Metering and ISO - manual

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Trying to get my head round metering and wondering what happens if I set my film to box speed but use my external meter to 1 stop less (i.e. 400 in camera, 200 on meter) when the film is processed assuming processing is left standard and no specific instructions are offered to develop at anything other than at box speed.

I'm trying to understand if I'm then over exposing the film or if I need to set the film to ISO200 even if it's box speed ISO400.

Any ideas
Thanks.
 
Trying to get my head round metering and wondering what happens if I set my film to box speed but use my external meter to 1 stop less (i.e. 400 in camera, 200 on meter) when the film is processed assuming processing is left standard and no specific instructions are offered to develop at anything other than at box speed.

I'm trying to understand if I'm then over exposing the film or if I need to set the film to ISO200 even if it's box speed ISO400.

Any ideas
Thanks.

I'm confused. If you're using an external meter to meter and it's set for a stop of overexposure, then how can you have your camera set to box speed?

You can only set a speed on a camera if the camera is doing the metering. If you're applying your meter's settings, then any speed set on the camera is meaningless.

I often set my external meter to a stop or two slower than box speed—although it will depend on the film—and then just develop as normal.
 
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Sorry, maybe I'm not explaining myself, trying to get to grips with manual metering and exposure.

If I set my film ISO to 400 (let's say I'm using Portra400) in camera and then use an external meter that's set to ISO200 and set the camera for shutter/aperture from those readings what happens when the film is then developed as normal?
 
Sorry, maybe I'm not explaining myself, trying to get to grips with manual metering and exposure.

If I set my film ISO to 400 (let's say I'm using Portra400) in camera and then use an external meter that's set to ISO200 and set the camera for shutter/aperture from those readings what happens when the film is then developed as normal?

But you can't both have your camera set to 400 and your external meter to 200. You will have to pick one for your metering; you can't use both at the same time. If you're using the exposure settings from your external meter, then the film speed set on the camera is meaningless.

If you follow your external meter that is set for ISO 200, you will have overexposed one stop, but that is virtually meaningless for colour negative. It is meaningful for colour positive, however, as slide film has less latitude.

No matter which you choose though, you will develop as normal with colour negative in most cases. With black and white, you might potentially take a different approach, but that will really depend on what aesthetic you're looking for and the film you're using. Ordinarily though, I only change development for shooting faster than box speed.
 
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Sorry, maybe I'm not explaining myself, trying to get to grips with manual metering and exposure.

If I set my film ISO to 400 (let's say I'm using Portra400) in camera and then use an external meter that's set to ISO200 and set the camera for shutter/aperture from those readings what happens when the film is then developed as normal?


In a film camera it makes no difference what ASA/ISO you set it to if you are setting the aperture and shutter speed.

You can set it to 50000 and it makes no difference - unless you are using the meter in the camera to deduce the settings.
All you are doing is telling the meter the sensitivity of the film. If you don't use the meter you can tell it anything you want.
 
Dave, note sure if the helps but I tend to use a hand held better whatever camera I am using, whether it is my 1957 meter less Rolliecord, my Nikon F5 or Pentax 645N, both of which have Matrix metering. I tend to over expose colour negative film by at least one stop. I do this be setting my hand held meter to half box speed. I set the camera meter to box speed for no other reason than as a reminder of the film in the camera. The meter in the camera plays no part in the exposure measuring process. When I send the film to the lab it is processed at box speed as normal. This approach tends to give me good dense negs that scan well.
 
Maybe there's a terminology misunderstanding, here. You don't set film to a given speed, you use a given speed. Setting the ISO sensitivity of the image capture surface in the camera is really something that comes from digital. In other words, you're using 400 film but metering for 200. Putting the two together, you'd then be said to be rating the film at 200 if you're using the meter's exposure settings.

In this case, the meter is giving readings for an ISO that's one stop less than the film, so it wants to provide more light, meaning you'd over-expose the film by one stop. The effect of that depends on the film. Negative films are generally quite tolerant of exposure errors, and faster films more than slower films. The effect of over-exposure is also affected by the contrast in the scene being photographed - on an overcast day, the exposure might still be fine, but on a bright day, the highlights might start to get washed out. Best way to find out is to take a shot at box speed, and then another at +1 stop (or even a whole series of shots at 1 stop intervals) and see what happens - while taking note of the contrast in the subject.
 
Your profile is not open to public view, however I am presuming that you shoot digital

Have you never adjusted the exposure for any given scene or do you simply allow the cameras metering to judge it automatically??

If the latter, I'm interested how you can expose subjects correctly in difficult lighting conditions without understanding how exposure works

Over / Under exposure by adjusting camera settings or manually setting the aperture/ shutter speed after metering with a handheld metering is the same regardless of camera albeit exposing for shadows is necessary for negative film as opposed to highlights with digi
 
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He appears to be saying that he uses an external meter because film cameras don't have reliable meters (which isn't true, but I'll let that pass). Since the camera isn't metering, as stated above he could set anything on the camera's meter as he's ignoring it.

His advice appears to be not too far from what I'd regard as the truth, except for the thorny question of reversal (slide) film where his method would be disasterous (in my opinion) in ensuring blown highlights. Oddly enough, he's recommending an incident meter which is normally recommended for slide film rather than a reflected light meter (usually favoured for negative film).

All the above assumes I read and understood correctly what he was saying.
 
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Thanks. Really appreciate trying to answer this for me - so in this case what would this guy be setting his film to in camera against his external meter?

http://www.johnnypatience.com/metering-for-film/

In his case, as I stated above, he could set the ASA to 25 or 25000. It makes no difference. He is using an external meter for his readings and setting the aperture and shutter speed manually.

He is overexposing the film by one stop which is good practice with certain film (not all film). The film is then processed as normal.

If you know your camera and its meter you can figure out yourself what settings you need.
 
I've just bought a manual camera and interested to find out more how to shoot in this way as the results appear to be very good.

Usually I rely on the cameras metering system (digital or film) and adjust accordingly. However having just bought a meterless camera I'm keen to learn more about getting around it with an external handheld meter.
 
Usually I rely on the cameras metering system (digital or film) and adjust accordingly

This is exactly my point

If you " adjust accordingly", then presumably that adjustment is for scenes that offer difficult lighting conditions ...backlit subjects etc

When you make the adjustment on a digital camera do you understand what effect the adjustment is going to have or is it simply pot luck that it will offer the exposure that you hope for??

Assuming that you know what changes will occur to exposure by making those adjustments, it leaves me at a complete loss as to why you asked your original question
 
May I suggest that if you are concerned about stuffing film shots and the potential cost involved if using labs for developing, that you have a play by putting your digi camera in full manual mode and use a handheld meter for every shot.........If you don't get the correct exposure from the settings that you put into the camera, you have the opportunity to shoot umpteen frames, chimp to your hearts content ( one of many reasons why I prefer film shooting) and be happy in the knowledge that it's costing very little in consumables (film, labs, chems etc)
 
The original question was asked based on the understanding that the film ISO was a firm setting and the adjustment to shutter speed and aperture are not, based on my limited understanding of film cameras.

Of course with digital auto ISO is a wonderful thing and something I use almost exclusively. I'm far less confident with film other than using a metered system such as with my OM2, I've never shot a meterless camera before and so it's all a bit of a learning curve!
 
Reading the article, the author is just suggesting metering a scene at 1 stop over (half the box ISO) to lift the shadows as negative film has enough latitude to manage the highlights. As you have a meterless (manual) camera, there is no ISO setting on the camera, only the film you load and possibly a reminder dial so you know what's loaded.

If you want to try what the article suggests, load ISO 400 film into your camera, set your external meter (or app) to ISO 200 then transfer the shutter speed/aperture it suggests to the camera and take your shot.

Asha's suggestion about about using digital to do the same same thing would obviously use fixed ISO to simulate the film.
 
As you have a meterless (manual) camera, there is no ISO setting on the camera, only the film you load and possibly a reminder dial so you know what's loaded.

Thanks, think I'm with it now. My confusion has been from assuming I need to set the ISO in camera relating to the film I'm using.

It's all new to me :thinking:
 
so it's all a bit of a learning curve

IMO the start of that curve for anyone wishing to properly understand exposure wether it be for film or digital begins with the Sunny F/16 ERule which sets the foundation of any meter, be it handheld, analogue,, digital or in camera........In fact Sunny F/16 is practically foolproof, easier, cheaper and less time consuming than any meter!

with digital auto ISO is a wonderful thing

I don't agree as it leads to people, including yourself, having a limited understanding as to how metering works
 
The original question was asked based on the understanding that the film ISO was a firm setting and the adjustment to shutter speed and aperture are not, based on my limited understanding of film cameras.

Film speed is better viewed as a recommendation rather than something fixed. What it is is an expression of how a particular film will behave when exposed to a variety of scenes and then put through a particular development process. Unlike digital, film (negative film, here) doesn't have a linear response to ever-increasing brightness - the highlights tend to compress, meaning that, at a certain point, the density of the negative is no longer proportional to the amount of light that hits it. The highlights might still become more dense on the negative with an extra stop, but the change in density will be less than what you might get with a mid tone. This compression can make things tricky when you come to print or scan because the printing or scanning process has to compensate for the compression to correctly render the original differences in brightness in the various parts of the scene. At the other end of the scale, the shadows need sufficient exposure to effect the chemical change that occurs in the emulsion - too little and you just don't record the details (negative density is too low).

Film box speed is the maker's recommendation for how to expose the film and goes hand in hand with a recommended processing regime. The idea is that the film will record densities that tend to stay away from the compressed region in the highlights while still getting sufficient detail in the shadows.

Both things can be varied - you can rate the film at a different speed and over or under expose as a result, and you can adjust the development process to compensate (more development, or less development, or use techniques to develop some areas of the negative more than others). For some variations, there are documented recommendations (like pushing film - under-exposing, and then developing it more), either from the makers or photographers in the field. However, varying these can result in poorer negatives (eg, pushing tends to increase grain and lose shadow detail - but it might be your only option for getting a shot).

If you're just getting started with film, just expose at box speed and see what happens. There's little point in diving into the complexities of exposure (and processing) until you're in a position to make an informed choice. Do box speed first, and maybe try a few shots of the same scene at different ISOs to see how they compare with box speed. From that, you'll begin to understand what sort of difference it can make.


Of course with digital auto ISO is a wonderful thing and something I use almost exclusively. I'm far less confident with film other than using a metered system such as with my OM2, I've never shot a meterless camera before and so it's all a bit of a learning curve!

If your camera meter works, then use it - they're generally perfectly fine. If you want to try shooting without a meter at all, read up on the sunny 16 method.

Regarding that blog article, it seems badly written or plain mistaken in places to me. This bit...

"Because color negative film usually gives the most pleasant results when overexposed, a lot of film photographers rate their film at half box speed (ISO 200 instead of ISO 400) and expose for the shadows, which results in 2-3 stops of overexposure."

...doesn't seem right. As I understand it, exposing for the shadows means taking a reading from the shadows and then adjusting the exposure to place the shadows at a certain number of stops away from the mid tone (meters always give a reading that they think is correct for a mid tone - so-called 18% grey). In other words, if you meter a shadow area and want it to come out suitably dark in the final result, you need to under expose from that reading. If you exposed at the shadow reading and used a standard processing method, your shadows would render as a mid tone - which ain't right, generally speaking. So far as I'm aware, 'a lot of photographers' (I wonder how many, and does he have their names and addresses, or is he just making an unfounded assumption?) don't meter in the way he describes.

His invocation of the zone system...

"An incident light meter always shows a reading for neutral grey, which is zone “V”. Instead of zone “V” you assign zone “II” to “IV” by literally holding your meter into the shadow (the darkest part of the picture)."

...seems a bit odd. Last time I read The Negative, you assign the meter's 'zone V reading' of the shadow to the zone that you want to place the shadows on. (The meter sees the shadow as a poorly lit mid tone - zone V - and wants you to give it extra exposure so that it renders as a mid tone in the final result.) Since you know it's really a shadow, you have to decide how dark it should be compared to a true mid tone in the scene (2 stops darker, 3 stops, or whatever). What he's saying doesn't seem to make much sense, and it's questionable to bring up the zone system in an article that is presumably aimed at beginning film photographers without covering the principles behind it properly (something that took Ansel Adams a lot more than half a paragraph to do). How many beginning film photographers have enough knowledge of the zone system to grasp what he's talking about? And do any that do have such a grasp need to read his article? Virtually none, and no they don't.

I would ignore that article. He might have a method that works for him, but I don't think he's describing it very well. I think some if it is likely to lead more to confusion than improved understanding.

So... Box speed with a meter. Do a few over and under exposures (take notes). Learn sunny 16. 90% or more of the time, your exposures will be fine. The ones that aren't are the source of learning more - post the iffy results here and ask questions.
 
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Thanks @Nomad Z, really appreciate those thoughts. And you other guys that have chipped in. :)
 
Thanks @Nomad Z, really appreciate those thoughts. And you other guys that have chipped in. :)

I think the key thing is to avoid over-complicating things. The standard or recommended procedures from the people that actually make the film have served millions of photographers well for a very long time. Back in the day, I exposed countless frames of FP4 and various slide films using nothing more than the meter in my mechanical Minolta SRT-303 (and a religiously consistent standard developing regime for the B&W), and hardly ever got a duff exposure.
 
Trying to get my head round metering and wondering what happens if I set my film to box speed but use my external meter to 1 stop less (i.e. 400 in camera, 200 on meter) when the film is processed assuming processing is left standard and no specific instructions are offered to develop at anything other than at box speed.

I'm trying to understand if I'm then over exposing the film or if I need to set the film to ISO200 even if it's box speed ISO400.

Any ideas
Thanks.

as was said earlier you dont set the film to box speed you set the ( a ) lightmeter to box speed so if you meter for iso 200 and the box speed is 400 you will overexpose by one stop dont make any developing adjustments for one stop its not going to make a lot of difference for negs
 
Regarding that blog article, it seems badly written or plain mistaken in places to me. This bit...

"Because color negative film usually gives the most pleasant results when overexposed, a lot of film photographers rate their film at half box speed (ISO 200 instead of ISO 400) and expose for the shadows, which results in 2-3 stops of overexposure."

...doesn't seem right. As I understand it, exposing for the shadows means taking a reading from the shadows and then adjusting the exposure to place the shadows at a certain number of stops away from the mid tone (meters always give a reading that they think is correct for a mid tone - so-called 18% grey). In other words, if you meter a shadow area and want it to come out suitably dark in the final result, you need to under expose from that reading. If you exposed at the shadow reading and used a standard processing method, your shadows would render as a mid tone - which ain't right, generally speaking. So far as I'm aware, 'a lot of photographers' (I wonder how many, and does he have their names and addresses, or is he just making an unfounded assumption?) don't meter in the way he describes.

The method of exposing for the shadows is quite popular with colour negative and I use it frequently myself. My lab also provides feedback regarding exposure or any other issues that would affect your results (e.g., underexposure, overexposure, etc.) and they don't seem to have any issues with this style of metering.

In other words, if you meter a shadow area and want it to come out suitably dark in the final result, you need to under expose from that reading.

Overexposing or metering for shadows with film is not like digital and doesn't necessarily mean areas will be brighter or not "suitably dark". Check out the link below where I share photos that I mistakenly overexposed by many stops:

Carmencita - How Exposure Affects Film
 
All good advice here, I'd add one more bit on a slightly tangential note. You'll be used to having exposure information with the photo in the EXIF metadata, so you can look at a photo and work out visually how you could have changed the settings to get better exposure. Asha's idea of using your digi camera in all-manual mode would be useful here. However, there's (obviously) no EXIF with film, and by the time you get your results back from the lab, the precise settings for a particular scene will likely be lost to your memory. So, it's worth taking notes of exposure while experimenting. I've tried various approaches to this: making verbal notes on a pocket recorder (annoying transcription problem later), making notes on a bit of paper or pad (ditto), but finally ended up using Evernote on my phone, which is always with me and automagically syncs to my Mac back home. Then when I get the results back I can look at what settings I used.

This is a bit of a pain, so when I'm not particularly checking my exposure habits I don't often note all the settings, but I do try and note film and lens combinations and anything of interest for a series of photos.

Judging the results is made a bit more difficult if the lab scans your negatives as they will compensate to some extent for over or under exposure (just as used to happen in the darkroom days). So it's worth having a quick look at the negatives themselves, looking for overly dense or overly thin negatives. After a while you'll get a better feel for what a well-exposed negative should look like.

Another good exercise is to leave your light meter in your pocket and try the same exercise using the Sunny 16 rule.

BTW I tend to set my meter at 1/3 or 2/3 stop over (so 320 or 250 for 400 ISO film) but then expose for the shadows... but I'm using the centre-weighted in-camera meter. Seems to work out most of the time. There's a limit to how much shadow and sky detail you can get, of course.

Last point... AFAIK one negative film where you should be a bit more precise about exposure is Kodak Ektar 100; can be a bit weird if you get things out.
 
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