Photography Permits - Different Questions

thewtam

thewtam

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Matthew
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Before anyone sighs at this ongoing chestnut I want to clarify I am looking at this from a slightly different angle.

The question/s I have are several around the same query.

Which Countries, if indeed any, have state laws requiring that an individual, professional or amateur or just a memeber of the population, apply for and hold a permit for photography?

Do any Countries have a state law requiring a permit to own a camera?

Historically, have any Countires required state permits for camera ownershipt and/or photography?

I think Germany in the 1930s under the Nazi party had laws where photography was tightly controlled. I suspect the USSR had laws and no doubt North Korea do now.

Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council have said that they are looking at a policy to introduce a requirement whereby anyone wanting to take photographs at Council run events, even I think in a piublic place, will require a Permit issued by their Corporate Communications Department.

This potentially will apply to professionals, amateurs and the public at large using anything from an SLR to a phone camera.

They maintain they do not want to alienate photographers but work with photographers in a responsible fashion, sharing resultant photos for publication with credit being given to the photographer. This smacks of the Council wanting to get photographic material for publicity free of charge.

There are clearly several issues surrounding this potential policy introduction but for the sake of this post I am interested in current state laws abroad as well as historical permit requirements.

(Actually, whilst writing this a question has come to mind regarding the current legal situation in the UK. Photographers go on about 'rights' when we know that it is the absence of restriction which makes photography permissable. There is no Photography Legislation as such. So, does a Council have the legal authority to require, even issue, a permit for photography in a public space? What legal mechanism is there which enables a Council to introduce a permit system? Surely that would extend to a Council being able to require permits for any activity which is not specifically covered by legislation?

NOTE, this isn't a rant. I want to identify where state laws require permits or where they have legislation covering photography, now and historically. I also now want to know if Councils can introduce a law restricting photography in puiblic if there is no legislation from Parliment on the issue in the first place.

Matt
 
I don't know about other countries etc but certainly in the case of a council trying to enforce that you need a permit to take pictures in a public area? It's simply unenforceable in law.
 
Made me smile - Nazi Germany, USSR, North Korea - then Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, do they have delusions of grandeur??

D
 
I don't think the Soviet Union had a permit system in place.... cameras were freely available to the proletariat (if they could afford them). You only have to look at the numbers of Soviet made 35mm's available today to see that this was true.

However, probably owning one personally in the early part of the 20th century would be produced as evidence at your show trial ;-)
 
Willid1 said:
Made me smile - Nazi Germany, USSR, North Korea - then Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, do they have delusions of grandeur??

D
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Just tell the US they have WMD, :D

Thinking about it just another crackpot idea,from another crackpot council
 
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There are many countries which have "different" rules on what can and cannot be photographed but none that I know of which require anyone to have a permit just to own a camera or take (general) pictures in public. That is my experience after visiting about 70 countries over the years.

As for Merthyr Tydfil, They will have problems introducing let alone enforcing any permit system for just taking photographs in public.
They are certainly able to introduce permits for people taking photographs on council property but again they would have difficulty enforcing that in places like parks and other council owned open spaces.

Many places have permit systems in place for "commercial" photography but know that to try and introduce that for the general public would sound the death knell for a lot of these places.

It is all p!iss and wind on the part of the council.

p.s. do you have any links to this "potential" policy?
 
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merthyr tidville sounds to me like a bad combination of upthemselves councillor who knows nothing about the law chatting *****, meets Amateur Photography's magazine constantly crying a bit too much about this kinda stuff.
 
On the issue about a policy requiring permits, I can't understand how a permit can relate to an activity which is usually unrestricted in a public place. The report refers to 'council run events' which presumably could be in the High Street, a public area. So, you're taking photos. In the eyes of the law not illegal. No infringement on other legislation such as harresment, public nuisence etc but the council say they haven't issued a permit. How would they stop you? If they called the police, then what, if you are not breaking any law?
It seems non-sensical.

The info I have is merely from the press, Amateur Photographer.

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/photo-news/539341/council-we-have-right-to-question-all-photographers

Your answer though is instructive. If the Council is serious, and let's face it, it could all be a storm in a teacup, it would be interesting that we do actually become the first Country issuing permits for photography.

Matt
 
That funny thing called human rights might come into play. Can't boot an alleged 'illegal immigrant preaching death and hate' but can restrict citizens from freely going about their business in public places.
 
I strongly suspect that it is the attempted beginning of paid for licences for photography at council events. All councils are so strapped for cash now , that they are trying all manner of crackpot ideas to raise more. If and when sufficient numbers of gullible photographers apply for "permission" to take photographs, the council would then say something along the lines of, "we now have too many applications to process free of charge so in future, permits will be charged at £X per event."

The best and only response is to ignore the pompous oafs and get snapping.
 
Surely a public place is not council-owned, it may be council-managed, but is publicly owned.

More a question than an assertion. I think Merthyr Tydfil's council may be confused about its own status and suffering delusions of grandeur.
 
Council: We have ‘right to question all photographers’

Well, as far as I'm concerned the only body with the 'right' (and the authority) to interrogate me is the police and even then I'm only obliged to give my name, address, and date of birth. All other questioning would have to wait until legal representation was available.

So if that had been me then 'santa's little helper' would have had to ...

a) go and find a copper

b) show me the relevant bye-law in writing

Otherwise they could go take a running jump.
 
Stuart M said:
Council: We have ‘right to question all photographers’

Well, as far as I'm concerned the only body with the 'right' (and the authority) to interrogate me is the police and even then I'm only obliged to give my name, address, and date of birth. All other questioning would have to wait until legal representation was available.
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In fact, I think you're precisely correct here. The council is making a claim it can't substantiate in law. While it might be argued that they have a duty of care, this is very different from a right to stop and question. The council is (or its appointed representatives) mistaken in its belief that it has any rights at all in this regard.
 
Stuart M said:
Council: We have ‘right to question all photographers’

Well, as far as I'm concerned the only body with the 'right' (and the authority) to interrogate me is the police and even then I'm only obliged to give my name, address, and date of birth. All other questioning would have to wait until legal representation was available.

So if that had been me then 'santa's little helper' would have had to ...

a) go and find a copper

b) show me the relevant bye-law in writing

Otherwise they could go take a running jump.
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You don't have to tell the fuzz anything
 
hollis_f said:
Unless you're driving a vehicle, then they can require you to provide name and address.
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You don't have to tell the police anything at any time. It might make then suspicious though lol
 
hollis_f said:
Like I said, if you're driving a vehicle the law obliges you to provide your name and address if asked. See the Road Traffic Act 1988 section 165.
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In order to prove ownership if you want but you still have the choice not to. Obviously you would buy you are under no obligation too - you cannot be forced to, you'd just get arrested lol
 
thewtam

The answer is, until, or unless they pass a bye law to require a permit, no one can say.
It would depend on the wording, where it applies too, how it applies and who has responsibility for enforcement.

That's all assuming that it applies to public areas, ie not those owned by the council, which like it or not fall into the same category as any other private owned land/property and means they can just do what they like.

POAH

You are under an obligation to, and failing to do so is a criminal offence. You are also required to produce your drivers license , insurance certificate and MOT(if required) to a constable. There has to be no ther reason for that requirement being made than your car being on a road or other public place, or you being the driver of a car in such a location.
 
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thewtam said:
Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council have said that they are looking at a policy to introduce a requirement whereby anyone wanting to take photographs at Council run events, even I think in a piublic place, will require a Permit issued by their Corporate Communications Department.

This potentially will apply to professionals, amateurs and the public at large using anything from an SLR to a phone camera.
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Hi Matt, i have spoken with Merthyr Borough Council and have read through the other thread about this, but have missed the part where MBC are looking at permits. Where did you see this?
 
Thanks Bernie, no doubt the lawyers will have fun with any wording. Although it wasn't the start of my thread, I am curious about the legal processes where Councils can introduce bye-laws for activities which are legal on a national level. I totally understand the situation in that photography in a public place isn't illegal or legal, just an activity which effectively has no definition or legislation as such. To make a preposterous analogy it's like a Council passing a bye-law stating that red trousers cannot be worn at council run events, or in public. I have wondered before how Councils uphold the idea that drinking alcohol in public is a banned activity. It is the case that in some areas you can't open a bottle of wine. Is that becausee in some ways alcohol is already a controlled substance? Legislation already concerns alcohol therefore its easy to pass extra and local laws relating to its consumption perhaps?

If there is no state legislation controlling photography as an activity in a public place what mechanism does a Council use to enforce a bye-law?

Regards ownership, if the Council can state any rules they like it means that there are no public spaces. None. All land is owned or controlled by somebody. In other words we are all arguing about a facade. If County Councils and Highways ban photography on the roads, can anyone actually fight that?

Is all of this really a reverse of the emperors new clothes?

Truth be told, the freedoms we think we have can all be shut down and the drop of a hat.

Phil,

I was responding to the article in Amateur Photographer, the link is above.

The quote is: 'The council said it does not currently hold an official photography policy but that this is ‘being reviewed with a view to putting a policy in place in the near future'.

I don't have detailed knowledge of what is happening at this Council ! Just what I read but remember this was a catalyst for my original question.

Matt
 
thewtam said:
Regards ownership, if the Council can state any rules they like it means that there are no public spaces. None. All land is owned or controlled by somebody. In other words we are all arguing about a facade. If County Councils and Highways ban photography on the roads, can anyone actually fight that?
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Pretty much, Yup. Even Common Land is technically owned by someone.

Much of this existed before, but it's been exacerbated by the Land Registration Act 2002 and to some extent the HRA, not to mention Public Private Partnerships where commercial companies have a vested interest in public property.

The upshot is that, unless you are standing on the Queen's Highway or on a designated Right of Way (both of which have technical owners anyway), you are probably on private land with public access. Which means that whilst you may have a presumed licence of access, that licence can be revoked at any time and the law of trespass brought into effect.
 
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