newbie question about multi point AF

tikigod19

Suspended / Banned
Messages
136
Edit My Images
No
Hi all,

shooting my first wedding on Saturday (I know I know, I never wanted to do it and now I'm dreading it)

I was just thinking about the group shots, I know to shoot with f8 or so to make sure I dont have too narrow a dof, but should I have the AF set to single point or multi?

When set to milti and I half push the shutter it highlights say 4 out of 8 points. Does that mean that all of those points are in focus, or does it take an average and put your focal point there?

Surely the focussing is done by the lens so only one point can be in focus at one time? At least thats what I thought until I was baffled by this multi point thing...

thanks in advance


oh.. any good websites that suggest simple bride and groom poses?!

PANIC!!
 
Dunno :shrug:





maybe thats something you could say to your bride and groom when they ask you why the pictures all look crap

Heres a link to some bride & groom poses you could try

Dave:thumbs:
 
Last edited:
wow. you're great
 
Thanks :thumbs:

unfortunalty i wish i could say the same for the likelyhood of your b&g wedding photos

Dave:thumbs:
 
I wouldn't expect a lot of positive replies to be honest, the fact that you are asking simple questions like this but yet you are doing a wedding this Saturday is a recipe for disaster. It comes up all the time on here and all the responses are the same, pay for a pro photographer otherwise the wedding photos will be ruined. You could try putting up a post to see if any guys local to your area with some experience in weddings would be willing to do you a favour and help you out so you could be a 2nd shooter.

Clarke
 
Last edited:
Dunno :shrug:





maybe thats something you could say to your bride and groom when they ask you why the pictures all look crap

Heres a link to some bride & groom poses you could try

Dave:thumbs:
congratulations, for this week's most helpful post you win the seven day prize :thumbs:
 
i've videod over 200 weddings and do a lot of photography but just not weddings. I did not go touting for this wedding, they could not afford for a photographer so asked me as a friend to do it. I know they'll be delighted with what I offer but I am just not very confident.

Nevermind, I'll try to get my answers on another forum

Cheers
 
i've videod over 200 weddings and do a lot of photography but just not weddings. I did not go touting for this wedding, they could not afford for a photographer so asked me as a friend to do it. I know they'll be delighted with what I offer but I am just not very confident.

Nevermind, I'll try to get my answers on another forum

Cheers

Don't do that please!
There are more good than bad togs on here, please dont base all replies on one (not very helpfull) reply. I am sure some one will be along shortly to give a more informed answer!
 
tikigod, there are plenty of people on here who will be more than happy to offer help. The unhelpful ones simply won't be tolerated anymore as you can probably see.

Looking at your question I'd take it out of multi, stick it on single point, focus on what I want it to focus on, lock it and recompose the shot if necessary.
 
Surely the focussing is done by the lens so only one point can be in focus at one time? At least thats what I thought until I was baffled by this multi point thing...

Yes, but you (or the camera) can choose which point is in focus. The easiest way is to set the centre point, focus, and recompose or you can choose a point that is closer to the subject you're focusing on which should give you greater accuracy.

Good luck with the wedding.
 
tikigod, there are plenty of people on here who will be more than happy to offer help. The unhelpful ones simply won't be tolerated anymore as you can probably see.

Looking at your question I'd take it out of multi, stick it on single point, focus on what I want it to focus on, lock it and recompose the shot if necessary.

Thanks very much guys.

That is ofcourse what I'd normally do but having never used multi point af before I wasn't sure what the benefit of this would be.

Thanks again... Forecast says rain so had better make sure I have enough creative indoor ideas :(
 
Tikigod19 If the group is only a couple deep and you aren't too close F8 will be fine. Focus on the Bride as she is the most important person on the day.

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Good luck on the day.:thumbs:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Got to say I'm a bit gob-smacked

Admittedly Dave's response wasn't the most helpful, but perhaps there was some sense between the lines?

When I first read the OP's post my immediate reaction was I guess the same as Dave's. Maybe it's just me but I don't think I'd have the balls to do a wedding if I didn't know how to focus a camera.

I've only been at this for a year, but think I've still got a looong way to go before I see myself as being in a position when I feel I'm good enough to shoot and charge for a professional service.

Fair play to the OP, a braver man than me
 
I think that the response would have been more receptive if it had been posted on the talk basic section
 
Got to say I'm a bit gob-smacked

Admittedly Dave's response wasn't the most helpful, but perhaps there was some sense between the lines?

When I first read the OP's post my immediate reaction was I guess the same as Dave's. Maybe it's just me but I don't think I'd have the balls to do a wedding if I didn't know how to focus a camera.

I've only been at this for a year, but think I've still got a looong way to go before I see myself as being in a position when I feel I'm good enough to shoot and charge for a professional service.

Fair play to the OP, a braver man than me

To be fair, the B&G asked the OP to do it, not the other way round! There is no mention of payment, indeed, it says that they cannot afford a photographer, so asked as a friend to do. So good for him for saying yes!
The B&G must be aware of the OPs limitations, if not they should be made aware to avoid possible dissapointment, (i'm sure there won't be!)
I applaud him for asking about something he was not sure of!
 
The camera can only focus sharply at a specific distance. Everything closer or further away becomes progressively softer. The DOF defines how far in front of and behind your focused distance things will appear acceptably sharp. Using a smaller aperture will increase the DOF, but DOF is also influenced by camera format, focal length used and distance to subject. You can consult a DOF calculator to help you figure out what sort of aperture you might need for a given scenario. Here is one such calculator....

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

To be honest, unless your group shot is several rows deep you may find that shooting at f/8 is far more cautious than you need to be. Here is a small group shot taken with a 40mm focal length at f/4....

20100808_125453_5616_LR.jpg


Here is a 100% crop showing how sharp the faces are between all the rows. A 100% crop is pretty punishing. For real world use the image would appear sharper. even so, I think this is sharp enough front to back - at f/4. Please click the resize bar to view at 100%.

20100808_125453_5616_LR-1.jpg



I focused on the eyes of the woman in the centre of the picture. The DOF has carried the zone of acceptable sharpness sufficiently before and beyond my focus point for the needs of the image. To shoot at f/8 would gain me nothing useful in sharpness/DOF, but would cost me dearly in terms of ISO. I was already at 800 ISO and with my Speedlites at max power there was no more light available. To lose 2 stops on the aperture would have meant shooting at 3200 ISO to compensate. Doable for sure, but not necessary or desirable.

Since the camera can only focus at one distance it is best to choose your own single focus point and place that where you want focus to be attained. Using multiple focus points for a group shot is really not going to be helpful. Almost certainly it will end up focusing on the wrong thing.
 
To be fair, the B&G asked the OP to do it, not the other way round! There is no mention of payment, indeed, it says that they cannot afford a photographer, so asked as a friend to do. So good for him for saying yes!
The B&G must be aware of the OPs limitations, if not they should be made aware to avoid possible dissapointment, (i'm sure there won't be!)
I applaud him for asking about something he was not sure of!

Missed the bit about non payment further on, fair play then, different slant

Maybe this is of use

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-autofocus.htm
 
Tdodd thanks for the f4 sample, nowhere near as narrow as I suspected so as it'll be mainly smaller groups perhaps I'll stick with that or slightly above (numerically) depending on my backdrop and the effect that a narrower DOF will give.

To address a couple of other points, I tried to talk the B&G out of my services and recommended some cheap local photographers that I've worked with but they weren't having any of it!

MnM, I know how to focus a camera perfectly fine but I had never used multi point AF and judging by the delay in specific multi point related replies, I'd guess that quite a few of you more pro guys haven't either. Thanks very much for the link I'll have a read through now and finally clear this issue in my head.

To be honest technically I'm quite confident, the only thing I'm unsure of is how often to use my primes (I only have 2 bodies) or just play it safe and rely on an f3.5 zoom. Its more the creativity that I'm worried I'll lack, that you only get from experience.

Thanks everyone for your help. I'm still dreading it...
 
Tiki, assuming you are shooting Canon, in One Shot AF mode, with all AF points active, the camera will focus on the closest thing covered by a focus point that has sufficient contrast. In a group shot scenario that means you are likely to end up focused on the front row of the group, and probably the stomach/chest/hands/bouquet that is sticking out furthest forward. This is not what you want.

In AI Servo AF mode it's more complicated, and not a good plan to use for static group shots. It also operates in a very different way from One Shot, and not simply in so far as it tracks a moving subject. The interaction of AF points is more complex.

Don't even contemplate AI Focus mode. Pretend it does not exist.

By using One Shot AF and a single AF point you get to choose how deep within the group to focus. In a group 3-4 rows deep then focusing on the second row faces would be about right, but choose a focus point that reduces the movement needed for focus/recompose.

Also, consider rattling off a few frames for each pose/grouping to try to get a shot free of blinkers and funny looks. Take sufficient command of the shooting to make sure that eyes are on your camera when you take the shot, and not pointing in all direction looking into the lenses of other guests. By all means let guests take their shots, but ask politely for a moment or two to get your shots and to have the attention of the group on you when you shoot.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for that, very helpful advice.

Just seen you're in Essex too... Do you want to do it?! :)
 
Hah! I might have, but I already have a Plan A and a Plan B for Saturday. No room to add a Plan C. Sorry. Good luck. :)
 
Just another example of a group shot I've come across. This was at 35mm and f/5 on a full frame body, so that would be equivalent to 22mm and f/3.2 on a cropper....

http://timhpark.com/images/70th-1b.jpg

Focus was on the older gentleman in the front row. This made sure that hands, knees and shoes were sharp, as well as the people in the row behind. The very small third row also looks sharp and even the back of the room is fairly distinct. I'm sure you can appreciate how much overkill f/8 would be for a shot like this.
 
Last edited:
thanks for that. I've read that group shots should be shot at 50mm or more for a more flattering look, but this is 22m on a crop, would you advise moving back and zooming in slightly?

oh and "Cameraman - Suspended"

excellent :)
 
thanks for that. I've read that group shots should be shot at 50mm or more for a more flattering look, but this is 22m on a crop, would you advise moving back and zooming in slightly?

I have no idea where you read that. The flattering look comes from the perspective for the shot, and that is affected by the distance from the subject, not the focal length used.

If you were to try a headshot with a 22mm lens then you would get a slightly odd perspective, because you would have to shoot from a very short distance in order to fill the frame with just a head. That would emphasise features close to the lens, such as the nose, and diminish those further away, such as the ears. If you were to try a full length shot with the same focal length you would need to move further back, which would make the perspective less unusual. For a group shot you would move even further away, and there should be no problem of peculiar perspective. Using a focal length of 35mm equivalent, which is 22mm on a crop, should be fine. After all, is there enything unflattering about the image in the link I posted? My original shot was at only 40mm on full frame, which is equivalent to 25mm on a cropper. It does not look odd or unflattering to me.

In an ideal world you first choose where to stand for the shot and then you select the focal length necessary for the desired framing. Sometimes things like walls, rivers, fences limit your freedom to stand where you would like, or foreground obstructions (including other guests) limit your freedom to move further back, but you do what you can. Of course, you may also have creative goals to purposely use a wide shot, to take in a lot of the background scene, or a tighter shot to exclude background clutter.

Now, with that said, let's try some numbers. A good rule of thumb when shooting groups is to stand at least as far from the group as the group is wide and tall. e.g. if the group is 12' wide then stand at least 12' from the group. It so happens that a 22mm lens (35mm equivalent) will allow exactly that framing - 12' wide from 12' distance. That multiplies up of course. If your group is 20' wide then a 22mm lens will let you shoot the group from 20' away etc.. If your group is 8' wide then you could shoot from 8' away and so on. Ideally you would not want to shoot from a distance less than 8' due to perspective issues that would emerge. That isn't just about noses, but other factors too, like the fact that people at the edges of the group are further from the camera than those in the front and centre.

Now let's look at the DOF for the 12' wide at 12' distance figures for a 22mm lens.

At f/2.8 and focused at 12' (front row eyes) the DOF would cover from 8.5' to 20'. That's probably plenty for most group formations, with a safety margin for error.

At f/4 and focused at 12' the DOF would cover from 7.6' to 28'. It is hard to imagine that you would need a greater DOF than that for most group shots.

If you have a smaller group then let's look at the figures for 8x8 shooting....

At f/2.8 and focused at 8' (front row eyes again) the DOF would be from 6.3' to 11'. That could/should be fine for up to three rows of people. If you were to focus on the second row, let's say at 9.5', the DOF would be from 7.2' to 14'. That will include your front row people and many rows behind.

At f/4 and focused at 8' the DOF would be from 5.8' to 13'.

To sum all that up, for group shooting, a 22mm lens (35mm equivalent) used at not less than 8' from the group should give you a reasonable perspective and sufficient DOF for most group configurations even at f/2.8. For a little more safety, and perhaps improved lens sharpness then you could use f/4 instead. Just watch that stopping down more than necessary does not cost you in other areas such as shutter speed or ISO.
 
Last edited:
I have no idea where you read that. The flattering look comes from the perspective for the shot, and that is affected by the distance from the subject, not the focal length used.

If you were to try a headshot with a 22mm lens then you would get a slightly odd perspective, because you would have to shoot from a very short distance in order to fill the frame with just a head. That would emphasise features close to the lens, such as the nose, and dimish those further away, such as the ears. If you were to try a full length shot with the same focal length you would need to move further back, which would make the perspective less unusual. For a group shot you would move even further away, and there should be no problem of peculiar perspective. Using a focal length of 35mm equivalent, which is 22mm on a crop, should be fine. After all, is there enything unflattering about the image in the link I posted? My original shot was at only 40mm on full frame, which is equivalent to 25mm on a cropper. It does not look odd or unflattering to me.

In an ideal world you first choose where to stand for the shot and then you select the focal length necessary for the desired framing. Sometimes things like walls, rivers, fences limit your freedom to stand where you would like, or foreground obstructions (including other guests) limit your freedom to move further back, but you do what you can. Of course, you may also have creative goals to purposely use a wide shot, to take in a lot of the background scene, or a tighter shot to exclude background clutter.

Now, with that said, let's try some numbers. A good rule of thumb when shooting groups is to stand at least as far from the group as the group is wide and tall. e.g. if the group is 12' wide then stand at least 12' from the group. It so happens that a 22mm lens (35mm equivalent) will allow exactly that framing - 12' wide from 12' distance. That multiplies up of course. If your group is 20' wide then a 22mm lens will let you shoot the group from 20' away etc.. If your group is 8' wide then you could shoot from 8' away and so on. Ideally you would not want to shoot from a distance less than 8' due to perspective issues that would emerge. That isn't just about noses, but other factors too, like the fact that people at the edges of the group are further from the camera than those in the front and centre.

Now let's look at the DOF for the 12' wide at 12' distance figures for a 22mm lens.

At f/2.8 and focused at 12' (front row eyes) the DOF would cover from 8.5' to 20'. That's probably plenty for most group formations, with a safety margin for error.

At f/4 and focused at 12' the DOF would cover from 7.6' to 28'. It is hard to imagine that you would need a greater DOF than that for most group shots.

If you have a smaller group then let's look at the figures for 8x8 shooting....

At f/2.8 and focused at 8' (front row eyes again) the DOF would be from 6.3' to 11'. That could/should be fine for up to three rows of people. If you were to focus on the second row, let's say at 9.5', the DOF would be from 7.2' to 14'. That will include your front row people and many rows behind.

At f/4 and focused at 8' the DOF would be from 5.8' to 13'.

To sum all that up, for group shooting, a 22mm lens (35mm equivalent) used at not less than 8' from the group should give you a reasonable perspective and sufficient DOF for most group configurations even at f/2.8. For a little more safety, and perhaps improved lens sharpness then you could use f/4 instead. Just watch that stopping down more than necessary does not cost you in other areas such as shutter speed or ISO.

Excellent post - I, for one, found that really useful. :thumbs::clap:
 
Tdodd thank you so much for taking the time to write all of that. I've readmit twice and feel much more confident now.

If the pictures aren't awful I'll try to come back and post some examples!

Thanks again
 
well... the very bright low sunlight was my unexpected enemy on saturday... better than rain I suppose.

Groups were ok shooting on f4 and all seem in focus, but I had some out of focus shots when shooting couples indoors at f2 (even though they were in a straight line). I've learned that a general purpose zoom at 2.8 is a must (my zoom lens is f3.5-5 and I tend to use primes all of the time, but this cost me on saturday)

Here are a couple of shots, remember it was my first wedding photography attempt. I wont post any of the group shots as they're all pretty boring and nothing special (although in focus, so this thread served its purpose)

Oh.. I also shot WAY too many portraits compared to landscape but thats always been a problem I have!

d018.jpg


a011.jpg


a023%281%29.jpg


d001.jpg


b003.jpg
 
Looking pretty good to me.

f/2 can be pretty punishing if you are up close to your subject. Your DOF can become really thin, and any error in AF performance, or movement by photographer or subject after achieving focus can spell trouble.
 
Technically they may not be the greatest but you have captured some really happy moments there, clearly they were very relaxed in your company and you have done a brilliant job, well done.

Matt
 
Nice to see after an unhelpful first reply how many helpful posts were made.

In AI Servo AF mode it's more complicated, and not a good plan to use for static group shots. It also operates in a very different way from One Shot, and not simply in so far as it tracks a moving subject. The interaction of AF points is more complex.

A question

I shoot a lot of sport plus many other types of events and use back button focusing and single center AF point all the time (and Canon spend soooo much money developing multi points :lol:). My question - Is there any difference when shooting static shots in using AI Servo compared to one shot with my camera set-up ?

I've always been told when using a single focusing point and back focus button to acquire a focus point then let go before recompose there is no difference at all if camera is on AI Servo or One Shot.

thanks
 
In true One Shot mode the camera gathers more data before figuring out where to position the focus. In AI Servo the camera is operarting under time pressure to keep recalculating where the focus needs to be. In good light this may not matter much, but in dim light, such as shooting a church wedding in winter, using One Shot may allow the camera to secure focus in conditions where AI Servo will struggle.

In anything but lousy light I don't think you'll notice a difference in AF performance whether you shoot in true One Shot mode or simulate One Shot focusing whilst using AI Servo.

Somewhere on the net there is an article by Chuck Westfall, I think, where he describes this difference in low light AF performance.

EDIT : Article link - http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0905/tech-tips.html

Extract....

(Q) In poor lighting, say an exposure of f/1.2, 1/15 to 1/30 second, at ISO 800 in evaluative metering with an EOS-1D Mark III, selecting the center AF point manually, I'm observing a fairly significant difference in the AF sensitivity between One-Shot AF and AI Servo AF. In AI Servo mode, on an object with relatively decent contrast, the 1D Mark III is unable to lock focus. When I switch to One-Shot AF, the center AF point quite accurately focuses on the subject and gives a confirmation beep and I am able to capture the frame with extremely sharp accuracy handheld. It is almost as if in AI Servo mode, the AF sensitivity has suddenly switched "profiles" to a rather less sensitive "mode," so as to not be able to lock onto the subject in a fairly low-light situation, whereas One-Shot AF mode has absolutely no issues with that same situation and subject. Does my camera need to go back to Service or is the camera performing according to its design?

(A) The light level you describe (ISO 800, 1/15 at f/1.2) is close to the threshold of the EOS-1D Mark III's low-light AF sensitivity. Without the use of flash under these lighting conditions, it would be very difficult to obtain sharp photos at f/1.2 unless the camera was steadied through use of a tripod, and also the camera's reflex mirror should be locked prior to exposure. Assuming that you're prepared to take those considerations into account, then your observation about the difference in focusing capability between One-Shot AF and AI Servo AF for the EOS-1D Mark III is correct. Focus will lock on a subject with readable contrast in One-Shot AF, but AF will fail under the same lighting conditions in AI Servo AF. That is completely normal and to be expected. It's due to differences in the amount of time that light is allowed to accumulate on each pixel in the AF sensor. That period of time, which Canon does not disclose, is longer for One-Shot AF than it is for AI Servo AF, and the result is superior low-light performance for One-Shot AF. This is essentially the performance level that the EOS-1D Mark III is designed to offer in extremely low light, so there would be no benefit in sending the camera in for service on this issue.
 
Last edited:
Technically they may not be the greatest but you have captured some really happy moments there, clearly they were very relaxed in your company and you have done a brilliant job, well done.

Matt

thanks very much, lets hope they feel the same! Their expectations are low after I told them I'm far from a pro and recommended they invest in a local pro but I think they'll be ok. I have 220 images in total from morning up until end of photos (I left before speeches).

I'm just so annoyed that 70% are portrait. I find it hard to not shoot portrait when photographing a vertical object (a person!)

I also rushed too much when laying the dress out on occasions and as you can see from the fountain shot, cropped too tight and cut off the edge of the dress. If I were using my 50mm prime for this shot I could blame that and just say I didnt get back far enough, but I used a zoom lens so have no excuse other than inexperience!

I'm going to sell my nikon d90 now and buy something that doubles up as a 2nd video cam next season (probably a 5d mkii) so it'll be fun to use full frame for the first time. I've read that this gives a narrower depth of field and a wider field of view both of which would benefit me. (although I've learned to be very careful when using narrow DOF)

Thanks for the link Sapper, I'll read now.

What a positive thread from what started out as a bit of a slagging match! I've learned a lot, thanks.
 
Thanks Tim, your a star, that is a fantastic answer. I've never been convinced that there was no difference at all and it's nagged me for years. I did have to wait a whole 19 minutes from my post but there you go :lol:

I have a lot of time for Chuck Westfall, his comments are technical but have a bearing on the real world. Makes sense and I feel happier now using it for static shots in AI Servo as most of the time it's when I'm doing outside sports and don't have time to change modes therefore light isn't an issue but when I'm doing inside sport with no flash it's an important difference to take into account.

Thanks again.
 
Dont know what you were worried about they are not competition winners but the look good solid wedding photographs and if the rest are like these then I am sure the B&G will be very happy
 
Back
Top