mixing e-ttl and optical slaves?

[dubcat]

Hi - I thought I had my head around this but clearly i don't.

Let's say I have two flashes which I control via e-TTL (i use the canon st-e2 transmitter). These will be my key light and my rim light or hair light. I then have two flashes which I manually set, are only used for lighting the background, and can not communicate with the st-e2 as they are not ettl.

Q1) Can i trigger the front two flashes via the st-e2 and then use the optical trigger for the background flashes?

Q2) If I WAS using rf-602 could i just have one transmitter, one receiver on the key, and then set all other flashes to optically trigger?

Thanks.
Dub

 

[crashtestmac]

Yes...!

Yes...

It is my understanding that you can do what you want to, at least i hope it is because i have just ordered a system to do the same...!

 

[david1701]

some optical slaves are clever enough to delay firing until the main burst I think my yn460 will I cound try with on camera ttl if you'd like?

 

[Cistron]

And some slaved flashguns are fast enough to fire twice (for pre- and exposure-flash), depending on the output power setting.

 

[dubcat]

I don't really understand the last two posts. However, it may help to say that my key flash is a 580-ex ii, my rim/hair light is a sigma super 500 dg (those two are in ettl controlled by st-e2 - but may move to manual set up controlled by rf602). My background lights I am yet to buy but am intending to buy those new yongun ones that are 580 ex clones.

 

[crashtestmac]

I will be doing somehting similar with an SB900 as a main light an SB600 as a fill and 2 460YN's on the background.

Mac

 

[Cistron]

I don't really understand the last two posts. However, it may help to say that my key flash is a 580-ex ii, my rim/hair light is a sigma super 500 dg (those two are in ettl controlled by st-e2 - but may move to manual set up controlled by rf602). My background lights I am yet to buy but am intending to buy those new yongun ones that are 580 ex clones.

A ttl-flash will send out a pre-flash to determine the correct flash-power required for the scence. Any flashgun set up as optical slave, will be triggered by this pre-flash and might not fire for the actual exposure. However, there are some speedlights that will ignore the ttl-pre-flash when set to a special mode and be triggered by the second flash only.

And my point was referring to flashguns that will simply fire for both flashes. This will require the recycling time to be fast enough, so full power obviously won't work.

 

[HoppyUK]

Hi - I thought I had my head around this but clearly i don't.

Let's say I have two flashes which I control via e-TTL (i use the canon st-e2 transmitter). These will be my key light and my rim light or hair light. I then have two flashes which I manually set, are only used for lighting the background, and can not communicate with the st-e2 as they are not ettl.

Q1) Can i trigger the front two flashes via the st-e2 and then use the optical trigger for the background flashes?

Q2) If I WAS using rf-602 could i just have one transmitter, one receiver on the key, and then set all other flashes to optically trigger?

Thanks.
Dub

Q1) No.

Q2) No.

You can't do it as described. The reality of mixing E-TTL and regular optical slave flash is problematic as the pre-flash messes everything up.

You could do it if the non E-TTL guns have a slave that ignores the pre-flash, which very few do. And of course the non E-TTL guns would be manual only.

Or you could do it by switching everything to manual, which disables the pre-flash. (Beware that some Canon guns have additional problems if you use them with regular optical slaves and while they will fire once, the slave then locks up and the flash has to be switched off to reset it. You need a modified slave, or one that is specially designed to get around this, eg Sonia.)

Or you could do it by using a radio trigger for each of the non E-TTL units, synched separately via the pc socket.

There is no easy way of getting E-TTL all round, or of mixing E-TTL and manual units. It's either expensive or complicated. The easiest way is probably to stump up for a couple of E-TTL compatible slave flash guns. Or just go full manual/radio - RF-602 triggers are cheap and pretty good, one for each unit.

It sounds like you have a studio set up. Manual is usually the preferred option there anyway. There's very little benefit to E-TTL in the studio, arguably the opposite.

Hope this makes sense. This sort of thing does your head in

 

[dubcat]

Hoppy, thanks. I do understand. My studio is just my living room with a temporary backdrop. I will move to full manual (need to read strobist 101).

So it looks like I will need to invest in 4 receivers and a transmitter. I wish i had not bought the st-e2 now Not had it long and it cost a lot.

 

[dubcat]

Reading the above maybe i should just stick to my two flash in ettl for now and work with a black backdrop. I have not actually bought the two background flashes yet. I was going to get them so I could do shots with a white backdrop.

 

[-halli-]

I have found that my 400D still "double flashes" even in manual mode.

However, I have found that if I press the star button it flashes, and "FEL" appears on the screen, then if I keep my finger on the star button and take the picture the (built-in) flash only fires once. (dig my in-depth knowledge of all the terminology )

I can therefore use my optical cheapy cube triggers with my Cobra flashguns that have too high a voltage to use on the camera hotshoe.

I wonder if this would work with your eTTL flashes?

 

[Kaouthia]

Q2) If I WAS using rf-602 could i just have one transmitter, one receiver on the key, and then set all other flashes to optically trigger?

Yes, but not with TTL. Manual power only.

 

[HoppyUK]

Hoppy, thanks. I do understand. My studio is just my living room with a temporary backdrop. I will move to full manual (need to read strobist 101).

So it looks like I will need to invest in 4 receivers and a transmitter. I wish i had not bought the st-e2 now Not had it long and it cost a lot.

That's probably the best idea, long term. The triggers will work, reliably, in any situation (indoors and out) with any flash units, including studio heads. But see reply below

You could sell the ST-E2 for good money, no problem. The for sale section here is excellent. But it's a good unit, and E-TTL is a brilliant system that does some amazing things that are impossible any other way. TBH, you're messing it about, and not working to its strengths. I think you'd miss it one day.

Reading the above maybe i should just stick to my two flash in ettl for now and work with a black backdrop. I have not actually bought the two background flashes yet. I was going to get them so I could do shots with a white backdrop.

Then you're in luck! If you've not bought the background flashes, get a couple of these YN-460II units from FITP They're a bit of a bargain at £40 and they have an S2 slave mode http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=1809826&postcount=9

A lot of peeps on here are using them, and the S2 slave mode ignores the pre-flash and only fires on the main flash. Manual only for the background, but you're away with E-TTL for the front lights. Sorted

I've not used these guns. Check with Graham (FITP) on any limitations that the built-in slaves might have, just to be sure. But if they work as described, you're away and flying.

I have found that my 400D still "double flashes" even in manual mode.

However, I have found that if I press the star button it flashes, and "FEL" appears on the screen, then if I keep my finger on the star button and take the picture the (built-in) flash only fires once. (dig my in-depth knowledge of all the terminology )

I can therefore use my optical cheapy cube triggers with my Cobra flashguns that have too high a voltage to use on the camera hotshoe.

I wonder if this would work with your eTTL flashes?

This work-around trick works. But like the other workaround fudges it's impractical. Basically it means you fire the background flashes twice - once off the pre-flash separately, and then again when the main flash goes. You have to do this for every shot.

 

[Kaouthia]

A lot of peeps on here are using them, and the S2 slave mode ignores the pre-flash and only fires on the main flash. Manual only for the background, but you're away with E-TTL for the front lights. Sorted

That's what I do. I may not necessarily use TTL (sometimes though), but I'll use CLS (which has the preflashes) with my SB-900s, then have the YN460-II flashes in S2 mode just to light the background.

That way, I know that if I move my main lights or my subject to light them slightly differently, my background will always have the same identical exposure (assuming I don't change my aperture).

 

[HoppyUK]

That's what I do. I may not necessarily use TTL (sometimes though), but I'll use CLS (which has the preflashes) with my SB-900s, then have the YN460-II flashes in S2 mode just to light the background.

That way, I know that if I move my main lights or my subject to light them slightly differently, my background will always have the same identical exposure (assuming I don't change my aperture).

That sounds like a sweet way of working Kind of best of both worlds, thanks to that cunning S2 mode

I don't know of any other flash guns that can do that. I guess there must be others?

 

[Kaouthia]

That sounds like a sweet way of working Kind of best of both worlds, thanks to that cunning S2 mode

That was my whole reason for getting the YN460-II flashes in the first place. Fantastic feature. But, now they're available in the for sale forum along with my SB-600 if anybody wants to trade me for an SB-900 (hint hint).

If nobody takes me up on the offer, then that's ok, but at present they're surplus to requirements as it's not a setup I really do all that often. It does work well when I need it though.

I don't know of any other flash guns that can do that. I guess there must be others?

I'm not sure what others have a pre-flash ignoring slave mode, but I know some of the Nissin flashes are compatible with CLS, so can be added to the mix. The problem is they're almost as expensive as the Nikon equivalents they're intended to replace. As far as Canon compatible, I'm not sure.

 

[HoppyUK]

That was my whole reason for getting the YN460-II flashes in the first place. Fantastic feature. But, now they're available in the for sale forum along with my SB-600 if anybody wants to trade me for an SB-900 (hint hint).

If nobody takes me up on the offer, then that's ok, but at present they're surplus to requirements as it's not a setup I really do all that often. It does work well when I need it though.

Is this your ad John? http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=236522

I'm not sure what others have a pre-flash ignoring slave mode, but I know some of the Nissin flashes are compatible with CLS, so can be added to the mix. The problem is they're almost as expensive as the Nikon equivalents they're intended to replace. As far as Canon compatible, I'm not sure.

I think Nissin, Sigma and Metz are all E-TTL/iTTL compatible, no doubt others. But don't have the pre-flash ignore feature.

Some of the new Elinchrom studio heads have it, which is smart thinking - means you can trigger their units via the on-board, or mix in E-TTL etc. Maybe others will come along. Yongnuo seem to have their finger on the strobists' pulse ATM, with really well priced kit and cool strobisty features.

 

[Kaouthia]

Is this your ad John? http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=236522

Yeah, that's the one, thanks for the shameless plug

Some of the new Elinchrom studio heads have it, which is smart thinking - means you can trigger their units via the on-board, or mix in E-TTL etc. Maybe others will come along.

Now that's interesting. I'll have to keep an eye on these developments.

Yongnuo seem to have their finger on the strobists' pulse ATM, with really well priced kit and cool strobisty features.

They definitely seem to. If they ever manage to produce something that'll support HSS, I'll buy a dozen.

 

[HoppyUK]

Yeah, that's the one, thanks for the shameless plug


Now that's interesting. I'll have to keep an eye on these developments.


They definitely seem to. If they ever manage to produce something that'll support HSS, I'll buy a dozen.

I wonder if YN are working on a TTL Pocket Wizard clone That thing is flippin clever with Hypersync and enhanced HSS that even Canon can't match.

If they made it 2.4GHz (because they don't need to be backwards compatible) I think it would bypass all the RF interference problems that PW are having. And at the kind of price we know YN can achieve, PW might be forced to rethink their pricing and abandon their 'Made in America' tag.

On the other hand, while I'm in wondering mood, PW seem to be collecting a lot of tasty patents along the way which, ironically, Canon/Nikon would need in order to incorporate radio auto-TTL into their own systems. I think it's got to come, at least as an option sometime. That would be fairly fab

Wondering some more, if one or other of Canon/Nikon got hold of those patents on an exclusive basis, it could pretty much lock out the other in terms of the camera brand for serious strobists. Canon has got the most money; Nikon can't afford to miss out... That makes for a cunning PW business plan

 

[Richard King]

Hi - I thought I had my head around this but clearly i don't.

Let's say I have two flashes which I control via e-TTL (i use the canon st-e2 transmitter). These will be my key light and my rim light or hair light. I then have two flashes which I manually set, are only used for lighting the background, and can not communicate with the st-e2 as they are not ettl.

Q1) Can i trigger the front two flashes via the st-e2 and then use the optical trigger for the background flashes?

Q2) If I WAS using rf-602 could i just have one transmitter, one receiver on the key, and then set all other flashes to optically trigger?

Thanks.
Dub

go back to basics...

...and ask what you are expecting your camera to figure out here - you want your camera to nail exposure for 2+ flashes. Even if your camera can do this, the result will be only any good by luck

Your camera wont know the differentials you want between background, rim, main and key-light. The way to set this up and get a decent result is:

Set the camera to manual, light the background first, and then add a light in at a time, and adjust the power until you are happy. If you want, this can involve a flash meter

TTL and variants is superb at dealing with a single flashgun and coping with bouncing it of a wall on the fly

CLS is great, but to get great results with more than 1 gun, you need to start balancing things, at which point the menus on the flashguns are mad

 

[dubcat]

Hoppy - the YN-560 flashes I am looking at do have S2 mode. So just to be clear this means I CAN use my existing flashes in ETTL mode and then use a pair of yn-560's as background flashes in S2 mode as optical slaves?

I will eventually go to manual all around but it will take me time to learn that. Also I don't want to buy a light meter and the RF602's just yet either.

Richard - the ST-E2 transmitter supports ratio's.

 

[Cistron]

Also I don't want to buy a light meter and the RF602's just yet either.

I don't think you need a light meter. Set power, estimate aperature, capture image, correct aperature.

 

[HoppyUK]

Hoppy - the YN-560 flashes I am looking at do have S2 mode. So just to be clear this means I CAN use my existing flashes in ETTL mode and then use a pair of yn-560's as background flashes in S2 mode as optical slaves?

I will eventually go to manual all around but it will take me time to learn that. Also I don't want to buy a light meter and the RF602's just yet either.

Richard - the ST-E2 transmitter supports ratio's.

Yes