Photography And Swimming

[heliomandra]

Nice to see lots of people on this Forum who aren't just photography buffs but listen to music, ride bikes, do normal things like ... any swimmers around here?

 

[SammyC]

I have a 50m badge, does that count?

 

[Steve]

Nothing serious, but come summer I am looking forward to swimming regularly in our local lake. It is man made for the purpose and acts as a swimming pool, family gathering place with BBQ's etc in summer, and a place to do curling, ice skating and ice hocky when it freezes in winter.

 

[heliomandra]

I have a 50m badge, does that count?

Sure does.

Now I'm off to Prime Time at my local pool. Free swimming on Tuesdays and Fridays for us over 50s, and we get a double lane to ourselves.

There's a sign up saying "No photography without permission", but I was just thinking after the Commonwealth Games ... what might make a good swimming photo?

 

[Steve]

I think you will find that photography in you local swimming pool will not be allowed. My advice would be to ask before you even attempt it, but be preparred for the answer

 

[CarlOgden]

BSAC Dive Leader, Powerboat Racing Rescue Diver do they count as swimming?

Did some underwater photography at Scapa Flow a few years ago but gave the camera back to its owner!!

Carl.

 

[heliomandra]

I think you will find that photography in you local swimming pool will not be allowed. My advice would be to ask before you even attempt it, but be preparred for the answer

Yes, I know that, but I also know that with the right approach it's possible to get permission in many places that are usually inaccessible to photographers. For example, some swimming coaches hire a lane for teaching sessions and want photos for instruction.

So let's think a bit more about the question! As I watched various races in the Commonwealth Games I was thinking about what still photographs of various starts, turns, stroke points would look like compared with how we see them in continuous movement. Hence the question: what would make a good swimming photo? ... and also why I asked first if there are any swimmers here.

 

[SammyC]

Well like any sport it seems that close up photos showing personal things such as expression etc.

 

[whitewash]

Nice to see lots of people on this Forum who aren't just photography buffs but listen to music, ride bikes, do normal things like ... any swimmers around here?

i successfully failed my 5m swimming badge as a kid because i could only swim backstroke and apparently that wasnt acceptable!

i havent been swimming for years, jeez i should go!

 

[Marcel]

I have a 24m badge, but they wouldn't give it me

I was with my school at the local pool, and the whole class was sat on the edge, cheering me on. I remember getting to the end of the pool, and just giving up right before reaching the end.
Swines wouldn't give it me anyway.....

Now I've plum forgotten how to swim....lol

 

[Glen]

I've still got a scrap book with all my badges, if I remember right didn't it start off with 10m or was it 5m, anyway got the full rack up to 1500m which if I think was 64 lengths of the pool?

 

[Fangman]

If I jumped into the pool now there would be a local hosepipe ban whilst the re-filled it!

 

[jewel]

I hang by the pool in a cute suit, does that count? heh

I would agree with sammy and think that capturing some kind of facial expression would make a great shot! :thumb:

Jewel

 

[heliomandra]

Fascinating! I also tried this one on a swimming forum. Guess which Forum posted the most swimming photos?

It's got me wondering just how much good photography is being done out there by people who wouldn't think of themselves as photographers, but bring the knowledge of their activity to their photographs.

Also, a comment was made by one swimmer-photographer that what makes a good swimmer isn't the same as what makes a good photo of a swimmer.

I wonder if that applies to other things too, like music photography, birding ....

 

[Steve]

Fascinating! I also tried this one on a swimming forum. Guess which Forum posted the most swimming photos?

That’s obvious, the swimming forum but please tell me you honestly didn’t expect anything different?

It's got me wondering just how much good photography is being done out there by people who wouldn't think of themselves as photographers, but bring the knowledge of their activity to their photographs.

About the same amount as for any other interest/hobby/past time etc. The difference is that for many other activities the participants are not in swimming costumes and thus the photographer runs less of a risk of being accused of unsavoury things. Such is the current state of affairs and the way the do gooders and government have made all the legitimate and hobbyist photographers to be almost a subculture and perverts. If you are taking part in those activities as a swimmer first then you will be known by the clubs and the people running them, that makes you more legitimate and opens doors that may otherwise not open. If you are not at a official event as a recognised press photographer you are more than likely stuffed.

Also, a comment was made by one swimmer-photographer that what makes a good swimmer isn't the same as what makes a good photo of a swimmer.

Isn’t that obvious though? We have rules of thirds, composition, focus, lighting and exposure to consider along with the skill and knowledge in using our equipment to bring those elements together. I am not a competitive swimmer but would assume that they have finishing first very high on their agenda along with all the other stuff they have been coached in, not how good they must look for photos Although the subject is the same the approaches are completely different.

I wonder if that applies to other things too, like music photography, birding ....

Depends on the subjects I would say…

 

[heliomandra]

Actually, I did expect to find a bit more common ground, or do I mean shared waves?

This business of photographers and swimming costumes is worrying, because among swimmers it never occurs to us to think about it, either in the pool or the changing village.

Something, unnerving, too, in what you say about "we" and "they". If I'm feeling more at home with this topic on the swim forum, does this mean I'm not a photographer?

If so, time to :getmecoat - sorry, meant my swimsuit. onders:

 

[Steve]

Actually, I did expect to find a bit more common ground, or do I mean shared waves?

This business of photographers and swimming costumes is worrying, because among swimmers it never occurs to us to think about it, either in the pool or the changing village.

Amongst photographers it is not an issue either, it is the way that the general public now see us due to the relentless campaigns by the governments and civil liberty groups. Our hobby and pleasure is not to be perverts or photograph swimmers getting changed but to make stunning pictures that make people take notice. Unfortunately it is becoming ever more difficult to do that.

Something, unnerving, too, in what you say about "we" and "they". If I'm feeling more at home with this topic on the swim forum, does this mean I'm not a photographer?

I think it means that as a swimmer you have not become as exposed (pardon the pun) to the restraints and prejudice that photographers are. Pick up your camera and travel to a different town and a different pool where you are not known, go on a club night and politely ask about taking some photographs. Tell them you are an amateur photographer, member of some online photography forums and are interested in taking the pictures for personal use only. You might get a lucky break and be allowed access but 9 times out of 10 you will be shown the door and receive some really dirty looks.

If so, time to :getmecoat - sorry, meant my swimsuit. onders:

I don’t know, maybe seeing this side of the coin could improve things? What does the swimming forum that you are also discussing this on have to say, maybe put this side of the story to them and get their feedback?

 

[heliomandra]

Among swimmers, the reckoning is that if you're a genuine photographer, follow ASA rules, and approach clubs, coaches, parents with an offer of prints for them, there should never be a problem.

Maybe your problem, Steve, is that 'amateur photographer member of some online photography forums interested in taking photos for personal use' doesn't sound too genuine.

By the way, apart from family snapshots, all my work is semi-pro, commissioned by voluntary organisations. So it'll be the same with swimming ... by (prompted) invitation.

 

[heliomandra]

i successfully failed my 5m swimming badge as a kid because i could only swim backstroke and apparently that wasnt acceptable!

i havent been swimming for years, jeez i should go!

I did my first whole length on my back! But my teacher told me later she was disqualified after she won a school freestyle race with breaststroke.

So I think the reason you 'failed' is one of those odd rules: at that level, you're expected to swim 5m on your front. Next one up is 10m on your front and 5m on your back.

Anyway, I've only learnt to swim properly in the last year, after a 40 year gap from floundering across a width of the pool when I was 12 or 13. So get back in the water and have fun on your back.

 

[heliomandra]

I have a 24m badge, but they wouldn't give it me

I was with my school at the local pool, and the whole class was sat on the edge, cheering me on. I remember getting to the end of the pool, and just giving up right before reaching the end.
Swines wouldn't give it me anyway.....

Now I've plum forgotten how to swim....lol

Do I know the feeling! Lost count of how many swimmers I meet who've been there ... and how many are still finding 20 lengths a massive effort because of it. But things have changed, and there are teachers around now who transform nervous adults into swimming addicts. I'm just wondering how to use photographs to help the process along.

 

[Steve]

Among swimmers, the reckoning is that if you're a genuine photographer, follow ASA rules, and approach clubs, coaches, parents with an offer of prints for them, there should never be a problem.

Show me one successful professional photographer that is willing to give away their work for nothing to a local swimming club.

Maybe your problem, Steve, is that 'amateur photographer member of some online photography forums interested in taking photos for personal use' doesn't sound too genuine.

Maybe it doesn’t…to you, however it doesn’t mention anything seedy or perverted, nor does it imply anything untoward. It is merely a statement of truth.

It seems that you have also fallen in to believing that an amateur photographer is just another “pervert” because he can’t back up his genuine statement with real credentials.
How does an amateur photographer in that situation get a break in the first place?

By the way, apart from family snapshots, all my work is semi-pro, commissioned by voluntary organisations. So it'll be the same with swimming ... by (prompted) invitation.

That’s good for you and gives you an opening that most won’t get handed to them on a platter. I love the way the throw in the “By the way” statement as if it had slipped your mind previously or it is meant to throw me off line. Are you contributing to this thread as a swimmer or a semi-pro photographer because I have seen no evidence to confirm the latter?

 

[heliomandra]

Steve, your posts on this thread really intrigue me! First, I notice your title - Administrator - so I'm thinking, what you're saying represents the ethos of the Forum. Second, I'm reading one big hang-up over amateur and pro, photographers and the rest of the world, etc.

I know plenty of pros who do charity work, but they just get on with it quietly, professionally.

When someone in a swimming club asks if I'm a genuine photographer, (s)he's not asking about my photographic credentials, but whether I'm a wyziwyg sort of guy. Half a dozen warm-up lengths, a few flips and rotations, treading water while I chat with the lifeguard ... :thumb:

You want to know how an amateur photographer gets a break in that situation? Either be professional about it, or forget it.:thumbdown

You ask if I'm contributing to this thread as a swimmer or a semi-pro photographer - because you say you haven't seen any evidence to confirm I'm a semi-pro. You may be an Administrator with 5000+ posts to your name, but you've not posted anything on this thread which shows you have a right to ask. So thanks for the question, but you aren't going to get an answer until I get to feel you're a genuine photographer. Meanwhile, the swimmers are giving loads of help and goodwill.

No need to get in a :hissyfit: like some of the guys in the RPS. You wouldn't want me to think all amateur photographers are a bit ...?:confused-

 

[Steve]

Steve, your posts on this thread really intrigue me! First, I notice your title - Administrator - so I'm thinking, what you're saying represents the ethos of the Forum. Second, I'm reading one big hang-up over amateur and pro, photographers and the rest of the world, etc.

First- an administrator is not allowed a personal opinion?
Second- maybe you would like to expand on your allegations?

I know plenty of pros who do charity work, but they just get on with it quietly, professionally.

Nobody mentioned charity work, we were discussing working for nothing which is completely different as I am sure you would agree?

When someone in a swimming club asks if I'm a genuine photographer, (s)he's not asking about my photographic credentials, but whether I'm a wyziwyg sort of guy. Half a dozen warm-up lengths, a few flips and rotations, treading water while I chat with the lifeguard ... :thumb:

Your point being?

You want to know how an amateur photographer gets a break in that situation? Either be professional about it, or forget it.:thumbdown

This made me laugh, as a semi pro I would have thought that you would have been able to provide a little more help and advice than that.

You ask if I'm contributing to this thread as a swimmer or a semi-pro photographer - because you say you haven't seen any evidence to confirm I'm a semi-pro. You may be an Administrator with 5000+ posts to your name, but you've not posted anything on this thread which shows you have a right to ask.

Ohh dear now I know this is a joke :laugh1:

So I have no rights to carry a conversation with a forum member? Sort of defeats the whole object of bulletin boards don’t you think? Oops there I go again with the questions. :doh:

So thanks for the question, but you aren't going to get an answer until I get to feel you're a genuine photographer.

With regards to if you feel I am I genuine photographer or not, personally I don’t really care, I don’t know you nor have I made any claims I need to prove.

Meanwhile, the swimmers are giving loads of help and goodwill.

If you search through some of those 5000+ posts that you have mentioned, you will get a good idea of what I am about and unlike you, I have no reason to be defensive or hide anything. You will also notice that this forum and site is about welcoming and helping others regardless of their supposed status. This is reflected in almost every thread that you can see. Every member here contributes in some way, the hobbyists, the amateurs and especially the many professionals that don’t feel the need to shout about it in every thread. I am sure that your comment above pleases the community here.

No need to get in a :hissyfit: like some of the guys in the RPS. You wouldn't want me to think all amateur photographers are a bit ...?:confused-

You got banned there and here you write as though you are better than us, I find both rather sad. :noshake:
Remember that everyone has to start somewhere and without the guidance and help of others, the climb to the top can be a real struggle. Perhaps you have forgotten that or maybe you are still somewhere on that path?

You can obviously think whatever you like though, neither I or anyone else on this site will try to change that. If you chose to stick around, I hope that you relax a little and offer help and advice to the community as any professional would. If you do, you will find that everyone will be welcoming and you will not find a better set of folks anywhere online. If not, then I wish you well in your travels.

As far as this thread and discussion is concerned though, for me it has run its course. :snap1:

 

[Marcel]

You say you're a swimmer and a semi-pro photographer, and you caste us as amateurs, yet you come to OUR forum and ask US what might make a good swimming photograph?

We have nothing to prove, and in some respects, neither do you.
If you want to throw your weight as a semi-pro (which, incidentally makes no difference to use either way, as we couldn't care less if you're Cartier-Bresson or Johnny Briggs), then back up your statement with proof.

Steve is entitled to his views, and the fact that he has Administrator under his name simply denotes he has access to forum buttons. As far as forum contributions go, his Administrator status means nothing, he is just the same as you or anyone else. His views do not represent the views of the forum. That's not to say the rest of us Admins do not agree with him, merely he is entitled to have his own opinion as a member, regardless of his position.

but you've not posted anything on this thread which shows you have a right to ask. So thanks for the question, but you aren't going to get an answer until I get to feel you're a genuine photographer. Meanwhile, the swimmers are giving loads of help and goodwill.

So why does he need to prove something to ask you a legitimate question? Your question can have a completely different bias, depending on which perspective you are asking from, so he has got the right to ask.

As photographers, there is no way we could just walk into a swimming pool and take photos. If we were to request such access beforehand, there is a slim chance we *may* be allowed, but only in a professional capacity.
Remember, if you're asking as a professional photographer, the chances are you are working for a commission, or at least have the backing of a publication, and a reason to want to take the photos.
"I am working on some photography for swimming monthly", as an infinitely better reason to ask than "I like taking photos of swimmers".

Those who go blundering around taking photos or asking for permission without proper thought and recourse to the possible implications or how it might look (and therefore not giving a proper explanation), are the ones that are doing this 'hobby' the damage. The short of photographer that alienates the public and ruins our chances of peaceful interaction in the future.

 

[heliomandra]

As I said earlier, I have received nothing but help and encouragement from my fellow swimmers, and indeed from other semi-professional photographers.

The last two posts by Steve and Marcel lead me to wonder, and with great regret, whether you are typical examples of

The sort of photographer that alienates the public and ruins our chances of peaceful interaction in the future.

I have to say that as a semi-professional who has been granted privileged access to live concert and theatre performance, my short participation on this Forum has strengthened my support for the notices that are springing up to ban photography in private venues and on privately owned land without a licence from the management. I need them!

No doubt a sensible Forum administrator will feel that the best thing to do is to delete the whole thread and close my account. So I'm happy to :getmecoat

 

[Matt]

i must not be a sensible forum administrator because i see no reason to close the thread or delete your account? I dont quite understand what you mean either

 

[Steve]

No doubt a sensible Forum administrator will feel that the best thing to do is to delete the whole thread and close my account. So I'm happy to :getmecoat

I think that is wishful thinking

This thread will stay in public view so that people can make up their own minds on your conduct and allegations

Perhaps you would care to address some of the points Simon, maybe in your next dinner hour at Oxford Uni

 

[Marcel]

No, we are not typical examples of such, and I fail to see why you think so?

I'd also like to know why you feel the need to push your view that you are semi professional? Why does that make a difference to your opinion?
The phrase 'semi-professional' is a very very loose one. I have sold photos in the past, therefore I can legitimately consider myself semi professional.
What if I was to say I am a professional photographer?...does my above opinion now hold more weight? of course it doesn't.

We are both merely trying to show you that your claims are incorrect. You seem to believe (due to you actually being a swimmer), that it is easy for a photographer (regardless of professional status) to be granted permission to take photos at swimming pools etc, purely if they were to ask nicely.

We are simply saying this may be true, but very very rare. There are way too many legal implications for a start. For example, the place would have to be closed to the members of the public (in the case of council run pools), then likely every swimmer would have to be asked (and in the case of minors, give written permission) for the club/pool to allow the photographer in.

While this isn't law, it most certainly would be practise. And we are merely trying to highlight that the majority of us amateurs have absolutely no clue what would make a good photograph, because of all the rules, regulations, and the collective nervous attitude of the general public towards anyone with a camera.

Unfortunately, Camera + scantily clad person = alterior motive. It's as simple as that.

You as a swimmer seem to be unable to grasp that concept, and I believe this may be borne from the fact that as a swimmer and a photographer, you are personally not concerned about anyone taking photos of you swimming.

 

[Boo]

We are both merely trying to show you that your claims are incorrect. You seem to believe (due to you actually being a swimmer), that it is easy for a photographer (regardless of professional status) to be granted permission to take photos at swimming pools etc, purely if they were to ask nicely.

We are simply saying this may be true, but very very rare. There are way too many legal implications for a start. For example, the place would have to be closed to the members of the public (in the case of council run pools), then likely every swimmer would have to be asked (and in the case of minors, give written permission) for the club/pool to allow the photographer in.

While this isn't law, it most certainly would be practise. And we are merely trying to highlight that the majority of us amateurs have absolutely no clue what would make a good photograph, because of all the rules, regulations, and the collective nervous attitude of the general public towards anyone with a camera.

Unfortunately, Camera + scantily clad person = alterior motive. It's as simple as that.

I totally agree. Sad to say but this is a reflection of today's society. Things that ARE innocent are now deemed dodgy because of the growing increase in nasty perverted people who spoil things for the rest of us. Photography is just one example in this sort of situation (swimming pool) I mean just look how we have to educate kids at more and more of an early age about things that they shouldn't have to know about til they're older. You're frowned at now if you so much as even smile at a child these days.

I have to say that as a semi-professional who has been granted privileged access to live concert and theatre performance, my short participation on this Forum has strengthened my support for the notices that are springing up to ban photography in private venues and on privately owned land without a licence from the management. I need them!

Come on be fair. Its a disgusting world out there and people do have to take precautions with EVERYONE unless they really know them, infact even then care is needed at times. Yes you're right and if you approach in a professional and honest manner then you can overcome these obstacles but it really is not as straight forward as assuming that it is easy or that the attitudes on this forum is verification that photography being banned here there and everywhere is justified.

I think you have misunderstood the tone in other's explanations to you and I really hope that you can see your way through that once things have calmed down a bit. Any healthy discussion is invigorating but knocking other's down doesn't help the old comradship does it eh. Come on.... you're a photographer as well as a swimmer....or have I misunderstood...... so surely you understand where we're coming from.... we value your contribution as a semi-pro so why not lets start again as thats what this forum is about .... sharing, advising and improving techniques with and for oneanother.

 

[heliomandra]

I'd also like to know why you feel the need to push your view that you are semi professional?

Because I am not a full-time professional, but apart from family snapshots I only take photographs for commissions.

And we are merely trying to highlight that the majority of us amateurs have absolutely no clue what would make a good photograph

... which is reason enough for

the collective nervous attitude of the general public towards anyone with a camera.

... and very good reason not to want to be an amateur photographer.

 

[Steve]

... and very good reason not to want to be an amateur photographer.

but that is exactly what you are :smilenod:

So many questions and so few answers from you...

 

[heliomandra]

Perhaps you would care to address some of the points Simon, maybe in your next dinner hour at Oxford Uni

I think the person you are after is aka the Spoiled Dilettante!

 

[Steve]

All these games...

It must really be depressing that you only managed so few posts here before you have been caught out. You would think that after all the experience you have had at trolling, you would have been better than that

I must thank you though, behind the scenes we have been having a ball, it has been quite a while since I have laughed this much :laugh1:

From your previous exploits elsewhere it is about now that I should keep an eye on my private messages for the standard threats :sleepy:

 

[Matt]

dont forget to share them Steve, i need a good chuckle in the evenings

 

[heliomandra]

No need to get in a :hissyfit: like some of the guys in the RPS. You wouldn't want me to think all amateur photographers are a bit ...?:confused-

Aren't you guys just too naive for words, falling right in there, just where I dropped the banana skin for you by the poolside.

C Moss

PS One of you, do check out my email address!

See see dee, dee diddle dum ... :laugh1:

 

[Steve]

You don't like being played at your own game do you :grinshake

Come on now, your not even making this a challenge any more One of us did check out your email address (and IP) long before you mentioned the above

It shouldn't be long now

 

[dazzajl]

I appriciate that anything posted here now is just OT waffle but I thought it really stood out from reading this thread how little we have to put up with awful tags like "semi pro" here.

It's one that has always made me cringe and tends to be used by people who care more for how others see them than the continual education that photography should be.

We seem to have a community here where everyone is a photographer and that's what matters to most.

 

[Marcel]

Guys he's now gone. We don't have time for obvious trolling on the forums, it's nor fair to the rest of the good, honest and caring members.

Even though he isn't here to stir up trouble, this thread still makes a valid point, and that's of us 'amateurs' (or even semi pros ) being made to feel like perverts for only wanting to pursue an innocent hobby.

 

[jewel]

this thread still makes a valid point, and that's of us 'amateurs' (or even semi pros ) being made to feel like perverts for only wanting to pursue an innocent hobby.

To be fair though there are some photographers out there that do take advantage of their position sometimes. I knew a photographer once who was taking shots of 'girls volleyball' for the local paper. Granted some went to the paper I presume but most were shots that a 'pervert' would take. It was quite obvious that he had the opportunity, and took it. It does happen out there so 'society' as a whole does have reason for concern where photographers are involved imo.

Jewel

 

[Steve]

It's always the few that spoil it for the majority though, don't you think?