LR and PS basic file saving question

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Clouds

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hi folks

just starting my PS/LR journey and looking at some youtube etc for this

just a quick question if I may regarding storing and import/export to help me understand storage

so your original photo file , we will call photo A is on your desktop

LR - you import photo A into LR and edit it , its now photo A edited, photo A original is still on desk top but photo A edited is saved in LR catalogue and if you wanted it in desktop you would need to export it to desktop where you would have orginal A and edited A

PH , you bring the photo into PS and can save any editing by save , or save as and rename file, the photo/s however are stored on the desktop not in PS

thanks
 
Clouds said:
hi folks

just starting my PS/LR journey and looking at some youtube etc for this

just a quick question if I may regarding storing and import/export to help me understand storage

so your original photo file , we will call photo A is on your desktop

LR - you import photo A into LR and edit it , its now photo A edited, photo A original is still on desk top but photo A edited is saved in LR catalogue and if you wanted it in desktop you would need to export it to desktop where you would have orginal A and edited A

PH , you bring the photo into PS and can save any editing by save , or save as and rename file, the photo/s however are stored on the desktop not in PS

thanks
Click to expand...
Sounds right to me
 
Best to have a folder structure, which LR 'import' will reference ...?
 
Potentially much more complicated...

LR; if you use "copy" during import you will have a second image A in LR's file system, and the copy on the desktop will be redundant. If you use "move" then Image A will be moved into LR's file system; it will not be on the desktop anymore. And if you use "add" during the import Image A will not be located within LR's file system; it will remain on the desktop (linked).

When you edit an image in LR no changes are actually made to the file. The edits are saved as a set of instructions/steps in LR's database. What you are seeing in LR is the result that will be created if/when those edits are ever applied to the original file. In order to actually have a second image you must save/export (create) the resulting image; the original file is never changed. This is what makes LR a nondestructive raw editor and different from PS.

PS is not a raw editor; and it is not necessarily nondestructive. In order to edit a raw image in PS it must first be converted into a second image (tiff/psd/jpeg). And then that second image must be saved in order to save the edits... it is only nondestructive if the edits are made using separate layers and those layers are saved (psd/tiff), or if a second image file is created during the save/export process (different name).
 
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sk66 said:
Potentially much more complicated...

LR; if you use "copy" during import you will have a second image A in LR's file system, and the copy on the desktop will be redundant. If you use "move" then Image A will be moved into LR's file system; it will not be on the desktop anymore. And if you use "add" during the import Image A will not be located within LR's file system; it will remain on the desktop (linked).

When you edit an image in LR no changes are actually made to the file. The edits are saved as a set of instructions/steps in LR's database. What you are seeing in LR is the result that will be created if/when those edits are ever applied to the original file. In order to actually have a second image you must save/export (create) the resulting image; the original file is never changed. This is what makes LR a nondestructive raw editor and different from PS.

PS is not a raw editor; and it is not necessarily nondestructive. In order to edit a raw image in PS it must first be converted into a second image (tiff/psd/jpeg). And then that second image must be saved in order to save the edits... it is only nondestructive if the edits are made using separate layers and those layers are saved (psd/tiff), or if a second image file is created during the save/export process (different name).
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that . I understood what you wrote and it was very helpful
 
Clouds said:
hi folks

just starting my PS/LR journey and looking at some youtube etc for this

just a quick question if I may regarding storing and import/export to help me understand storage

so your original photo file , we will call photo A is on your desktop

LR - you import photo A into LR and edit it , its now photo A edited, photo A original is still on desk top but photo A edited is saved in LR catalogue and if you wanted it in desktop you would need to export it to desktop where you would have orginal A and edited A

PH , you bring the photo into PS and can save any editing by save , or save as and rename file, the photo/s however are stored on the desktop not in PS

thanks
Click to expand...
With Lightroom it depends on how you import the image it is either:
  • Add: you import photo A into LR and edit it , it is still on desk top but the changes to photo A edited is saved in LR catalogue and if you wanted it in desktop you would need to export it to desktop where you would have orginal A and edited A
  • Copy: you import photo A into LR and edit it , its now photo A edited, photo A original is still on desk top but a copy of photo A is also saved elsewhere on your computer, and the changes to make photo A edited are saved in LR catalogue and if you wanted it in desktop you would need to export it to desktop where you would have orginal A and edited A
With Photoshop your understanding is correct.

If you really want to confuse things though, you can import the image to Lightroom, then export it to Photoshop to make further changes, then both are in your Lightroom catalogue...

It is good to get a handle on all of this before you get too far though, or at least make sure you do the same thing every time, so it is easier to correct once you have worked out a strategy. Also - please remember the golden rule: if you have an image imported to Lightroom, only move the file to a different folder from within Lightroom, or Lightroom will lose track of the image and the changes will not be applied.

Personally my workflow for Lightroom is: Import files from the SD card using Lightroom, copying to a location on my computer, using a YYYY/YYYY-MM-DD folder structure (Lightroom does this for me), then make any changes in Lightroom. I only export from Lightroom to upload/share an image, I do not keep copies of edited images, as it is easier to simply re-export from Lightroom. This way there is also on 1 copy of each image on my computer, unless the image has needed extra work in Photoshop.
 
Craikeybaby said:
Personally my workflow for Lightroom is: Import files from the SD card using Lightroom, copying to a location on my computer, using a YYYY/YYYY-MM-DD folder structure (Lightroom does this for me), then make any changes in Lightroom. I only export from Lightroom to upload/share an image, I do not keep copies of edited images, as it is easier to simply re-export from Lightroom. This way there is also on 1 copy of each image on my computer, unless the image has needed extra work in Photoshop.
Click to expand...
This - by far the easiest way to keep track of things and not use up too much storage.

And finally - if you really have fully completed everything, and are 110% certain you'll never want to re-edit, you can export it to the same folder location as a JPG, and delete the original. I do this for things like record shots and work-based photos that I know I'll never need to re-edit. It cuts down on storage.

If you also edit in something like silver efex, it comes back as a new file - often a high volume TIFF. I also generally re-save those as a JPG to save storage space. And if I ever need to re-edit, I can simply go back to the original colour version and 'edit in' again.
 
Craikeybaby said:
With Lightroom it depends on how you import the image it is either:
  • Add: you import photo A into LR and edit it , it is still on desk top but the changes to photo A edited is saved in LR catalogue and if you wanted it in desktop you would need to export it to desktop where you would have orginal A and edited A
  • Copy: you import photo A into LR and edit it , its now photo A edited, photo A original is still on desk top but a copy of photo A is also saved elsewhere on your computer, and the changes to make photo A edited are saved in LR catalogue and if you wanted it in desktop you would need to export it to desktop where you would have orginal A and edited A
With Photoshop your understanding is correct.

If you really want to confuse things though, you can import the image to Lightroom, then export it to Photoshop to make further changes, then both are in your Lightroom catalogue...

It is good to get a handle on all of this before you get too far though, or at least make sure you do the same thing every time, so it is easier to correct once you have worked out a strategy. Also - please remember the golden rule: if you have an image imported to Lightroom, only move the file to a different folder from within Lightroom, or Lightroom will lose track of the image and the changes will not be applied.

Personally my workflow for Lightroom is: Import files from the SD card using Lightroom, copying to a location on my computer, using a YYYY/YYYY-MM-DD folder structure (Lightroom does this for me), then make any changes in Lightroom. I only export from Lightroom to upload/share an image, I do not keep copies of edited images, as it is easier to simply re-export from Lightroom. This way there is also on 1 copy of each image on my computer, unless the image has needed extra work in Photoshop.
Click to expand...

that was going to be my next question. There was a workshop I saw where the photo was opened in LR and edited , then opened in PS and edited. I wondered how it was saved. Could you expand on this a bit more so I understand it better. Photo A

how do you set LR to name your photos , ie the date format you use
 
Clouds said:
that was going to be my next question. There was a workshop I saw where the photo was opened in LR and edited , then opened in PS and edited. I wondered how it was saved. Could you expand on this a bit more so I understand it better. Photo A

how do you set LR to name your photos , ie the date format you use
Click to expand...

If you send an image to PS then you leave the non destructive editing process and enter a destructive editing process. Therefore it is important that you do any tone or colour balance editing to your raw file before sending it to PS as this will be less effective on a pixel based image.

When you have finished editing in Photoshop and save it, it is saved as a .PSD or a .TIFF file which is saved in the same folder as your master file and also added to the LR library.

Now you will have two images. The master (or raw) file and the .psd or .tiff file you just saved in PS.
 
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ecoleman said:
If you send an image to PS then you leave the non destructive editing process and enter a destructive editing process.

When you have finished editing in Photoshop and save it, it is saved as a .PSD or a .TIFF file which is saved in the same folder as your master file and also added to the LR library.

Now you will have two images. The master (or raw) file and the .psd or .tiff file you just saved in PS. The file name remains the same but with -Edit.tif or -Edit.psd added to the end. As this is now a pixel based file it is important that you do any tone and colour balance editing to your raw file before sending it to PS.
Click to expand...

thank you
 
Clouds said:
how do you set LR to name your photos , ie the date format you use
Click to expand...

I don't actually rename the photos, it is the folder I import them into that is split up by date. I don't have Lightroom on this Mac, but there is a checkbox on the right hand panel of the import window, along the lines of "Organise into subfolders by..." and then choose the date and format. Then further down that right hand panel it will show you when the images would be imported to. For example, if the images are all being copied to the desktop (bad idea!) it would show the total number of images next to the desktop in the folder structure. But if you had 10 images from 3 separate dates, it would show 10 next to each of the folders it would create for those particular dates.

It is probably much easier to see with a screenshot, which I will try to remember to take next time I am on my other Mac.
 
I know someone who doesnt use LR as they lost all her edits . I take it this is the catalogue thats created

is losing them normal



also hearing from folk who have 80k plus photos on there computer /drive etc . As someone whos just starting out and trying to get the housekeeping part of the saving photos right as it must be a nightmare to find photos 50k down the line.

my current set up in my drive is
year
then sub folders of event, ie happy holiday , cat,

whats folks recommendation for hierarchy /housekeeping structure of folders please
 
Clouds said:
how do you set LR to name your photos , ie the date format you use
Click to expand...

When you import the images, there is a File Renaming section on the right. Here you can choose from a template or you can create your own custom template.

I have mine set to


Date (YYYYMMDD) Hour Minute Second

This gives me a file name like 20241118094445.cr3

If there are multiple images with the same file name (when I have shot multiple frames per second) then LR will automatically add -1 -2 -3 etc.
 
Clouds said:
I know someone who doesnt use LR as they lost all her edits . I take it this is the catalogue thats created

is losing them normal
Click to expand...

No losing them is not normal but like anything on a computer it can be lost. You need to make backups just like any other data.


Clouds said:
also hearing from folk who have 80k plus photos on there computer /drive etc . As someone whos just starting out and trying to get the housekeeping part of the saving photos right as it must be a nightmare to find photos 50k down the line.

my current set up in my drive is
year
then sub folders of event, ie happy holiday , cat,

whats folks recommendation for hierarchy /housekeeping structure of folders please
Click to expand...

Keywords, metadata, folder structure, collections, smart collections, face recognition etc all make finding images easy. That's what LR does best.

I don't bother with keywords as I have nowhere near that number of images but if I did then keywords would play an important role in my workflow.
 
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Clouds said:
.....

how do you set LR to name your photos , ie the date format you use
Click to expand...
In addition to that @ecoleman has written, there are a wide range of options here.

I have LR import into a folder structure (YYYY/YYYY-MM-DD) and then prefix the cameras filename by the camera model (as I have multiple Sony cameras) to ensure every filename is unique after import.
There are a bunch of other options, and you can also add keywords on import, and automatically add them to a collection.
It's worth spending a bit of time looking at what's possible, and figuring out what works best for you.
 
Clouds said:
I know someone who doesnt use LR as they lost all her edits . I take it this is the catalogue thats created

is losing them normal



also hearing from folk who have 80k plus photos on there computer /drive etc . As someone whos just starting out and trying to get the housekeeping part of the saving photos right as it must be a nightmare to find photos 50k down the line.

my current set up in my drive is
year
then sub folders of event, ie happy holiday , cat,

whats folks recommendation for hierarchy /housekeeping structure of folders please
Click to expand...
If you’re on windows I can’t offer any advice but I’m on a Mac and use apple photos which I find brilliant as an organiser?
 
As you can gather there are several different ways of setting up your file structure and how you use LR. The Lightroom Queen book referred to above has some good guidance on this subject. You need to get this right at the start as it is difficult to change down the line.

I use a similar file structure to Faldrax and I do use keywords to help find images. If you decide to use keywords you also need to set up a suitable structure.
 
Clouds said:
I know someone who doesnt use LR as they lost all her edits . I take it this is the catalogue thats created

is losing them normal
Click to expand...
The catalogue logs both where imported image files are located, and what edits have been made to them within LR. Always back up your catalogue - eg every time you close LR. An alternative way of saving edits is to choose sidecar files.

Your folder structure sounds good to me.
 
Clouds said:
I know someone who doesnt use LR as they lost all her edits . I take it this is the catalogue thats created

is losing them normal



also hearing from folk who have 80k plus photos on there computer /drive etc . As someone whos just starting out and trying to get the housekeeping part of the saving photos right as it must be a nightmare to find photos 50k down the line.

my current set up in my drive is
year
then sub folders of event, ie happy holiday , cat,

whats folks recommendation for hierarchy /housekeeping structure of folders please
Click to expand...
Losing the edits is not normal - they are stored in the catalogue file, and applied to the images, whose location is also stored in the catalogue file. As long as any viewing of files, or moving of files is done from within Lightroom the edits will be there. Opening the file outside of Lightroom will not include the edits, as they are applied by Lightroom, from the catalogue. Similarly, moving the file outside of Lightroom will break the link between the file and the edits.

It is definitely best to get a good structure in place before importing too many images, as you say sorting tens of thousands of images later can be a nightmare. Once images are in Lightroom though, it is easy to use it to tidy up images, for instance I have a "smart collection" in my catalogue which surfaces images that I have not done anything with after a year of them being imported. So I can easily review these, and either edit them, or delete them, on the basis that if they have not been touched in a year, I am unlikely to do anything with them (I also have backups anyway), and it means I can keep both my Lightroom catalogue and computer cleaner.

As mentioned above, I have YYYY/YYYY-MM-DD as my file structure, purely to keep files with the same name apart - if you are renaming on import you could have them all in the same folder if you want. I rarely use the resulting folders for anything. I use collections in Lightroom to group photos in a more human readable format. For instance, if you took your cat on holiday, the resulting images could be in both the "happy holiday" and "cat" collections, but images can only be one folder at a time.
 
Similar to the advice above I follow the YYYY/YYYY-MM-DD convention followed by a one or two word description. I also make extensive use of the synonym and hierarchy functions for keywording which has really sped up that part of the workflow.

GC
 
Clouds said:
I know someone who doesnt use LR as they lost all her edits . I take it this is the catalogue thats created

is losing them normal



also hearing from folk who have 80k plus photos on there computer /drive etc . As someone whos just starting out and trying to get the housekeeping part of the saving photos right as it must be a nightmare to find photos 50k down the line.

my current set up in my drive is
year
then sub folders of event, ie happy holiday , cat,

whats folks recommendation for hierarchy /housekeeping structure of folders please
Click to expand...
Keywording is crucial as soon as you start keeping loads of photos. And it's worth spending an evening getting all the keywording heirarchy that you can think of in place before you start doing anything. You can add stuff later - but the heirarchy really helps. And don't just think 'names / events / things' - also include themes or processes or genres - like 'orton effect' or 'pastellisation', 'posters', 'monochrome' etc.

I basically import all my photos to a 'To Sort' folder. Go through them, reject the dross - and move the ones I want to a 'To Edit' folder. Then edit them over time and when all of one day/event done (I colour them when edited - so I can select by attribute to find the ones I haven't done yet) - move them to a 'To Tag' folder.

Once tagged - I move them into a folder structure that makes sense to me ('Holidays', 'Events', 'People' and so on) - but this bit isn't essential if you use keywords well. It's just my mindset is still in the 'how to find a file in windows' mode.

Every year I say 'I must tag as I go along' - but get bogged down with other stuff - and so often spend the time just after Christmas / New Year tagging around 2/3,000 photos from the year before!
 
I create a folder for each subject ie I have one for Cairngorms National Park, one for NW Scotland etc etc
I'm just back from a few nights in the CNP so my images from that trip go into the CNP 24 folder.
When I have edited them in LR, the edited images go into a Sub Folder I have named FINISHED as TIFF files.
Then the magic begins when I take the FINISHED images into Photoshop.
Once I'm happy with the image, it is resized, sharpened etc and ready for posting in Flickr so I have another folder for these I name FLICKR 24
This way, it keeps everything in place and easy to find.
It works for me ;)
 
sk66 said:
Potentially much more complicated...

LR; if you use "copy" during import you will have a second image A in LR's file system, and the copy on the desktop will be redundant. If you use "move" then Image A will be moved into LR's file system; it will not be on the desktop anymore. And if you use "add" during the import Image A will not be located within LR's file system; it will remain on the desktop (linked).

When you edit an image in LR no changes are actually made to the file. The edits are saved as a set of instructions/steps in LR's database. What you are seeing in LR is the result that will be created if/when those edits are ever applied to the original file. In order to actually have a second image you must save/export (create) the resulting image; the original file is never changed. This is what makes LR a nondestructive raw editor and different from PS.

PS is not a raw editor; and it is not necessarily nondestructive. In order to edit a raw image in PS it must first be converted into a second image (tiff/psd/jpeg). And then that second image must be saved in order to save the edits... it is only nondestructive if the edits are made using separate layers and those layers are saved (psd/tiff), or if a second image file is created during the save/export process (different name).
Click to expand...
Well explained. I was wondering how to explain this in words, but you are far more eloquent than I ! :)
 
Using this combo is great for organising photos. I discovered what works the best for me is keeping the structure of the files in Lightroom catalogue and the computer the same and then for any amendments once preparing it for printing I create separate folder (these amendments will show up in Lightroom anyway).
In order to do it once you are in Lightroom Classic:
IMPORT-SELECT THE SOURCE- choosing photos-make sure at the top panel it is not copying but option ADD highlighted
Then you make your changes and go to Photoshop:
choose EDIT IN-EDIT IN PHOTOSHOP-EDIT A COPY WITH LIGHTROOM ADJUSTMENTS. It will open file in Photoshop.
Once you make your changes there the best guarantee the amended version of the file will magically appear in Lightroom is to save it as TIFF in the folder of your choice, it usually adds EDIT itself but check it and you can choose 1,2 etc yourself

One you’ve done it you come back to Lightroom and it is already there (as part of a stack) along with the number (1-st is usually the last edition)

Now exporting either for printing or digital presentation (to the same new forder, sub-folder called PRINT)

If you want a simple recipe on the entire Lightroom Classic-Photoshop process from RAW file to prepared file for print/digital presentation let me know.
 
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PHOTONA said:
Using this combo is great for organising photos. I discovered what works the best for me is keeping the structure of the files in Lightroom catalogue and the computer the same and then for any amendments once preparing it for printing I create separate folder (these amendments will show up in Lightroom anyway).
In order to do it once you are in Lightroom Classic:
IMPORT-SELECT THE SOURCE- choosing photos-make sure at the top panel it is not copying but option ADD highlighted
Then you make your changes and go to Photoshop:
choose EDIT IN-EDIT IN PHOTOSHOP-EDIT A COPY WITH LIGHTROOM ADJUSTMENTS. It will open file in Photoshop.
Once you make your changes there the best guarantee the amended version of the file will magically appear in Lightroom is to save it as TIFF in the folder of your choice, it usually adds EDIT itself but check it and you can choose 1,2 etc yourself

One you’ve done it you come back to Lightroom and it is already there (as part of a stack) along with the number (1-st is usually the last edition)

Now exporting either for printing or digital presentation (to the same new forder, sub-folder called PRINT)

If you want a simple recipe on the entire Lightroom Classic-Photoshop process from RAW file to prepared file for print/digital presentation let me know.
Click to expand...
thanks so much
 
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