photographers...

[hayley.price]

well theres not really a place for me to start this post as however i say it theres properly going to be a disagree and agree discussion, but i see so many photographers who are esteemed photographers making a living out of taking photos. yet there photos are all over exposed, the colours are all out, they have chopped heads and toes off and even still everyone loves them and there work, yet i try so hard to make my photos correct but getting the technicalities right that sometimes i wonder why do i bother? i always see other equine photographers take your typical portrait shots of horses and yet there over exposed or they take a headshot and the horses head is distorted but the comments on these pictures from fans and clients say they are amazing.

so i guess the point of my post is..

what is it that makes these shots i have learnt that are wrong so right in the clients eye?

why is it the ones that get the work seem to shoot the photos that have the most wrong with them?


I know i am not the best photographer in the world but i have come along way from when i first joined this forum, i have had my ups and down's but its finally starting to sink in that as much as i think i know everything, i don't and as much as i want to learn new things i'm only going to do those by listening and reading and trying.

so heres where i have got to start, i love looking at other photographers work and the comments they get it gives me inspiration and motivation but the more i'm currently doing it the more its confusing me.

 

[joxby]

There are do's and don'ts in "equine" photography ??

I'm not sure there is such a thing, its sport, portraiture or....I dunno, wildlife ?

Each of those have their own guidelines I suppose, probably all different so I reckon the important elements change depending on which you are shooting.

Don't suppose orrible blown out chopped off colour shifted blurry pictures feature in any of em though..

 

[markmullen]

It sounds like they are just better at the business side of things than you.

If you're taking the better photos then all you've got to do is nail the business side, which can be taught, and you'll shoot them out of the water.

I see a lot of commercial photography which is rubbish, but the photographer obviously did a sufficiently good selling job on the client that they were happy.

 

[Deleted member 67219]

Because, shockingly enough, there is no 'rule book' when it comes to producing pictures.

You say you work hard to get the technicalities 'right', but what is 'right'? Is it 'right' according to you? According to this forum? According to a book? 'Right' is always subjective!

 

[BRASH]

A lot will have to do with the average punter not having a damn clue what makes a good photograph.

 

[hayley.price]

Because, shockingly enough, there is no 'rule book' when it comes to producing pictures.

You say you work hard to get the technicalities 'right', but what is 'right'? Is it 'right' according to you? According to this forum? According to a book? 'Right' is always subjective!

i say right and i'm no where near perfect myself but right according to the photographers that take there time to teach me things, according to the people on here who take there time and put up with me enough to still reply to my posts and try and help me learn.

It sounds like they are just better at the business side of things than you.

If you're taking the better photos then all you've got to do is nail the business side, which can be taught, and you'll shoot them out of the water.

I see a lot of commercial photography which is rubbish, but the photographer obviously did a sufficiently good selling job on the client that they were happy.

hmm yes this is true

There are do's and don'ts in "equine" photography ??

I'm not sure there is such a thing, its sport, portraiture or....I dunno, wildlife ?

Each of those have their own guidelines I suppose, probably all different so I reckon the important elements change depending on which you are shooting.

Don't suppose orrible blown out chopped off colour shifted blurry pictures feature in any of em though..

i have always called it equine photography because when i do a shoot and try and aim to get the horses in there natural environment, portraits with the owner and ridden photos all in the one shoot (unless stated by the client they just want one or the other) so it covers different areas in one shoot well thats the way i see it anyway

 

[Nikon_Nick]

You also need to take into account, the emotional part of this. If you take a shot of someone's horse, its pretty much the same as a shot of their child, so the technicalities will be overlooked to make way for the 'ahhhhh' factor.

 

[Nod]

Indeed, people will buy what they like. What might be a perfectly exposed shot might not catch their eye - maybe the horse doesn't look like it does in their eyes, maybe they see their nag as a long nose. In much the same way that a portrait of a human can just not look like the sitter even though it clearly is. Personally, I couldn't sell a free source of heat to a freezing Yorkshireman but there are people who could flog a coal stove to a Masai.

 

[MWHCVT]

I've said it before in the past, the vast majority of the general public don't actually know an imperfect photo, the don't look a photos for the quality of the photo it's the emotional connection, the memory that the photos evoke in them....

 

[simonblue]

A lot will have to do with the average punter not having a damn clue what makes a good photograph.

Or what make a good pro or a good business person

 

[Alastair]

There are a lot of excellent photographers that are exceptionally poor at business. They will always be beaten by a good photographer that's good at business, and often by a mediocre photography that's excellent at business.

There is also the "client is always right" problem. Just look on the Business section and find the discussions on high key chavground portraiture. It's not about shooting the image you think is best, it's about shooting the image the client wants. And then there's the "technical perfection" problem - look just how many bland and uninspiring yet technically perfect photographs clog up this forum, Flickr and the web. Then go look at what people like and choose to have hung on their walls.. lens flare, over-exposure, blocked shadows/highlights, movement blur, imperfect focus.

The important thing to remember is that professional photography is not about taking photographs. It's about getting paid to take photographs.

Aligning the photos you're taking with the photos your clients want is part of the game. Have you ever looked at the other pictures on the walls of your clients homes? - even the non-horsey ones..

 

[hayley.price]

There are a lot of excellent photographers that are exceptionally poor at business. They will always be beaten by a good photographer that's good at business, and often by a mediocre photography that's excellent at business.

There is also the "client is always right" problem. Just look on the Business section and find the discussions on high key chavground portraiture. It's not about shooting the image you think is best, it's about shooting the image the client wants. And then there's the "technical perfection" problem - look just how many bland and uninspiring yet technically perfect photographs clog up this forum, Flickr and the web. Then go look at what people like and choose to have hung on their walls.. lens flare, over-exposure, blocked shadows/highlights, movement blur, imperfect focus.

The important thing to remember is that professional photography is not about taking photographs. It's about getting paid to take photographs.

Aligning the photos you're taking with the photos your clients want is part of the game. Have you ever looked at the other pictures on the walls of your clients homes? - even the non-horsey ones..

i will take a look in business section thank you, and yes i suppose i have but most of the time i look at them then think its not one i like and chose to ignore it :/

 

[meonshore]

You also need to take into account, the emotional part of this. If you take a shot of someone's horse, its pretty much the same as a shot of their child, so the technicalities will be overlooked to make way for the 'ahhhhh' factor.

Actually I'd disagree - owners of horses, especially those who compete are very very particular about the technicalities associated with the way the horse looks in the photograph - far more so than a parent looking at an image of their child - when quite often technicalities are over looked for a good smile. Ear position, and legs in particular when jumping or in dressage can make or kill an image in terms of saleability - I'm fairly certain that for equine portraiture they are as demanding - fortunately I have never been accused of making someones pride and joy "look like a donkey".

That said I'd agree with everything said above about business and sales skills more often than not trumping photographic skills in isolation.

All I would say Hayley is that if you think every other photographers images are over-exposed, and the colours wrong compared to yours then I would ask if you are working on a calibrated monitor ? If not had you considered that what you see isn't necessarily what they are presenting to their customers ? It is very easy for an un-calibrated monitor to make images look over-exposed/blown-out.

 

[hayley.price]

Actually I'd disagree - owners of horses, especially those who compete are very very particular about the technicalities associated with the way the horse looks in the photograph - far more so than a parent looking at an image of their child - when quite often technicalities are over looked for a good smile. Ear position, and legs in particular when jumping or in dressage can make or kill an image in terms of saleability - I'm fairly certain that for equine portraiture they are as demanding - fortunately I have never been accused of making someones pride and joy "look like a donkey".

That said I'd agree with everything said above about business and sales skills more often than not trumping photographic skills in isolation.

All I would say Hayley is that if you think every other photographers images are over-exposed, and the colours wrong compared to yours then I would ask if you are working on a calibrated monitor ? If not had you considered that what you see isn't necessarily what they are presenting to their customers ? It is very easy for an un-calibrated monitor to make images look over-exposed/blown-out.

sorry i never said every other i said so many of them, yes i am working on a calibrated monitor as had issues with this before and now check its calibration often.

but as you say as a horse owner myself i look for the position of the horse if its tracking up properly in the photos and if its showing its movement through those photos

 

[Nikon_Nick]

sorry i never said every other i said so many of them, yes i am working on a calibrated monitor as had issues with this before and now check its calibration often.

but as you say as a horse owner myself i look for the position of the horse if its tracking up properly in the photos and if its showing its movement through those photos

...I was speaking as the partner of a horse owner, and a Parent. I agree completely about the buisness skills problem, bur have first hand experience of my partners yard mates, that have purchased extremely dodgy photos of their horses ( technically and showing bad paces etc) because they look cute. Im not for one minute suggesting this happens all of the time, but it is a factor to consider, I feel.

 

[Yv]

sorry i never said every other i said so many of them, yes i am working on a calibrated monitor as had issues with this before and now check its calibration often.

but as you say as a horse owner myself i look for the position of the horse if its tracking up properly in the photos and if its showing its movement through those photos

Something else as well to extend on this thought....and I say this from experience reading here, yes, when it comes to equine photography, especially photographs of them competing, the position of the horse is absolutely key. It is also fair to say that the photographers eye on a great photo can be at odds with that - a fully stretched out front hoof for example will rarely look as good photographically as one where it is slightly curved under [shooting people, if it bends, bend it - one of those 'rules' you learn how to do, then learn when you can break it] but the owner will want the fully extended version, so if its a toss up between a technically brilliant photogenic image, or an imperfect photo where the horse is doing what the owner wants to see, guess which one they are going to go for!

Combine the eye for position of the horse with the eye [which you have the knowledge to do] & technical skill for a good photo, learn a bit of business acumen and suddenly you will find it all comes together.

If its any consolation, you see the same effect across the industry - I have seen some pretty dire wedding photos that have a plethora of 'gorgeous' type comments underneath... it can be disheartening, but only if you let it.

 

[hayley.price]

im okay when it comes to the photo of the horses position i can get the positions of the stretched out trot fully extended or the point of the jump that shows of the horses skill. its when those photos are the corrected exposure but not as good as a similar shot of witch the photo is over exposed very badly :/


i guess your right tho just keep learning and keep on going

 

[mart77]

im okay when it comes to the photo of the horses position i can get the positions of the stretched out trot fully extended or the point of the jump that shows of the horses skill. its when those photos are the corrected exposure but not as good as a similar shot of witch the photo is over exposed very badly :/


i guess your right tho just keep learning and keep on going

I had a look at your flickr account and your pictures are well exposed and clean. I would say your problem is more likely down to business and marketing. This is harder than just producing better pictures, Youd think that would be enough but being well established will carry a photographer a lot further. More people buy The Sun than other newspapers but The Sun is arguably the worst.
I dont know the equine industry at all BUT, and this is key....you need to stop looking at what their pictures look like and start looking at what their business looks like and how it operates. They are beating you at that, even if all they are doing is having been around for longer. I hope that helps.

 

[treeman]

i always see other equine photographers take your typical portrait shots of horses and yet there over exposed or they take a headshot and the horses head is distorted but the comments on these pictures from fans and clients say they are amazing.

I think from what you say here, that you're looking at comments on social media? if you are, then take everything you read with a massive pinch of salt. Do you know for certain these photographers are making a living from it? or is it just what they say?

My advice would be to just ignore them, and you carry on doing what you want to do

 

[Yves Geza]

Hayley, your photos have got much better! So now it's time to develop the commercial side of Aralia Photography!

You're going to love the Talk Business section! The arguments and opinions there show up the TP photographic critique as amateur stuff!

 

[hayley.price]

Hayley, your photos have got much better! So now it's time to develop the commercial side of Aralia Photography!

You're going to love the Talk Business section! The arguments and opinions there show up the TP photographic critique as amateur stuff!

Haha yes have been reading a few of the posts and some are entertaining to say the least haha

I think from what you say here, that you're looking at comments on social media? if you are, then take everything you read with a massive pinch of salt. Do you know for certain these photographers are making a living from it? or is it just what they say?

My advice would be to just ignore them, and you carry on doing what you want to do

Yes mostly and Flickr and I'm pretty sure they do make a living off it

 

[hayley.price]

Than

I had a look at your flickr account and your pictures are well exposed and clean. I would say your problem is more likely down to business and marketing. This is harder than just producing better pictures, Youd think that would be enough but being well established will carry a photographer a lot further. More people buy The Sun than other newspapers but The Sun is arguably the worst.
I dont know the equine industry at all BUT, and this is key....you need to stop looking at what their pictures look like and start looking at what their business looks like and how it operates. They are beating you at that, even if all they are doing is having been around for longer. I hope that helps.

thank you for the advice it helps a lot

 

[Bristolian]

A lot will have to do with the average punter not having a damn clue what makes a good photograph.

Spot on

I blame it on the Facebook culture where snaps that are so out of focus no-one can identify anyone in them but get "liked".

Just one of the reasons I keep well clear of Facebook :boxer:

 

[Suvv]

One piece of advice I got was:

First sell yourself and then you can sell anything!


(Mind you, I was also told that sincerity was the most important characteristic you can have. Once you can fake that you have got it made )

 

[MWHCVT]

Spot on

I blame it on the Facebook culture where snaps that are so out of focus no-one can identify anyone in them but get "liked".

Just one of the reasons I keep well clear of Facebook :boxer:

Yes that does my nut right in

 

[Phil Young]

well theres not really a place for me to start this post as however i say it theres properly going to be a disagree and agree discussion, but i see so many photographers who are esteemed photographers making a living out of taking photos. yet there photos are all over exposed, the colours are all out, they have chopped heads and toes off and even still everyone loves them and there work, yet i try so hard to make my photos correct but getting the technicalities right that sometimes i wonder why do i bother? i always see other equine photographers take your typical portrait shots of horses and yet there over exposed or they take a headshot and the horses head is distorted but the comments on these pictures from fans and clients say they are amazing.

so i guess the point of my post is..

what is it that makes these shots i have learnt that are wrong so right in the clients eye?

why is it the ones that get the work seem to shoot the photos that have the most wrong with them?


I know i am not the best photographer in the world but i have come along way from when i first joined this forum, i have had my ups and down's but its finally starting to sink in that as much as i think i know everything, i don't and as much as i want to learn new things i'm only going to do those by listening and reading and trying.

so heres where i have got to start, i love looking at other photographers work and the comments they get it gives me inspiration and motivation but the more i'm currently doing it the more its confusing me.

When I was younger and inexperienced to foods, I used to think a bacon sandwich was the best thing ever. To me it was amazing. As I grew up akd tasted new things I realise that whilst a bacon sandwich is nice, it isn't quite on the same lines as a rib eye steak meal.

It's a bit of a "the world is only as big as the world you know" type of thing - they are just inexperienced and ignorant to anything better. As long as they look good and the right emotion is there, it's good to them

 

[hayley.price]

yes many of times have i thought about disactivating my Facebook but every time i do in less the 24 hours i'm back on it its addicting haha.

 

[Teflon-Mike]

Who is going to look at your photo?
Why are they going to look at your photo?
What are they going to find interesting about it?

The perfectly composed, perfectly exposed, is often also perfectly 'boring'.

Getting 'in' to photography, following the 'rules' striving for 'better', technically, you often loose sight of what and who the photo is actually for; striving to take 'good' photo's you go looking for pictures, rather than letting them happen, and more concerned with technical aesthetics than actual interest, end up taking ever more 'better' photo's of stuff that is ever the less 'interesting', to ever less folk.

Folk that are flogging thier fotos are often doing so not because of any inherent technical merit, but they know what people want to see... and are prepared to pay good money to look at.

And the bottom line, is that the average person, knows little and cares less for the technical merit of a photograph, and whether the colours are 'correct' or if the perspective is skewed, or if the depth of focus is off, or anything like that.

1/ Is there anything in this picture they recognise?
2/ If they recognise it, does it interest them?
3/ Does the picture have meaning or relevence to them?
4/ Is it 'just like' every other photo of that sort of subject they get shown, or is it in any way 'different'?
5/ Is it 'pleasing' to look at?

They don't give two hoots, if the highlights are a bit blown, or that the shaddows might be a bit hard, they dont even pay much attension to anything BUT the main and most 'obviouse' subject!

In fact, there have been some notable example's of photo's being published with the reflection of naked women in windows in the back-ground, and the like, and these things have had to be pointed out to people! Its like that video clip of the net-ball game where you dont see the bloke in the gorilla suit run across the screen and start break dancing! MOST people REALLY aren't that observant.

And most of the subtle 'craft' of photography is wasted on a lot of people. IF they appreciate it, its more often by accident, or VERY considered design on the part of the snapper.

The Lesson? Consider the questions at the top. You cant please all of the people all of the time; so WHO are you trying to please? And WHAT is it that will please them?

It's knowing your audience.

 

[martinfuge]

I know how you feel Hayley. I do photography as a hobby and a Flickr group of where i live has people just taking photos of anything for example wheelie bin on a waste ground. They get loads of favourite and comments. I know everyone has different tastes but when people get all that and sometimes mine get nothing, it can get a bit disheartening. Especially when I try and think and compose my shot.