Photography & CRB Checks

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wootton-snapper

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Hey everyone!
I know I very rarely post on here but over the last week or so have had some interesting questions I wouldn't mind getting answers too, may be a bit of a debate though, but isn't that what a forum is for?

Basicly I know of a Local Photographer near where I live (shall remain unnamed) who in the last 3 days has been in court and been convicted of various acts, this has resulted in many things but more importantly he has been placed on the VISOR.

Now surely this makes it hard for a photographer to get work? Especially in portrait work, weddings and anything to do with schools? I have raised this with a few people who have said they don't agree and that people should still be allowed to work with everyone (think the word vulnerable people was used)

I personally do not agree and think they should pay the consequences for their actions, they must have known before hand the implications career wise their actions could have.

Just wanted to know peoples opinions on the matter and if people on the VISOR should be able to not show up on CRB checks. Also would you think it is a bit of a sore subject if they had a photo of a child on their website as their home page background? :thumbsdown:
 
generally weddings and portrait work wouldn't be affected by not being able to pass a CRB. School work would though - most education authorities and schools have a policy you must pass a CRB before they'll let you work
 
Fair enough, but he is advertising child & family photography as part of his services which I can't say I personally agree with!!
 
Violent & Sex Offenders Register.
From what I have heard he was placed on it because of links to Child abuse etc
 
I agree with you 100%. Anyone who goes on the ViSOR register should NOT be allowed to work with ANY vunerable people, YOUNG OR NOT!
As boyfalldown says, generally wedding and potrait photography won't need CRB check, but they would still be able to have access to young people in both areas.
Personally, I wouldnt be happy employing him/her, supervised or not.
 
there is a line folks
and we have to keep it!!
 
I think this offense(s) were more to do with Chatroom related incidents as well as storing of images, also have been people commenting on him being around schools...

Am glad people on here are agreeing with me! A few locals have said differently which is worrying!!
 
I would be careful to avoid heresay, particularly wrt child abuse offences, rumours spread fast and wildly about incidents like this.
If he is on VISOR, then he will have restrictions on what he can and can't do, and if being a photographer is his job, then they will presumably have looked into this?
 
A good friend of mine was personally told by Police about the hearing so know it is not just chinese whispers!
I understand he can no longer use Social Networking Sites or Forums, he has had restraining orders put on him for some locations and also restraining orders from the people who testified against him.
 
Do you want an honest answer?

I think the most dangerous people aren't those on VISOR list or sex offenders register - but those who do that kinda stuff and haven't been caught. Let's face it - a good crim never gets caught, s surely they're more dangerous - especially as they'll pass a CRB.
 
wootton-snapper said:
A good friend of mine was personally told by Police about the hearing so know it is not just chinese whispers!
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not doubting anything you've said - but you've just described exactly chinese whispers :thinking:

I understand he can no longer use Social Networking Sites or Forums, he has had restraining orders put on him for some locations and also restraining orders from the people who testified against him.
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would be a little careful about posting details etc..........on an open interent forum, esp. as you don't sound 100%
 
Well, this just about sums of the uselessness of CRB checks. Photographers don't actually need them unless they are working with vulnerable people UNSUPERVISED but just about everyone and his dog seems to think that they do, and insist on it...

I don't photograph children etc and have no wish to do so, so haven't bothered with a CRB. What I do have is a Section 1 Firearms Certicate (and a S2 as well) but I bet that none of the jobsworths would accept that as evidence of my good character, even though it would be cancelled IMMEDIATELY if I was convicted of any offence and even though a CRB check is out of date as soon as it's been issued
 
Anybody who is self employed can not by definition have a CRB check done on themselves. What people seem to forget is all the CRB check does, is tell employers (by definition self employed people are there own employers) that someone may have a criminal record. It is then up to employees what they do with that information. This is the reason CRB checks are not transferable.

There is actually nothing stopping an employer from employing someone on the sex offenders register or any other conviction.

Unfortunately what seems to happen is the opposite. Anything that appears on a CRB check is deemed reason to get rid of people, stop them accessing children etc. even if the conviction has nothing to do with being a p**** etc.

The big concern is that too many people have become fixated about CRB checks. If he hasn't had one he must be a p****. He is OK, he has been CRB checked. We have stopped asking questions about people.

If you think I am wrong just look at recent events at the pre school nursery down south. She had a CRB check.
 
munch said:
Anybody who is self employed can not by definition have a CRB check done on themselves. What people seem to forget is all the CRB check does, is tell employers (by definition self employed people are there own employers) that someone may have a criminal record. It is then up to employees what they do with that information. This is the reason CRB checks are not transferable. .
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Well put.. a CRB isnt a certificate to say you have passed... .. everyone can have a crb ... its finding out whats on the crb that matters..

is it somehting in the air at christmas.. this isnt the first thread this week with vigilante like undertones?
 
Personally, I consider what you are hearing as rumour and hearsay. It is Chinese whispers, you have not heard the details, you have heard the essence from a friend.
You are welcome to your own opinion.

You have stated that you know that there are restrictions on where he can go, and what he can do.

To work in a school, I suspect that he would be required by the school to have a CRB check (I know that our engineers are checked, when they go to fix computers in schools), I would hope that the CRB check, would list the convictions, and which section of the register he is required to sign.
I /suspect/ that as the check would come back positive, that the person asking for the photographer to come in, would perform due diligence and weigh up what risk there is, and whether there is reason not to employ him.
I think that there is probably a good analogy to security clearance. For my work, I often have to go to secure sites. There are varying degrees to security clearance. If I am going to some of the secure sites, given the clearance I already have, if I am going for a day, then I can just be escorted. If I am going for 4 days or more, then I have to have the security equivalent of a CRB performed, and still be escorted. All criminal records are reported, including any speeding tickets, and the person who asks for the check gets the results and decides upon the risk. If I go for 10 days plus, then a new higher security check is required, and so on. At each point the sponsor can confirm or deny access. I have had many chats with the chaps in black over-coats.
If he is always escorted and only taking portraits, then the 'sponsor' at the school might think that whatever he performed (maybe he was only chatting to young girls online?), is not of risk.
I suspect, given some of the laws of the land, that we can not require him not to advertise his job role.
 
If this individual has been to court and been convicted the court would make an appropriate order in addition to the sentence. For example not allowed to work with children....

Dunc
 
ISA & CRB

School togs do not really have to have CRB. As they should not not be left alone with Small humans. However a sensible tog will have the check as you never know when someone may ask for it. this could result in you not shooting a job and would cost you a lot.

Increased safeguards have now been introduced under the Vetting and Barring Scheme, from October 12th 2009:

It is now a criminal offence for individuals barred by the ISA to work or apply to work with children or vulnerable adults in a wide range of posts - including most NHS jobs, Prison Service, education and childcare. Employers also face criminal sanctions for knowingly employing a barred individual across a wider range of work;
The three former barred lists (POCA, POVA and List 99) are being replaced by two new ISA-barred lists;
Employers, local authorities, professional regulators and other bodies have a duty to refer to the ISA, information about individuals working with children or vulnerable adults where they consider them to have caused harm or pose a risk of harm. Referral forms and referral guidance are available.
VBS Guidance is also available covering the increased safeguards and the duties to refer introduced from the 12th October.

more info on this here: www.isa-gov.org.uk
 
Thanks Daryl,
So assuming that the judge knew about this scheme (and one would hope that they do), I would have expected that if the individual in question had preformed tasks which would make them an ongoing risk to individuals, that they would be entered onto this scheme.
Obviously, it is not for the general public to know whether a person is on this ISA list or not.
By my reading of the above, it would be illegal for the person in question to be touting for work at schools if they had been entered onto the ISA list. Child photography I would consider questionably, but family photography should probably be acceptable.
 
I have to have an 'enhanced CRB' as I'm in contact with an adult with learning disabilities, nothing to do with my work (I'm semi retired). Although this has to be carried out every couple of years it means very little in the practical sense, it's just another 'hoop' (and expense) provided by the government. You only have to look at the 'Vanessa George' case in Plymouth to see how little weight it carries.

Nigel.
 
But the ISA would not necessarily pick up a photographer or several other groups of people that go to schools or other places young people are. If the contact was irregular, in different schools covered by different education authorities. They could quite easily get missed out on an ISA check.

The one thing that really does worry me is that they can act on "information received" not only from the police but other sources. So all it it needs is one tog (or any other person that has business or possible business in a school) to start a rumour that X and why is a p**** and hey presto one less bit of competition because X or Y has been barred from working with children because ISA says they prove a risk. Just think of the knock on effect that could have on a business.
 
munch said:
The one thing that really does worry me is that they can act on "information received" not only from the police but other sources. So all it it needs is one tog (or any other person that has business or possible business in a school) to start a rumour that X and why is a p**** and hey presto one less bit of competition because X or Y has been barred from working with children because ISA says they prove a risk. Just think of the knock on effect that could have on a business.
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This is what concerns me about people starting rumours that X has failed a CRB check, or should fail a CRB check.

There is a large stigma put against the failing of an CRB, which means that even an adult might think twice about going to a photographer who may have failed a check.
 
wootton-snapper said:
From what I have heard he was placed on it because of links to Child abuse etc
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wootton-snapper said:
A good friend of mine was personally told by Police about the hearing so know it is not just chinese whispers!
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As has been said above, what you have posted here IS Chinese whispers. The courts decide what he can and cannot do, not the kangaroo court of public opinion who collect their evidence through 'a friend of a friend.'

Even if your friend's friend is a police officer, this doesn't give your story any more credibility. In fact, it lends it less credibility imho. And if it is true that a police officer put this information into the public domain, s/he has acted unprofessionally - and probably broken an ethical code of conduct about such matters.

I'll not comment on the supposed case itself, because it's nothing more than tittle-tattle.
 
Sorry that I may have given off the wrong kind of info ^^^
My friend actually gave evidence to the court (along with about 15-20 others) about the goings on, the Police Officer phoned him once the case was finished to give the details of the Sentance, I can assure you it wasn't just a case of 'chinese whispers'!
 
wootton-snapper said:
Sorry that I may have given off the wrong kind of info ^^^
My friend actually gave evidence to the court (along with about 15-20 others) about the goings on, the Police Officer phoned him once the case was finished to give the details of the Sentance, I can assure you it wasn't just a case of 'chinese whispers'!
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But it is still a case of chinese whispers though ' A friend of mine was told..............'

The court or its officers will of given him sentence and if they feel it warrented, any restrictions within his daily life. Whilst we can tell you what the limitations of a CRB in general are, we can't and shouldn't speculate what the court has deemed needed and TBH this thread smacks a little of tabloid paranoia
 
Well the officer in charge told him who then told me what he was told. Cant get much more direct than that? I was personally interested as I have met the person in question a few times and always thought he was a bit 'dodgy'. If i was being harsh about it I would have posted his name, business name etc but personally don't want to get involved. Just wondered what the general life is like for a Photographer who cant pass a CRB check?
 
wootton-snapper said:
Well the officer in charge told him who then told me what he was told. Cant get much more direct than that? I was personally interested as I have met the person in question a few times and always thought he was a bit 'dodgy'. If i was being harsh about it I would have posted his name, business name etc but personally don't want to get involved. Just wondered what the general life is like for a Photographer who cant pass a CRB check?
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and you told us.......
 
Hearsay, Chinese Whispers and third hand stories and going nowhere so I think safer to draw this to a conclusion....mind the doors!
 
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