Poice and court woes

[Garry Edwards]

Stopped by police, just over a year ago . . .

“Your MOT ran out 3 days ago”

“It passed the test 3 days ago, it should be showing on your computer”

“The computer database isn’t showing it, it would be there if it had passed the test.”

“You do know that it’s a HGV, could it be on a different database?” (it was on a different database but she didn't check it. HGV classification pointed out because there are some similar-looking horseboxes that aren't as heavy and aren't classified as HGV)

It would be showing up if it had passed. Do you have the certificate with you?”

“No, all vehicle documents are filed away at home, I don’t need to carry it with me and I don’t”

“There’s a lot of mud, it wouldn’t have passed the test with that mud there”

“It’s a farm vehicle, it will have been muddy by the time it got back to the farm”

“I can get our vehicle examiner out, if it’s dangerous then we’ll seize it”

“Feel free, a fully qualified MOT tester has passed it, and HGV testing is very thorough“

After nearly 2 hours of wasted time . . .

“OK, I don’t have time to waste on this so I’m going to allow you to turn around and drive it home. Don’t drive it again until it’s passed the test”

“I’m not going to do that, I have a long drive, I’m driving through the night and I’m going to keep going”

“OK, you’ve had your chance, you’ll be getting papers through the post”

Nothing heard for many months, then a letter stating that I had failed to attend Court and had been fined in my absence. It later turned out that the court papers had been sent to an address that was over 9 years out of date, 6 years before we bought the vehicle, don’t even know how the police or court had that address.

Started the appeal process, sent a copy of the MOT to the court, had a phone conversation with the court a couple of days ago, was told that I have to appear before the court in person, and the court will then make its decision. The Hearing will be at Harrogate, where all of the cases in N. Yorkshire are heard, 65 miles away.

It would have been much easier just to pay the £100 fixed penalty than to have it drag on for more than a year (so far) and have all this hassle, no doubt that’s why most people just give up.

Arrogant and bullying police officer who was too lazy to check the correct database, and then aggravated by a courts system that isn’t fit for purpose.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Arrogant and bullying police officer who was too lazy to check the correct database, and then aggravated by a courts system that isn’t fit for purpose.

You have my full sympathy, as I had a vaguely similar experience many years ago.

I was involved in a collision with a HGV at a spot well known for such events, which were almost always caused by cross winds. Despite many people asking for signs to warn drivers about the hazard none had been installed and so far as I know, none have been installed yet.

Despite the HGV driver and his mate telling the investigating officer, in my hearing, that it was a no-fault collision, I was charged with dangerous driving, a court date was set and I showed up with my solicitor, who was both my wife's boss and a one time clerk to the court. To the surprise of no-one except the prosecuting solicitor, none of the prosecution witnesses (apart from the policeman) showed up, my solicitor let the officer display his ignorance and the magistrates took less than a minute to find me not guilty, awarding me full costs and expenses.

It was a terrible waste of resources and was entirely unnecessary. My solicitor had a brief chat with the current clerk, who he knew well, and relayed the information that the senior magistrate was furious because this was the third time in a month that particular officer had caused such a waste of time. Most police officers are highly professional but a few slip through all the testing and get out onto the streets.

I hope you win your appeal and when you do, take the time and trouble to complain about that particular officer. It's the only way their boss will find out there's a problem.

 

[Box Brownie]

Stopped by police, just over a year ago . . .

“Your MOT ran out 3 days ago”

“It passed the test 3 days ago, it should be showing on your computer”

“The computer database isn’t showing it, it would be there if it had passed the test.”

“You do know that it’s a HGV, could it be on a different database?” (it was on a different database but she didn't check it. HGV classification pointed out because there are some similar-looking horseboxes that aren't as heavy and aren't classified as HGV)

It would be showing up if it had passed. Do you have the certificate with you?”

“No, all vehicle documents are filed away at home, I don’t need to carry it with me and I don’t”

“There’s a lot of mud, it wouldn’t have passed the test with that mud there”

“It’s a farm vehicle, it will have been muddy by the time it got back to the farm”

“I can get our vehicle examiner out, if it’s dangerous then we’ll seize it”

“Feel free, a fully qualified MOT tester has passed it, and HGV testing is very thorough“

After nearly 2 hours of wasted time . . .

“OK, I don’t have time to waste on this so I’m going to allow you to turn around and drive it home. Don’t drive it again until it’s passed the test”

“I’m not going to do that, I have a long drive, I’m driving through the night and I’m going to keep going”

“OK, you’ve had your chance, you’ll be getting papers through the post”

Nothing heard for many months, then a letter stating that I had failed to attend Court and had been fined in my absence. It later turned out that the court papers had been sent to an address that was over 9 years out of date, 6 years before we bought the vehicle, don’t even know how the police or court had that address.

Started the appeal process, sent a copy of the MOT to the court, had a phone conversation with the court a couple of days ago, was told that I have to appear before the court in person, and the court will then make its decision. The Hearing will be at Harrogate, where all of the cases in N. Yorkshire are heard, 65 miles away.

It would have been much easier just to pay the £100 fixed penalty than to have it drag on for more than a year (so far) and have all this hassle, no doubt that’s why most people just give up.

Arrogant and bullying police officer who was too lazy to check the correct database, and then aggravated by a courts system that isn’t fit for purpose.

You have my full sympathy, as I had a vaguely similar experience many years ago.

I was involved in a collision with a HGV at a spot well known for such events, which were almost always caused by cross winds. Despite many people asking for signs to warn drivers about the hazard none had been installed and so far as I know, none have been installed yet.

Despite the HGV driver and his mate telling the investigating officer, in my hearing, that it was a no-fault collision, I was charged with dangerous driving, a court date was set and I showed up with my solicitor, who was both my wife's boss and a one time clerk to the court. To the surprise of no-one except the prosecuting solicitor, none of the prosecution witnesses (apart from the policeman) showed up, my solicitor let the officer display his ignorance and the magistrates took less than a minute to find me not guilty, awarding me full costs and expenses.

It was a terrible waste of resources and was entirely unnecessary. My solicitor had a brief chat with the current clerk, who he knew well, and relayed the information that the senior magistrate was furious because this was the third time in a month that particular officer had caused such a waste of time. Most police officers are highly professional but a few slip through all the testing and get out onto the streets.

I hope you win your appeal and when you do, take the time and trouble to complain about that particular officer. It's the only way their boss will find out there's a problem.

Are not these the sort of "cases" that need to be brought to the attention of the PCC

Police and crime commissioners

Contact your police and crime commissioner (PCC) to make a suggestion on how your local area is policed or complain about your PCC.

www.gov.uk

And possibly local MPs ???

 

[Harriers9]

Had one years ago when a car pulled out in front of me and I broadsided her from a couple of yards away with the skid marks proving that. She got out wearing stiletto heels.

Police arrived, measured up and told me I was speeding. When I pointed out the possible inability to control a vehicle by the girl they ignored me. I was charged with dangerous driving and it went to court where my solicitor told me I hadn't got a leg to stand on. When I asked why he said it was because her father was a lawyer (but not on this case) and he was also a freemason. He called a favour in and I had a fine and points.

I got the feeling afterwards that maybe the police knew who this young lady and her daddy was.

 

[woof woof]

Arrogant and bullying police officer who was too lazy to check the correct database, and then aggravated by a courts system that isn’t fit for purpose.

None of this should surprise us.

Good luck.

 

[TheFiend]

I once got stopped after being chased by a police car whilst I was driving a coach.... The copper said he watched me drive along a road with a 7.5T weight limit restriction.... I said yes, I did drive along it but told him that sign only applies to HGV's and not PCV's and also that there was a bus stop on that road and buses used it.....Despite my protestations he still issued me a ticket......... I informed my brother, it was his company and he was the CPC holder what happened when I got back to the depot..... Within an hour we got notification the ticket had been cancelled and given an apology for stopping me......

 

[Mr Bump]

devils advocate here: a professional business and you did your MOT on a business vehicle the day it ran out?
very poor judgement in my eyes

 

[Garry Edwards]

No, as per my post it was 3 days, and it was a re-test, which took time to get.

devils advocate here: a professional business and you did your MOT on a business vehicle the day it ran out?
very poor judgement in my eyes

 

[Mr Bump]

Sounds like you left it to close to the wire and the police were just doing there job.

 

[LeeRatters]

Sounds like you left it to close to the wire and the police were just doing there job.

Well, it doesn't sound like they done it very well

 

[Mr Bump]

Well, it doesn't sound like they done it very well

maybe so but we all complain like buggery when there not doing anything but driving arround in posh bmw cars

 

[Suvv]

How did the police officer "know" that the MOT ran out 3 days before if she was looking at the wrong database?

 

[Mr Bump]

How did the police officer "know" that the MOT ran out 3 days before if she was looking at the wrong database?

well said , it would have had to show up on said database to say it was expired.

 

[Box Brownie]

How did the police officer "know" that the MOT ran out 3 days before if she was looking at the wrong database?

well said , it would have had to show up on said database to say it was expired.

Where @Garry Edwards says 'he was stopped' implies either an ANPR flagged him or the officer made a radio enquiry to their HQ support. I am inclined to think ANPR, afteral he was not stopped for a visually problematic reason.

In the case of the former (and possibly also the latter) perhaps there was (still is?) a mis-match of databases, such that the apparent police usage reference one was a subset of the main HGV MoT database and did not update in "real time" from the primary MoT database.

The above is of course supposition but computer databases can get out of sync especially if they are not managed in a proper manner!
NB think about the continuing issues of uncoordinated NHS databases re: regional to nationality shared patient data???

The question raised is good one but clearly there was a mis-match that that police officer was relying on!

 

[lindsay]

Mobile ANPR (in police cars) is only updated every 24 hours (approx), from the main APR db which is updated in real time from cameras and is searched in real time from PNC. The DVLA update to ANPR is every 24 hours too. At least all of this used to be the case 6 years ago when I was testing all those systems.

 

[Eucris]

The problem with threads like this is that we only get to hear one side of the the story. We do not know the other sides version of events.

Something that I don’t understand is why the OP thinks that Harrogate is 65 miles away from Bradford. According to Google maps it is a 20 mile journey.

The Hearing will be at Harrogate, where all of the cases in N. Yorkshire are heard, 65 miles away.

 

[Garry Edwards]

The problem with threads like this is that we only get to hear one side of the the story. We do not know the other sides version of events.

Something that I don’t understand is why the OP thinks that Harrogate is 65 miles away from Bradford. According to Google maps it is a 20 mile journey.

I live a few miles from Bradford but the vehicle is based at our farm near Scarborough, 65 miles from Harrogate.

 

[Clive K]

Stopped by police, just over a year ago . . .

“Your MOT ran out 3 days ago”

“It passed the test 3 days ago, it should be showing on your computer”

“The computer database isn’t showing it, it would be there if it had passed the test.”

“You do know that it’s a HGV, could it be on a different database?” (it was on a different database but she didn't check it. HGV classification pointed out because there are some similar-looking horseboxes that aren't as heavy and aren't classified as HGV)

It would be showing up if it had passed. Do you have the certificate with you?”

“No, all vehicle documents are filed away at home, I don’t need to carry it with me and I don’t”

“There’s a lot of mud, it wouldn’t have passed the test with that mud there”

“It’s a farm vehicle, it will have been muddy by the time it got back to the farm”

“I can get our vehicle examiner out, if it’s dangerous then we’ll seize it”

“Feel free, a fully qualified MOT tester has passed it, and HGV testing is very thorough“

After nearly 2 hours of wasted time . . .

“OK, I don’t have time to waste on this so I’m going to allow you to turn around and drive it home. Don’t drive it again until it’s passed the test”

“I’m not going to do that, I have a long drive, I’m driving through the night and I’m going to keep going”

“OK, you’ve had your chance, you’ll be getting papers through the post”

Nothing heard for many months, then a letter stating that I had failed to attend Court and had been fined in my absence. It later turned out that the court papers had been sent to an address that was over 9 years out of date, 6 years before we bought the vehicle, don’t even know how the police or court had that address.

Started the appeal process, sent a copy of the MOT to the court, had a phone conversation with the court a couple of days ago, was told that I have to appear before the court in person, and the court will then make its decision. The Hearing will be at Harrogate, where all of the cases in N. Yorkshire are heard, 65 miles away.

It would have been much easier just to pay the £100 fixed penalty than to have it drag on for more than a year (so far) and have all this hassle, no doubt that’s why most people just give up.

Arrogant and bullying police officer who was too lazy to check the correct database, and then aggravated by a courts system that isn’t fit for purpose.

First question is whether you have your current address on the vehicle registration document? That is the address the court documents should have been posted to. If you have then the hearing will be a formality and you should be cleared of the offences. Unfortunately the hearing has to be in the office where the offences (were alledged) to have taken place and you have to be there. Once you have been formally cleared of the offences I suggest that you write to the Chief Constable and outline a fair and reasonable sum of money that you have suffered as a loss in respect of your court appearance; loss of wages, fuel, parking, etc. Ask to be reimbursed. If that is refused then you can claim through the Small Claims Court. But, your letter will have a secondary purpose in that all involved in the prosecution will be subject to the CC's scrutiny.

 

[LeeRatters]

First question is whether you have your current address on the vehicle registration document? That is the address the court documents should have been posted to. If you have then the hearing will be a formality and you should be cleared of the offences. Unfortunately the hearing has to be in the office where the offences (were alledged) to have taken place and you have to be there. Once you have been formally cleared of the offences I suggest that you write to the Chief Constable and outline a fair and reasonable sum of money that you have suffered as a loss in respect of your court appearance; loss of wages, fuel, parking, etc. Ask to be reimbursed. If that is refused then you can claim through the Small Claims Court. But, your letter will have a secondary purpose in that all involved in the prosecution will be subject to the CC's scrutiny.

Re -read what you quoted.

 

[Garry Edwards]

First question is whether you have your current address on the vehicle registration document? That is the address the court documents should have been posted to. If you have then the hearing will be a formality and you should be cleared of the offences. Unfortunately the hearing has to be in the office where the offences (were alledged) to have taken place and you have to be there. Once you have been formally cleared of the offences I suggest that you write to the Chief Constable and outline a fair and reasonable sum of money that you have suffered as a loss in respect of your court appearance; loss of wages, fuel, parking, etc. Ask to be reimbursed. If that is refused then you can claim through the Small Claims Court. But, your letter will have a secondary purpose in that all involved in the prosecution will be subject to the CC's scrutiny.

Yes, address was correct and unchanged since 2014, long before we bought the truck

I understand the system, but it favours the police and the courts not the public and is a huge waste of time.
The system knows that no offence was committed and knows that their documents were sent to the wrong address but I still have to waste a day proving it in person and can only claim £19 per hour

As for complaining, this is North Yorkshire Police, with very high turnover of senior staff and very poor customer service.

 

[Mr Bump]

wots

Poice​

 

[Nod]

What's "wots"?

 

[Garry Edwards]

Update: The case was heard yesterday, fortunately the snow allowed a hybrid hearing (attended via internet).
The police threw in the towel, but not in advance, wasting more time and money.
Costs recovered, £642.12

 

[Box Brownie]

Update: The case was heard yesterday, fortunately the snow allowed a hybrid hearing (attended via internet).
The police threw in the towel, but not in advance, wasting more time and money.
Costs recovered, £642.12

Pleased to hear it was resolved appropriately and you got equitable(?) costs.

I do wonder if the local Police & Crime Commissioner and the MP whose constituency you and/or the constabulary HQ is in would like to comment about the fiasco of this?

Oh, and what about the Home Secretary?

 

[PeteNaples]

I got a speeding ticket in Cumbria, 2004 I think it was.
Whilst my car was in the long stay at Edinburgh Airport, I was in Ireland on a job.

When I got the NIP, I asked for the photographic evidence and calibration certificate of the device. The device was in calibration, just.

But the photograph was of a Ford Transit van. It did bear my number plate, the only other similarity is the maker. I drove a Ford Focus at the time.

I called Cumbria Police and asked them in light of this that the ticket would be dropped. No, they said.
'Take me to court' I said. Much to my amazement, they did!

I had to appear at court in Carlisle. The whole thing took less than 5 minutes, the judge/magistrate (I'm not sure what they are, I'm from Fife, Scotland. We have a slightly different system), had read all the paperwork before the hearing. She was deeply un-impressed, especially as it turned out Cumbria Police had found said van abandoned and partially burned out. Still with my number plate on it, multiple other cloned plates inside and the vehicle was in fact stolen.

I was awarded a small sum for my costs, didn't even cover the train fare. But there was a principle at stake.

For the next year or so, util I changed the car, every time I was in Cumbria or passed through on the M6, guarantee I would get a tug for 'routine checks'. Quite clearly harassement because they had made themselves look like idiots in court and were seeking revenge in some churlish manner. I made a complaint, received a snooty, form reply stating that they did not operate a list unless the vehicle was known to have been used in crime. Don't know it made any odds as the engine in that car destroyed itself and I replaced it with an Octavia.

I'm not anti-Police, far from it. They have at times a very difficule job which I would not thank you for.
However, I was brought up to own my mistakes, apologise, learn and move on. I think Joe Public would have far more respect for them if they did that.
To err is after all, human. To forgive is divine, they say.

I hold firearms, shotgun and airweapons certificates. The involves quite some interaction with my local force, on the whole they are great, once or twice I've had to deal with officers who did not have the requisite knowledge, and would not admit to it. Thankfully the PC who I deal with now a; is an ex squaddy so has 'hands on' experience, b; has good knowledge, c; when comes up against something he isn't 100% on, will research and return with the facts. That's quite rare in most walks of life!

 

[woof woof]

Update: The case was heard yesterday, fortunately the snow allowed a hybrid hearing (attended via internet).
The police threw in the towel, but not in advance, wasting more time and money.
Costs recovered, £642.12

Someone should be sacked or at least sent on a course.

 

[woof woof]

For the next year or so, util I changed the car, every time I was in Cumbria or passed through on the M6, guarantee I would get a tug for 'routine checks'. Quite clearly harassement because they had made themselves look like idiots in court and were seeking revenge in some churlish manner. I made a complaint, received a snooty, form reply stating that they did not operate a list unless the vehicle was known to have been used in crime. Don't know it made any odds as the engine in that car destroyed itself and I replaced it with an Octavia.

The thing is that there seem to be so many examples of Police and maybe authority in general being wrong but persisting with petty and vindictive behaviour that these days it's tempting to believe anyone over the police/authorities in disputes.