Out-of-gamut reds: Any way of printing?

[skysh4rk]

Hi all,

I'm looking for a bit of advice.

I've never had any significant problems with colour when printing (I usually use Sam's Photo Lab), but I've recently run into a problem with reds. While on honeymoon in Asia, I used a different type of film than usual, which renders very vivid reds (actually yellows as well, but I usually desaturate those a bit). I've recently received the prints and the reds in these have come back looking very flat.

Since then, I've tried soft-proofing printer profiles from a few different labs in Lightroom, but these reds always seem to be out of gamut. I have to seriously desaturate the reds in order to avoid clipping, which sort of defeats the purpose of shooting this film in the first place and leaves the reds looking very dull.

Is there anything else I can do to capture these colours in my prints? Different lab? Different paper? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Examples of the problematic colours include this guy's reddish outfit and the Chinese characters in his sign:



And my t-shirt in this instance:

 

[Chappers]

If a colour is out of gamut , then it is out of gamut. The printer simply cannot produce that saturation of colour. I can appreciate that desaturating , which is the obvious answer tends to give a duller colour. Now it's difficult to know without looking at the image gamut , but using a different printing method may help., it all depends on the printing technique used in the original. I an assuming Sam's printed your image on conventional colour paper. Now it's possible that an inkjet printer may be able to provide you with a much wider gamut in the red direction. Looking at some typical profiles for colour paper and quality ink jet printers it would seem that there is more room in the red direction than that achived by typical photo printers. It may be worth looking t see if this helps

 

[skysh4rk]

Looking at some typical profiles for colour paper and quality ink jet printers it would seem that there is more room in the red direction than that achived by typical photo printers. It may be worth looking t see if this helps

Many thanks for replying. Do you know of any labs in particular that would have a paper and printer combination that would offer more room in the reds?

I've been googling around, but I haven't found much (maybe I'm using the wrong search terms?). I know that Sam's uses Fuji DPII paper, but I don't know what type of printer they have.

 

[Chappers]

It may be that any 6+ colour printer may do the trick. I had a quick look at the profile for Ilford Galerie Glossy paper on an Epson 2880 printer and that had a wider gamut than either Fuji paper on a Frontier or Kodak paper on a Noritsu printer. I think it's just a question of shopping around and having a few tests done.

 

[skysh4rk]

It may be that any 6+ colour printer may do the trick. I had a quick look at the profile for Ilford Galerie Glossy paper on an Epson 2880 printer and that had a wider gamut than either Fuji paper on a Frontier or Kodak paper on a Noritsu printer. I think it's just a question of shopping around and having a few tests done.

Righto, I'll have a look around for labs that offer that paper and printer combination and take it from there. Thanks again for your help.

-RJ

 

[mho]

You would be better looking for a printer that has a dedicated red and or a large ink set some of all the modern ink jets have around 10 or 12 inks and usually a red cartridge, easiest way to check is get hold of the printer / paper profile the printer will use and soft proof your image in say photoshop to see of the red will print correctly, then give it a go.

 

[skysh4rk]

You would be better looking for a printer that has a dedicated red and or a large ink set some of all the modern ink jets have around 10 or 12 inks and usually a red cartridge, easiest way to check is get hold of the printer / paper profile the printer will use and soft proof your image in say photoshop to see of the red will print correctly, then give it a go.

Yeah, I've downloaded some profiles from a few labs (e.g., Loxley, DSCL) and have tried soft proofing the images, but I haven't found anything yet that will print the reds anywhere close to what I'm looking for. I was hoping that maybe someone knew of a specific lab or printer/paper combination from their experiences that extended further into the reds.

 

[skysh4rk]

Hmmm... Right, so soft proofing shows that the Epson R2880 and Ilford Galerie Gloss paper can just about fit all of the colours into gamut (I have to slightly desaturate the reds, but it's so little that it's not noticeable).

The problem is that Ilford paper doesn't come in any sizes that are useful to me (I shoot 6x6 film almost exclusively and don't crop) and I'm guessing that I'd need to purchase this printer, which I'm not necessarily keen on.

Any suggestions for lab-based solutions?

 

[Chappers]

Have a look at ThePrint Space and Whitewall photolab

The Printspace will print on Canson Byrata paper which is very very similar to Ilford Galerie and Whitewall use Epson Hanhamula and Canson Both appear to use Epson K3 inks, so similar to the 2880. Also both companies provide profiles for soft proofing so you can heck the gamut range. But don't expect cheap prints. they are relatively expensive for small prints.

Depending on the amount fo printing you want it may be cheaper in the long run to do your own.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

You need to edit them in ProPhotoRGB or at least AdobeRGB, then print straight to Baryta papers with high quality inkjet. A conversion to sRGB at any point will kill the colours. Most labs have this nasty habit. Also forget any C-type prints that come from these big machines

 

[skysh4rk]

Have a look at ThePrint Space and Whitewall photolab

The Printspace will print on Canson Byrata paper which is very very similar to Ilford Galerie and Whitewall use Epson Hanhamula and Canson Both appear to use Epson K3 inks, so similar to the 2880. Also both companies provide profiles for soft proofing so you can heck the gamut range. But don't expect cheap prints. they are relatively expensive for small prints.

Depending on the amount fo printing you want it may be cheaper in the long run to do your own.

I'll have a look at the Printspace and Whitewall. At first glance though, I think the biggest problem I'll have is they don't offer much in the way of print sizes for the 1:1 ratio.

You need to edit them in ProPhotoRGB or at least AdobeRGB, then print straight to Baryta papers with high quality inkjet. A conversion to sRGB at any point will kill the colours. Most labs have this nasty habit. Also forget any C-type prints that come from these big machines

If sRGB will kill the colours, how come Lightroom doesn't show any problems when I soft proof with sRGB?

 

[LongLensPhotography]

I'll have a look at the Printspace and Whitewall. At first glance though, I think the biggest problem I'll have is they don't offer much in the way of print sizes for the 1:1 ratio.

Scissors?


If sRGB will kill the colours, how come Lightroom doesn't show any problems when I soft proof with sRGB?

You are using sRGB monitor then? P.S. I can only see reddish-organge, not red in your photos.

 

[skysh4rk]

You are using sRGB monitor then? P.S. I can only see reddish-organge, not red in your photos.

I'm using an iMac, but wouldn't Lightroom alert me to any out-of-gamut colours, regardless of how any monitor displays colours? When I choose the Loxley or DSCL labs ICC profile while soft proofing in Lightroom, it alerts me that the reds are out-of-gamut (there is a red overlay covering the affected areas), but it doesn't do so when I choose sRGB.

Yeah, in those examples, which I had hastily chosen, it is sort of an orangey-red colour, but it also applies to reds, such as the lights in this photo:

 

[Chappers]

Probably the reason you don't see gamut warnings on the iMac is that the colour gamut is within that of your monitor. Loxley and DCL are probably using photographic materials which have a much smaller gamut hence the warnings. You could try soft proofing with your monitor profile and see if you get an alert, but I suspect you wont.