Pocket Wizards or Radio Poppers? (again!)

lifethroughalens

lifethroughalens

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Rod
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Hi there,

I know that this was discussed a few months back, but as a bit if time has passed I thought i'd ask user opinions on the two systems. I'm about to invest in a set; 1 transmitter 2x receivers.

I'm a Canon shooter who already owns the ST-E2 and 3 580EX's. I have read and re-read everything I can find on the topic and must say that i'm leaning towards importing the EU Radio Poppers over the PocketWizard Mini & Flex kit for various reasons; range, reliability, not camera specific etc...

I was wondering if anyone had actually imported these directly from RP's USA to the UK and what the experience was like, were you hit with VAT, support OK out of the US, and overall experience?

The RP's are $250 a throw - so $750 + postage + VAT @20% = Approx £600 in the UK (with a distance warranty situation!)

The PocketWizard Mini and Flex Kit is £489 at warehouseexpress with a UK warranty.

I suppose the obvious question is - do users rate the Radio Poppers sytem enough to warrant the premium for a UK buyer?

Many thanks :)
Rod
 
I think the PW reliability issues are now over, and I'm not sure how much the range problems applied to UK spec anyway.

RP is a clumsy thing and needs a donor master unit, adding to cost. And because it's a piggy-back onto the Canon system, it cannot do the really clever stuff that PWs can - hypersync, optimised HSS etc though these things work better on some models than others.

BTW I don't have either. Thought about PWs but actually I don't need them and the trick stuff doesn't benefit my slow old 5D2 so much - great on a 7D or 1D3/4 though :)
 
Thanks for the reply - I think the PW's have an ongoing issue which is the frequencies they use are 344-430 MHz, which are very prone to interference - hence the use of isolation 'socks' to protect the flash from RF interference. I don't know, just appears that the PW system is a tad...flawed.

The RP's PX system supports HSS and I already own the ST-E2 so that's easy for me to use that as the IR-RF slave at no extra cost. But I agree that they are just a bit of a 'clumsy' solution. But at least I can use the RP's on Canon & Nikon kit, should I decide to leave Canon.

So it's slightly flawed vrs slightly clumsy :shrug: :)
 
I don't think anyone has done comprehensive range testing of the EU spec PWs. Nothing like www.robgalbraith.com that I've seen for sure, and I've been told by authoritative sources (eg http://michaelbass.blogspot.com/ who does the RF mods for US guns) that the affected frequencies are very narrow. I would be prepared to take a punt on that, and get my guns modded if needs be.

On the other hand, I've recently had a thought about using the shoot-through facility with one of the new cheaper triggers, eg Yongnuo RF-603 and Phottix Stato II (see here http://flashraw.com/review-phottix-strato-ii-multi-wireless-flash-trigger/ ). My thinking is based on the idea that with multiple remote slave flashes, what I actually do is set up the slaves and leave them as they are. They don't need to change, because they are usually lighting the background, and that doesn't move.

However, the main key-light does need to change, but that's on the camera and retains full E-TTL via the shoot-through (or attached to a short cord if needs be). I also think that working in this way, the gun on top of the trigger will pull either a HSS or second-curtain firing pulse out of the camera and transmit that via radio. Maybe. I've tried something similar and it works, but not with the Phottix which are very new. They do look nice though, better than the Yongnuos - $100 a pair.

But if the RPs work for you... :thumbs: (Shame about the loss of hypersync etc.)
 
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Thanks for the reply HoppyUK - you're post motivated me to find out what the hell hypersync was, I thought it was the same as HSS with the Canon system.

Sounds like those Phottix triggers could be a good deal, i've just been through quite a few manual solutions from cables and adapters to strange sounding Taiwanese radio senders - I'm looking forward to being really lazy and having full ETTL on tap! :)

I'm still totally undecided on PW's or RP's! I spoke to the RP's team in the US via email, they were quick and courteous which is a good sign. Postage to the UK is $35-$40 for all 3 items together (1 trans 2 receivers ) and they are unsure if VAT (extra £100) will have to be paid on top.

Apparently the EU spec Radio Poppers function at 900Mhz as opposed to 430Mhz for EU spec PocketWizards - thus greater range and less interference. The US PW's suffer more as they are down in the 300Mhz range.

I think that the simplicity of the RP's and flexibility to function with Nikon and Canon gear might just trump the PW's Hypersync feature...aghhhhh, I hate pulling the trigger on this one! :D
 
If you've "read and re-read everything" ;) except Rob Galbraith, then you need to put that right. His site isn't the easiest to navigate but there's a lot of very good stuff on PWs there. You need to know what hypersync and optimised high speed sync and customised second curtain sync can do for you, with your particular model of camera. Those are the really unique features of the PW system, and definite deal makers or breakers if you can make use of them. At least they are with Canon; I don't think the Nikon PWs do all this stuff due to their different internal oparating system. Major advantage to Canon here (for once :D).

Range has nothing to do with frequency and PWs have massive range, or their regular Plus-II does anyway. They would argue that they chose their frequency in the first place because it is least liable to external interference from other sources - taxi ranks and mobiles etc - and they've kept it to retain backwards compatability. It's ironic that they then ran into problems with some Canon guns, not all of them but including your 580EX, though there are ways around that.

If you're uncertain about anything, email PW - you'll find them very prompt and helpful.

It probably sounds like I'm pushing PWs but I'm not. I admire their technology and the cool extra features they offer can make a huge difference - if you need them. Hypersync for example - if you can get an extra 2/3rds of a stop faster x-sync, that's like almost doubling your flash power when battling the sun, or shooting fill-flash action. You'll get shots that others cannot. But RPs certainly work - radio E-TTL, no frills, just reliability and range. Can't be bad :thumbs:
 
HoppyUK said:
if you can get an extra 2/3rds of a stop faster x-sync, that's like almost doubling your flash power when battling the sun, or shooting fill-flash action. You'll get shots that others cannot. But RPs certainly work - radio E-TTL, no frills, just reliability and range. Can't be bad :thumbs:
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Thanks again - you're right on the Hypersync, that is a very appealing feature, especially when using speedlights. I shoot with a 5D2 and 1DMK3, corporate, cars, events and reportage editorial - i think that the PW's advanced features could be really useful if it means that I can lug less gear around on some shoots, I often have to travel light on a lot of my shoots - ie just use the speedlights.

I'm swinging opinions like a wind vane in a storm...as usual I think the best option is for me to buy local and suck'em & see :) I'll get this kit on warehouseexpress.com and see how they perform.

Thank you for your nudge & advice :thumbs:

Cheers, Rod

Edit: I just saw the AC3 ZoneController for Canon - WOW! That IS a deal clincher, I can think of so many shoots when this would have been a massive time saver. I finally took the plunge and got the AC3 as well, all arriving on Tuesday. I will report back on my purchase :)
 
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You're welcome Rod :)

They now have automatic camera model sensing, so you can switch between your two bodies without messing. 1D3 really makes best use of their clever stuff :thumbs:

"I just saw the AC3 ZoneController" :eek:
 
lifethroughalens said:
Hi there,

I know that this was discussed a few months back, but as a bit if time has passed I thought i'd ask user opinions on the two systems.
Click to expand...
Not at all, this is perfect timing, I'm trying to choose myself too. There's very little comparing what the market has to offer.
i'm leaning towards importing the EU Radio Poppers over the PocketWizard Mini & Flex kit for various reasons; range, reliability, not camera specific etc...
Click to expand...
Camera specific, yes, if you think you might switch brands. But cameras on both sides are so good these days, if you're happy, why would you switch.
Range - I've seen youtube comparisons where the PWs were awful, but I assume that's all sorted now - they should be good for a few hundred feet.
Reliability - PWs were the most reliable products on the market, these reliability issues were with the new products. If they haven't been addressed yet, then RPs are probably the best choice, but I'd hope PWs are now reliable too.

The RP's = Approx £600
Click to expand...
Ouch.

The PocketWizard Mini and Flex Kit is £489 at warehouseexpress with a UK warranty.
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I think you can get these for £450


But how are you going to use them? The RPs need a flash on your body (popup will do). That's fine for a lot of situations, but I want to be able to use the system without a flash on my body.
 
Of course, the radiopoppers can switch between Nikon and Canon anyway. They come set to Canon by default, and need setting to Nikon in the menu system if you're shooting Nikon.
And having a flash on camera can be of use on occasion. Not needed it myself, as I use the SU800 if I'm going down the route of TTL.
Most times, my preference is manual setup, so I use the Yongnuo RF602 sets, although most times I'm using the Lencarta Safari rather than speedlights, so the RPs are out of the running anyway.
 
i know someone who used pws with his nikon, then had a shot of rps, and sold the pw's to fund the rps and hasnt looked back, he always seemed to have issues with the pocket wizards, he seems at piece now with the radio poppers lol
 
@Triggaaar - I have an ST-E2 already so that was a really easy solution for a canon snapper with the RP's. Although I did see that as a minor weak point as those batteries can be hard to come by if they fail mid shoot!

I must admit to not being much or a fan or the velcro & stickers approach that RP's take with adapting there units to the front of the speedlights, a bit Heath Robinson. But I do like their simplistic approach and set up.

Anyway, I've already paid my money and made my choice :) I'm hoping that it'll be plain sailing with the PW's now that a lot of time has passed since their initial problems (mainly in the US) - all recent reviews and opinions in the UK have been mainly very positive - and as a Canon shooter, Hypersync is a big plus.

Not to mention the AC3 zone controller available on the PW's system - just too easy!
 
lifethroughalens said:
@Triggaaar - I have an ST-E2 already so that was a really easy solution for a canon snapper with the RP's.
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It's still all a bit cumbersome for when in a studio. RP do the JrXs too, but that would mean having two completely separate set-ups, which is a bit pointless.

I must admit to not being much or a fan or the velcro & stickers approach that RP's take with adapting there units to the front of the speedlights, a bit Heath Robinson.
Click to expand...
I though that was sorted with their mounts these days, no need for velcro etc.

as a Canon shooter, Hypersync is a big plus.
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I haven't learnt the differences with the sync options, but you can Hypersync with Nikon and Canon equally can't you?
 
Velco Heath Robinson affair was assigned to the bin some time ago. Well, at least for the receivers anyway. The transmitter still needs a lick 'n' stick to the SU800/Speedlight/Whatever!

High speed sync is ok on both brands for the RPs
 
A funky new feature of the PW beta firmware for action shooters is to trigger flashes in sequence over the 3 zones of the AC3, bring on those 8fps flash lit shots :)
 
I got the PW a few weeks ago and they have been great. No mis fires and a great range. The high speed capability has been amazing in the sun.
 
asphotographymk said:
The high speed capability has been amazing in the sun.
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I can't remember how these work - are you getting full power from your flash in shutter speeds faster than 1/250, which you couldn't do even if the flash was sat on top of the camera? HSS normally works by a pulse of flashes doesn't it? Good for giving a fast shutter speed, but not for over-powering the sun, because the flash isn't givning all it's light while the shutter is open.
 
Triggaaar said:
I can't remember how these work - are you getting full power from your flash in shutter speeds faster than 1/250, which you couldn't do even if the flash was sat on top of the camera? HSS normally works by a pulse of flashes doesn't it? Good for giving a fast shutter speed, but not for over-powering the sun, because the flash isn't givning all it's light while the shutter is open.
Click to expand...

There's a bit of tolerance in the x-sync window, even at the nominal max x-sync speed. If you tweak it right to the limit, there's just enough time to squeeze the flash in at higher speeds. In round numbers, you can get cameras with 1/250sec to run clean flash at 1/400sec - Nikon D3, D700, Canon 7D. Canon 1D will go up to 1/500sec.

PWs also enhance the HSS mode, by cutting the duration and reducing the wastage. On Canons, the waste power is saved and concentrated into a brighter output (up to a couple of stops more than stock at higher shutter speeds) but with Nikons the power saved is only diverted into shorter recycle times.
 
Personally I use a TT1/TT5 combination and I think the PW system is fantastic, with the main problem being the range - i know the RF from the canon flash units is only supposed to affect the US frequencies, but something hits my UK unit too. Max realistic range I find to be about 20m if you want 100% reliability, which is much less than quoted. I suspect it could be much improved by:
1) getting the units away from the camera and flash with extension cords
2) using a TT5 at both ends as the antenna is much bigger. If I were buying again I would get all TT5s, and no TT1

On the plus side, the TTL is so useful at events, where you don't have time to mess about, and the ability to shoot with multiple lights off camera and just use the camera controls as if you had one on camera flash is a huge time saver.

To me the only reason for going PW is for the ETTL. If you aren't going to use that then there are better systems, but if you want that then nothing else will do.
 
RicherSea said:
Max realistic range I find to be about 20m if you want 100% reliability, which is much less than quoted. I suspect it could be much improved by:
1) getting the units away from the camera and flash with extension cords
2) using a TT5 at both ends as the antenna is much bigger. If I were buying again I would get all TT5s, and no TT1
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I've tested mine (Canon version) to much longer distances than that with ~100% reliability - but I never have cause to use that sort of distance much at weddings!

In terms of TT5 or TT1 on camera, they put out the same power of signal. The antenna on the TT5 will allow greater distances, but only if aligned correctly with the receiving antenna (which would be an issue if you changed from portrait to landscape - and is potentially an issue if you have a receiving TT5 *very* close to the transmitting TT5). The TT1 antenna is shaped so that its position has less impact.

In real world terms, I suspect you wouldn't notice much difference between the two, as environmental factors would likely have more of an effect.

For me the main selling point of the TT1 is how compact it is on top of the camera - much nicer to use!
 
What guns are you guys using? They are all afected differently. According to this report (and AFAIK it's the only authoritive source, but only on the US frequencies) http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10050-10598 the 580EX, 580EXII and the 430EX are pretty bad, but the 430EXII and older 550EX don't seem to suffer much at all.

In addition to the (rather unsatisfactory IMHO) PW add-on mods, you can get 580 guns internally modded for about £50 by Michael Bass Designs amongst others, see here http://michaelbass.blogspot.com/2006/11/canon-flash-auxillary-sync-mod.html#580EXII_RF_Mod

I have found both PW and Michale Bass very prompt and helpful with email enquiries.
 
I'm not finding much difference at all in practice between the 580ex II, the 430ex II and the 550ex.

Certainly haven't yet felt the need to get my 580ex II modified - performance has been fine.
 
markrichardson said:
I'm not finding much difference at all in practice between the 580ex II, the 430ex II and the 550ex.

Certainly haven't yet felt the need to get my 580ex II modified - performance has been fine.
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Interesting info, thanks.
 
I have the flex5 and mini Pw's and the range with my now sold canon 430ex was appalling 30ft maximum I could get - which was hopeless
and I have Nissin 866 which the range is about 250ft but the Nissin great flash that it is has a a few quirks with the wizards which are at times iritating but it does work

I recently bought a canon 430ex 2 which works unbelievably well with the wizards and range is about 350-400ft which is far enough for my needs and it just works every time all the time with no hassles

adding to this I just bought the AC3 zone controller which is the best bit of kit ever invented which stops you having to go back to each flashgun to alter the settings and if there inside softboxes etc it really is a brilliant tool

must add My Nissin works with the zone controller but not as well and I had teething problems getting the zone controller to work the Nissin
had to get a beta firmware from pocket wizard which then for the first time allowed the Nissin to be operated using the AC3

but I cant tell you how much I love the little controller it is superb... its a lot of money for what it is and not of the best build quality but boy does it save a lot of messing about on the back of the flash

really cannot comment on the radio poppers as I have never used them but the people who own them seem to like them a lot

cheers
Chris
 
More good factual info Chris, cheers :thumbs:
 
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