1 times as published on the Lencarta website, ie 1/900sec at full power, but getting significantly longer at lower settings.

Another studio head with notably faster durations than average is the Elinchrom BXR-250, ranging between 1/1300sec at full power to 1/900sec at min. The bigger BXR-500 is also fastish for the power, running from 1/900sec to 1/700sec. I've not tested the faster Bowens Gemini Pro heads.

As a comment, I would guess that 1/1000sec was marginal for a dancer if you want to freeze everything. Hands and feet will probably be slightly blurred, and while I think that actually looks quite good when everything else is sharp, it's a consideration. I tested the Elinchrom Quadra with faster A-head at 1/2500sec at quarter power, 1/1200sec at full power, and 1/2000sec at min (depending on how the capacitors are configured). You can hire Elinchroms from TheFlashCentre of course.
 
Dav - give me a call re this. I can give you a couple of suggestions once I know the specifics!

(ps yes I did get your package & rudely forgot to reply!)

:)
 
DemiLion said:
Dav - give me a call re this. I can give you a couple of suggestions once I know the specifics!

(ps yes I did get your package & rudely forgot to reply!)

:)
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Blimin heck Mark, you make me sound like a drug dealer ;)

Will give you a call :)
 
Garry Edwards said:
D700 at up to 1/2000th, after that the exposure (indoors) was pretty uneven, although it would probably be fine outdoors with a 'busy' subject.
Another customer tried it with a D800E, at speeds up to 1/4000th, he said he was happy with the results but I haven't seen his pics.
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Garry try as I might I can not get close to this so would love to hear more about the customers set up as I would not say I am happy with 1/1000 using a D800

Mike
 
Hi Mike - I tested the Safari II with a YN622N / YN622N-TX combination with a D800E, in Lencarta's studio up to 1/8000th - I didn't keep those shots, however I found I could balance the position of the 2nd curtain with a reasonable fall off at the other end of he shot. Now, inside, where that flash was the only thing lighting the picture, this wouldn't be even enough. However outside, with ambient light in the picture, it isn't really a problem, and can be an advantage if you remember where the flash-dark parts will be. Place your flash-lit subject in the "flash zone" in the middle of the frame, and so long as there's nothing but background in the flash-dark parts, they won'e be affected, as the flash light wouldn't be reaching them anyway. I reckon the lit part of my tests was wide enough up to around 1/4000th, and very usable at 1/1500th.
 
Scooter said:
Hi Mike - I tested the Safari II with a YN622N / YN622N-TX combination with a D800E, in Lencarta's studio up to 1/8000th - I didn't keep those shots, however I found I could balance the position of the 2nd curtain with a reasonable fall off at the other end of he shot. Now, inside, where that flash was the only thing lighting the picture, this wouldn't be even enough. However outside, with ambient light in the picture, it isn't really a problem, and can be an advantage if you remember where the flash-dark parts will be. Place your flash-lit subject in the "flash zone" in the middle of the frame, and so long as there's nothing but background in the flash-dark parts, they won'e be affected, as the flash light wouldn't be reaching them anyway. I reckon the lit part of my tests was wide enough up to around 1/4000th, and very usable at 1/1500th.
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I am one of those that the proof is in the eating, no image and therefore no EXIF makes it difficult to repeat, I have tried various things and it does not work for me - for me the whole frame is the flash zone. I can adjust to light part of the frame but all of it - second question is at what power was the Safari? lower power has a longer flash duration and a better chance of success but as you have already lost so much power it is hardly worth the effort. I tried every possible setting on the 622N-TX

Form Lencartas site

Flash duration at full power, t.5. 1/4500th sec

Flash duration at full power, t.1. 1/1500th sec

and those flash durations are just too brief to do long tail sync well

The Lencarta Safari Li-ION was about 1/800 t=0.5 at full power and that worked really well and of course the atom 360 is about 1/300 from what I have read and again works well

Mike
 
Scooter said:
Hi Mike - I tested the Safari II with a YN622N / YN622N-TX combination with a D800E, in Lencarta's studio up to 1/8000th - I didn't keep those shots, however I found I could balance the position of the 2nd curtain with a reasonable fall off at the other end of he shot. Now, inside, where that flash was the only thing lighting the picture, this wouldn't be even enough. However outside, with ambient light in the picture, it isn't really a problem, and can be an advantage if you remember where the flash-dark parts will be. Place your flash-lit subject in the "flash zone" in the middle of the frame, and so long as there's nothing but background in the flash-dark parts, they won'e be affected, as the flash light wouldn't be reaching them anyway. I reckon the lit part of my tests was wide enough up to around 1/4000th, and very usable at 1/1500th.
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mike weeks said:
I am one of those that the proof is in the eating, no image and therefore no EXIF makes it difficult to repeat, I have tried various things and it does not work for me - for me the whole frame is the flash zone. I can adjust to light part of the frame but all of it - second question is at what power was the Safari? lower power has a longer flash duration and a better chance of success but as you have already lost so much power it is hardly worth the effort. I tried every possible setting on the 622N-TX

Form Lencartas site

Flash duration at full power, t.5. 1/4500th sec

Flash duration at full power, t.1. 1/1500th sec

and those flash durations are just too brief to do long tail sync well

The Lencarta Safari Li-ION was about 1/800 t=0.5 at full power and that worked really well and of course the atom 360 is about 1/300 from what I have read and again works well

Mike
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FWIW, I was present when Owen took those test shots and can confirm his findings. I have also been present when other people have done the same test with different models of camera, and again it worked.
Owen was at our studio for a different purpose entirely, and did this test at the end of the day's shoot. The shots he took were of the white wall, complete with doors, at the start of the studio area and there is no reason why anyone would want to keep those shots - they were however a good test, because a white wall will show up the very worst characteristcs of a tail end flash trigger. In the real world, busy subjects (and especially where ambient light is also present) make the whole thing much more forgiving.

I accept that the new Safari 2, with its short flash durations, is less suited to tail end sync than slower flashes, that's the price of progress:) - but it did work with the tested equipment. And I can confirm that it works just as well with the D700, D3 and D4, it will probably work with most Nikon cameras but I can't confirm that as I haven't been able to test any others. I fully accept though that there are likely to be problems with cameras that have slower shutters, that's obvious.

Open invitation
Anyone who has a YN-622N and any Nikon camera, or a YN-622C and any Canon camera, is welcome to come to the Lencarta studio by arrangement and test it for themselves
 
Sorry Garry but when compared to the Safari Li-Ion or even the Atom 360 it is so poor that you might as well say it does not work from all of my tests ( I am not alone in finding this). Nothing wrong with the flash, that is how it was designed and this technique is attempting to give an extra. Perhaps next time somebody does one of these tests against the white wall the EXIF and the trigger system settings can be shared to see if others can repeat - it is after all to all users benefit if we can come up with settings that can achieve this.

Mike
 
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