My Second Attempt.

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Andy1

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Andy
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Following on from my post last week on my first attempt at photographing some things for the website, I thought I would show how I'm getting on (or not as the case may be).

These are the best so far, but in my opinion still have that obvious amateur look about them. My wife is happy with them (it's her website), but I feel they could be better. To me they seem over exposed, if I change the shutter speed or aperture by only 1 stop they seem far too dark.

Any opinions welcome.

HighlandRomanceCollectionLarge-small.jpg


HighlandRomanceTablePlanner-small.jpg
 
Cracking stuff! I might have gone for a slightly lighter background? You've nailed the hardest bit - getting the verticals vertical!
 
The exposure "problem" is not really a problem as far as I can see. The issue is one of dynamic range. Our eyes are capable of seeing something ludicrous like 13 stops but most cameras are only capable of something like 5-7 stops of dynamic range. Dynamic range beeing what is recorded as black and white.

You are dealing with a subject here that is.....ooh black and white and that is where I think the problem may lie.

That's where my product photography experience runs out of steam however. Hopefully Garry Edwards may be able to advise more on ways you could light the subject that might reduce that dynamic range. Garry.....Help! :)
 
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Yes, this is the hardest of the lot, being black and white.

I did try a white background last week, but that made things much more difficult, so the red was the easiest solution (not necessarily the best though).

It is currently lit by 3X500k lamps in a head, one each side of the subject, using a light tent. Like this (but the mattress has been removed from the bed, and the tent is on the base)

setup.jpg


Thanks for the replies. Alison, are you telling me there is a problem with my eyes, not the photograph? For once, I might wish this to be true. :lol:
 
Nope I'm just telling you that our eyes can see so much more than the camera and that might be what is giving you the exposure problem. If you move a stop one way you lose the whites, if you move one stop the other you lose the blacks. That's the limition of the camera as opposed to what your amazing eyes can do.
 
I understand. My hap-hazard method of learning has been to take numerous photographs, but just moving one stop at a time, and then looking at the results. It has helped see how things work, but has also been very confusing.

I want to get the photographs as good as they possibly can be, but on a limited budget it isn't going to be easy.
 
It isn't the most exciting subject in the world and I'm not sure at this stage what you could do to make it look more interesting...

Is there any texture to the cards or are they 'flat'
Is that a shiny metallic border around them? if so they should be lit to show it
Did you need to go for that maroon background? Colour from it has reflected onto the products.

With a bit more understanding of the products we may be able to make suggestions.
 
Thanks Garry, I'm out of my depth with this one but I know you will be able to help :)
 
Perhaps add some more wedding paraphernalia to fill it out, like flowers, champagne bottle and glasses to give it a setting and context?
 
Garry Edwards said:
It isn't the most exciting subject in the world and I'm not sure at this stage what you could do to make it look more interesting...

Is there any texture to the cards or are they 'flat'
Is that a shiny metallic border around them? if so they should be lit to show it
Did you need to go for that maroon background? Colour from it has reflected onto the products.

With a bit more understanding of the products we may be able to make suggestions.
Click to expand...

I tried a white background on my first try, but it made the lighting much harder (for me anyway). The red background produced better images, but I would have preferred to use white. The first attempt was posted here:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=255996

The cards themselves are flat, but with other card mounted ontop.

I will be taking some more photographs in a church and a marquee setting to show some of the products in-situ which might make things a little more interesting. These are purely to show what the items are. Although I don't like the reflections in the silver, I am not sure how to overcome this.

HighlandRomanceAcceptance.jpg
 
Had another play around this morning with the white background. Tried using the same settings and lighting as the first try, then switched things around.

From what I have read when using a light tent the lights should be directed through the sides of the tent. Due to only having two lights, and the size of the tent, this seems to be causing the background to appear grey. I tried directing the lights through the front of the tent (second image below).

Which do you prefer? I prefer the first one as the blue is more consistent, ut I don't like the grey background. However, i am not sure how to overcome this (without post processing).

2-1.jpg


1-1.jpg
 
Garry, your lighting course can't come soon enough! Although I am a little concerned about it, due to my obvious lack of knowledge.
 
Your shots are getting better - much better!
And the main reason for this is that you've now arranged them in a 3-dimensional way, so that they don't look totally flat.
And you've got rid of that scarlet background, which was transfering colour onto the products.

But it's still looking very cluttered, personally I would photograph each item individually and then include a group shot, just to show what's included. I would also include 1 or 2 'wedding props' but would avoid attractive-looking 3 dimensional subjects such look better than the products you're shooting...

As for the white background, you won't achieve that without extra lighting, so without spending money on equipment your best bet is to shoot against a black background (which will provide better lighting contrast) and cut out in PS.

Your light tent is actually a waste of time, the real answer is to throw it away and control the lighting properly - but that will involve spending a fair bit of money, so the compromise solution is to avoid the horrible flat balanced lighting by reducing the power of one of the lights or by getting a similar effect by moving it further away
 
Thanks, but I think it's more luck than anything. My wife is more than happy with them, but I am not. Not yet anyway.

That's what I am doing; one photo for the collection to show what's included, then everything individually. There are 6 product collections:

white with black
black with white (top photo)
blue with white (above)
Ivory with purple
Brown with gold
Ivory and burgundy

So 6 collection photos, plus around 10 individual photos for each collection.

If I am photographing black card on a black background, wont that make it much harder to remove the background on PS? Surely PS would struggle to see the contrast between the colour. Even blue card on black background must be difficult.

As there are 3 lamps in each unit, I have some control over the lighting. If I reduce the light, wont I need to compensate with the shutter speed? I would have assumed (probably in my ignorance) that this would then produce the same result as having the same light? You say to just reduce the power on one light, but wouldn't that cause shadow, or is that the point?

I will invest in more/better equipment over time, but for now I have to use what I've got. 1st lesson then, but proper equipment.

Would you suggest direction the lights though the side of the tent (as shown above), or through the front?
 
The whole idea is to create controlled shadows. Without shadow, it looks flat and 2 dimensional, so that's why you need to reduce the power on one side, creating a shadow. It won't affect the exposure (or not enough to matter).

You could try directing a light through the front, it may or may not help but it's worth trying.
As for cutting black out of black, it may be slightly more difficult but the quality improvement will be worth it.
 
Thanks Garry.

This image is with both lights through the front of the tent, although both set at the same level (all lamps on).

3lights.jpg


This one has only 1 lamp on one side, and 3 on the other:

1light.jpg


I will try them on a black background. I have no experience of PS, but will need to start learning that soon!

Would you suggest the black background for all of the items I am photographing? Even white card?
 
Right, let's try to explain this...

1. Black is a good background choice simply because it has no colour as such, so unwanted colour (as in your purple background shots) can't reflect where it isn't wanted. The same can be said of white, but unwanted light from a white background will reflect where it isn't wanted.
2. You need shadows to create a feeling of depth (1 3-dimensional look) and without shadows the products will look flat and boring. Lighting a light tent from each side, one side needs to be more brightly lit to create the shadow. The shadow needs to come from the 'hinged' side of the card (so the brighter light needs to come from the left in your cae) and it needs to be at an angle, maybe 45 deg, to look natural.
3. Lighting from the front can work and has the advantage that you don't get the diffusion effect created by the sides of the light tent - but if it's too frontal you'll get flat lighting once more, so you may light to place one light frontally but as far to the left as you can, with the second light to the right, shining through the wall of the light tent.

I can provide you with the lighting physics but you still have to experiment to see what works for you - that in fact is all that lighting really is, having an understanding of what light is and then seeing what you can achieve with it - trial and error. It isn't as difficult or as complicated as some people think:)
 
With regard to the dynamic range, couldn't you try some HDR shots to overcome this?
 
Thanks again!

My attempts so far have been trial and error, so will continue to keep going. I can see a massive improvement from using the black background. Although I tried with the black cards and it didn't look good (even with moving the lights/object).

Will keep experimenting. Thanks.
 
Just wanted to post and say you have made a huge difference between yesterday and today- the latest shots are looking very good :)
 
aligibbs said:
Just wanted to post and say you have made a huge difference between yesterday and today- the latest shots are looking very good :)
Click to expand...

Thanks, I have felt like giving up several times today. I seem to spend more time deleting work that I do saving it. Over 1000 photos taken and not one that's right!
 
If I was to do it without the light tent, what additional lights would I need? I'm just thinking ahead.
 
Andy1 said:
If I was to do it without the light tent, what additional lights would I need? I'm just thinking ahead.
Click to expand...

You could do it with your existing continuous light kit, simply using it without the light tent, although flash would be a much better option because it's much more controllable, has consistent colour temperature and can be fitted with modifiers such as softboxes. This kit would be ideal, it's out of stock at the moment but will be back in stock on Wednesday.
 
I have some diffusion covers for the current lights if that would also help.

Excuse my ignorance, but would the flash link into the camera? If so, would it depend on the type of camera used?

It seems like a good kit, although I don't actually understand what all of it's for. It's not much more than I have spent on the tent and lights. If only I had come on here before buying it. Oh well, all part of learning.
 
Yes, the diffusion cover on one light would help, although it isn't big enough for the group shot. However, you could place it inside the light tent and shine the light through it, so that the side of the light tent effectively becomes the light. Place it to the right of the subject and level with it. Place the other light (no diffusion) left and above, something like 45 deg.
At first, you'll find it harder than using a light tent, but once you've cracked it you'll find it much better.

The flash kit will work with any camera that has a flash shoe and that can be used manually.
 
Thanks Garry, will give it a try.

I want to try and master the equipment I have, then will look at upgrading to a better package.

It should work on the camera I am using, although it's not actually my camera so that's another piece of kit I need to buy at some point.
 
gman said:
With regard to the dynamic range, couldn't you try some HDR shots to overcome this?
Click to expand...

That is something I would like to try, but I don't want to try and run before I walk. Would be interesting to see the results.
 
Just to update on my progress since the last post on here.

Below are some more photographs taken in the last month. I still have a lot to learn, and tomorrows course should be very useful.

Victorian-Cones1.jpg


vcg_bride.jpg


PICT0085.jpg


handmade_birthday_card_30th.jpg


Butterfly.jpg
 
Hey Andy, first time I've seen this thread I skipped some of the answers but what immediately hit me was the amount you were trying to fit in to one picture and would have said get in closer and try to fill the frame with parts of the products.

Lo and behold your pics do that exactly at the end ;) Nailed it!
 
Hi Roger,

Yes one of the problems was the photo was too crowded.

I still need to sort the lighting out, but that should't be much of a problem thanks to the lighting course last Sunday (sponsored by Lencarta).
 
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