Looking to upgrade from my Canon 5dmk3 to either 5DMK4 or R5.

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mrk123

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But I don't want to go mirrorless as my lenses are built up around my DSLR fit.

I plan to shoot mainly photo, do I really need the R5? I am not overly happy with the quality in my 5DMK3, lots of pixelation, even with Canon L lenses. Will the R5 really be that much better than the 5DMK4 in terms of photo quality... Locking focus in video is not so important to me.

I have been shooting for 15+ years, and always just got by with what I could, but really feel I need a body that can give me a bit more now. I have paid work now and I really want to be delivering the best I can.
 
What exactly do you mean by lack of quality? Is this high ISO? To know which camera is best suited please describe what you need to accomplish in your paid work.
 
I moved up from a 6Dmk1 to a 5DMk4 and then to an R5

I can't comment on the 5D3 or why you're getting "pixelation" but I saw a significant quality improvement from the 6D to 5D in terms of dynamic range and again when moving to the R5. Of course there is also the megapixel boost which is always nice.

If I were you and I had the money, I'd get the R5. You can use your DSLR lenses on the R5 with the EF-RF adapter with no reduction in performance, then if you choose you can upgrade your lenses as and when you need to.
 
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Mintchocs said:
What exactly do you mean by lack of quality? Is this high ISO? To know which camera is best suited please describe what you need to accomplish in your paid work.
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I think at iso 100/200, exposure brackets on tripod as well as some flash pops, the flash pops are ok, but just not happy with the depth of quality.

ecoleman said:
I moved up from a 6Dmk1 to a 5DMk4 and then to an R5

I can't comment on the 5D3 or why you're getting "pixelation" but I saw a significant quality improvement from the 6D to 5D in terms of dynamic range and again when moving to the R5. Of course there is also the megapixel boost which is always nice.

If I were you and I had the money, I'd get the R5. You can use your DSLR lenses on the R5 with the EF-RF adapter with no reduction in performance, then if you choose you can upgrade your lenses as and when you need to.
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Good shout on the ef-rf adapter, one concern of mine was the 300 or so shots on a full charge with mirrorless, I guess you just need 3 or 4 batteris at all times.
 
mrk123 said:
I think at iso 100/200, exposure brackets on tripod as well as some flash pops, the flash pops are ok, but just not happy with the depth of quality.



Good shout on the ef-rf adapter, one concern of mine was the 300 or so shots on a full charge with mirrorless, I guess you just need 3 or 4 batteris at all times.
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It may say 320 shots per battery cycle but I've seen upwards of 500 on a single charge using my R5.
 
Maybe it was a slighty higher iso than i thought, I can't upload pics, took a screen grab of LR but I have no export on current LR, so can't downsize.. it's complicated.

I will try get some on here soon.
 
mrk123 said:
I not happy with the depth of quality.


Good shout on the ef-rf adapter, one concern of mine was the 300 or so shots on a full charge with mirrorless, I guess you just need 3 or 4 batteris at all times.
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I'm not sure what depth of quality means. The 5D3 is still used by many pro photographers around the world, there should be nothing wrong with the image quality.

Mirrorless cameras can get way more shots than advertised. My Fuji X-T4 is advertised as only getting 300-odd shots from a battery but I can easily get 600
 
mrk123 said:
I think at iso 100/200, exposure brackets on tripod as well as some flash pops, the flash pops are ok, but just not happy with the depth of quality.



Good shout on the ef-rf adapter, one concern of mine was the 300 or so shots on a full charge with mirrorless, I guess you just need 3 or 4 batteris at all times.
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Depends how you shoot - I spend a lot of time waiting & watching - with the EVF active - I'd hazard I get 300-350 shots doing that.

When landscaping I've yet to empty a battery so I can't say but that day did have about 300 shots taken.
 
I would try to problem solve your 5D3 before shelling out a load of money you might not need. The image quality from the 5D3 is excellent, even by today's standards. The only things the 5D4 and R5 will offer in image quality is better dynamic range and lower noise when light becomes poor but it's not going to be night and day difference. There is of course the difference in megapixels but unless you plan on cropping heavily or printing huge then you'll not see a difference.

It'll be interesting to see your images when you manage to post them (y)
 
snerkler said:
I would try to problem solve your 5D3 before shelling out a load of money you might not need. The image quality from the 5D3 is excellent, even by today's standards. The only things the 5D4 and R5 will offer in image quality is better dynamic range and lower noise when light becomes poor but it's not going to be night and day difference. There is of course the difference in megapixels but unless you plan on cropping heavily or printing huge then you'll not see a difference.
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Hmm, wondr if I am mixing up noise with pixelation, my bad!

It might be noise I was referring to!

Excuse the pix, it's just a small screen grab of a CR2 in Lightroom, but here in this black caninet you can see 'noise'... It was an ambient shot over 6 brackets, this was in the middle, on a carbon tripod with a 16-35f4 at maybe 24mm and f9. Maybe around 1/100th second.Screen Shot 2023-03-14 at 19.39.33.png
 
Excuse the 220kb export but another thing is the focus... the very furthest objects in that shelf at the back of th room are not sharp, see zoomed in screen grab.... Was at F9 also.. Would I need to go much higher than this to get that? F16? Or would that start to have a reverse effect? You can also see what I mean by noise... Sure it may be pixel peeping but this is not high enough quality for me.

Canon 5dmk4, Canon 16-35f4 L, Rollei carbon tripod..

FINK5.jpg

Screen Shot 2023-03-14 at 19.48.41.png
This scren grab is of one of the CR2 files, so not blended in PS, as some people may have thought it was due to the layers not being aligned, but it's just a CR2 file.
 
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mrk123 said:
Hmm, wondr if I am mixing up noise with pixelation, my bad!

It might be noise I was referring to!

Excuse the pix, it's just a small screen grab of a CR2 in Lightroom, but here in this black caninet you can see 'noise'... It was an ambient shot over 6 brackets, this was in the middle, on a carbon tripod with a 16-35f4 at maybe 24mm and f9. Maybe around 1/100th second.View attachment 383986
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What was the ISO, and is this a combined photo of the 6 brackets or a single shot?
 
mrk123 said:
Excuse the 220kb export but another thing is the focus... the very furthest objects in that shelf at the back of th room are not sharp, see zoomed in screen grab.... Was at F9 also.. Would I need to go much higher than this to get that? F16? Or would that start to have a reverse effect? You can also see what I mean by noise... Sure it may be pixel peeping but this is not high enough quality for me.

Canon 5dmk4, Canon 16-35f4 L, Rollei carbon tripod..

View attachment 383987

View attachment 383988
This scren grab is of one of the CR2 files, so not blended in PS, as some people may have thought it was due to the layers not being aligned, but it's just a CR2 file.
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Crikey you’re not asking for much are you ;) This must be at least a 400% crop, nothing’s going to look good at that magnification.
 
snerkler said:
And the ISO? Also why are you bracketing?
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I think iso 200, very rarely with interiors do I use 320 or above, as we have stated noise can creep in with my oldr body..
I am bracketing (usuaully 6 shots, 3 up and 3 down from base shot) so I get information in the shadows, mids and highlights, To get the shots on site maybe 20 mins, to edit it all together anywhere between 30 mins to 1 hour.
 
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mrk123 said:
I think iso 200, very rarely with interiors do I use 320 or above, as we have stated noise can creep in with my oldr body..
I am bracketing so I get information in the shadows, mids and highlights, as well as that I go around and flash pop single shots on certain areas to make sure I have the information, and then I will do some brackets of ;funky lighting, lik that purple one, and layer mask it all in, it's a pretty common practice in interior design.. To get the shots on site maybe 20 mins, to edit it all together anywhere between 30 mins to 1 hour.
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So you’re at ISO 200, f9 and 1/100 with ambient light, this would suggest that the light was pretty decent therefore I wouldn’t expect any obvious noise so something’s not right imo.

Is that image of the black cabinets processed, and/or is it a crop?
 
Are you setting the camera to manual and then doing the bracketing ? There's some circumstances where the canon will adjust the iso to achieve the bracketing- that may be one of the issues...

As above - f9 1/100 iso 200 seems like a lot of ambient light - is this image exposed correctly or have you set the camera to this manually and raised the shadows ? - that would introduce a load of noise in the shadows with a big lift
 
+1 for @snerkler’s feedback work on camera technique before spending more. 5DM3 is a great camera. 5DM4 and R5 bring great new capabilities but probably won’t fix your core problem. I’ve had all three models and still have 5DM4 and R5. RF to EF adapter for R5 means you don’t need new lenses. I still haven’t bought any RF lens. Battery life is fine for R5.
 
snerkler said:
Crikey you’re not asking for much are you ;) This must be at least a 400% crop, nothing’s going to look good at that magnification.
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:plus1: here too, that's a huge crop, you will start to see it fall apart, no matter how good the original capture may be when you start getting in close.

I have a 5Div myself, I love it but I have underexposed with it a few times and images can then be grainy, especially in shadow or darker areas. A good exposure goes a long way,
 
Its easy to look up depth of field calculators and to work out what f-stop is required to give what you want.

I also think it is expecting too much for a sharp section of an image that has been very heavily cropped, especially for something that is effectively background.

Trade in the Canon kit and get a Hasselblad H6D
 
Just to support previous comments - you're expecting too much in terms of detail by cropping to such a degree.

The only way you'll get the kind of detail you're thinking of would either be to multi-stitch images (not easy for a subject matter like you've posted) or a camera with somewhere around a 100mp sensor like a Hasselblad X2D 100C or something similar. Canon for a while did the 5DS and 5DSR that had a 50mp sensor, but these are now discontinued, and although you might see an improvement in this type of image with one, to get what you're really aspiring to, you'll likely need to pump some serious money into kit.

Why do you actually NEED such detail of a small pot far away? Do your customers or clients zoom in to that degree to see said pot? Or are you looking at things with a photographers eye that says 'I want everything sharp and clear with no noise'. What you see - and what your clients see can be two very different things.
 
snerkler said:
So you’re at ISO 200, f9 and 1/100 with ambient light, this would suggest that the light was pretty decent therefore I wouldn’t expect any obvious noise so something’s not right imo.

Is that image of the black cabinets processed, and/or is it a crop?
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Well, it may have been one of the brackets but f9 and either a stop up or down, not sure how the camera brackets, with f stop, shutter or iso. But the sample of the rear cabinet was a CR2 file in LR...

toohuge said:
Are you setting the camera to manual and then doing the bracketing ? There's some circumstances where the canon will adjust the iso to achieve the bracketing- that may be one of the issues...

As above - f9 1/100 iso 200 seems like a lot of ambient light - is this image exposed correctly or have you set the camera to this manually and raised the shadows ? - that would introduce a load of noise in the shadows with a big lift
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TBH when I am editing and using bracketed shots, it's hard to tell in hindsight without going in the maze what was what, but all were RAW / CR2 files, and about 3 or 4 taken into PS from LR... There may have been some shadlow lifting in LR.

cymruchris said:
Just to support previous comments - you're expecting too much in terms of detail by cropping to such a degree.

The only way you'll get the kind of detail you're thinking of would either be to multi-stitch images (not easy for a subject matter like you've posted) or a camera with somewhere around a 100mp sensor like a Hasselblad X2D 100C or something similar. Canon for a while did the 5DS and 5DSR that had a 50mp sensor, but these are now discontinued, and although you might see an improvement in this type of image with one, to get what you're really aspiring to, you'll likely need to pump some serious money into kit.

Why do you actually NEED such detail of a small pot far away? Do your customers or clients zoom in to that degree to see said pot? Or are you looking at things with a photographers eye that says 'I want everything sharp and clear with no noise'. What you see - and what your clients see can be two very different things.
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I would love a Hassleblad but yeas £££.. I looked at the 5DSR actually, and considered it, but wasn;t sure it was ideal in low light for gigs and events etc, something I also shoot, there was something about it anyway were I knew it would not do. But yes it's probably just me pixel peeping!

Hmmm...

Tbh I have shot with same lens and body at other gigs and not had issue as much, maybe it was just something I did on that day...

I will consider all the info, thanks for the advice everyone.
 
cymruchris said:
Just to support previous comments - you're expecting too much in terms of detail by cropping to such a degree.

The only way you'll get the kind of detail you're thinking of would either be to multi-stitch images (not easy for a subject matter like you've posted) or a camera with somewhere around a 100mp sensor like a Hasselblad X2D 100C or something similar. Canon for a while did the 5DS and 5DSR that had a 50mp sensor, but these are now discontinued, and although you might see an improvement in this type of image with one, to get what you're really aspiring to, you'll likely need to pump some serious money into kit.

Why do you actually NEED such detail of a small pot far away? Do your customers or clients zoom in to that degree to see said pot? Or are you looking at things with a photographers eye that says 'I want everything sharp and clear with no noise'. What you see - and what your clients see can be two very different things.
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I’m not even sure 100mp would crop that heavy and still look good tbh.
mrk123 said:
Well, it may have been one of the brackets but f9 and either a stop up or down, not sure how the camera brackets, with f stop, shutter or iso. But the sample of the rear cabinet was a CR2 file in LR...



TBH when I am editing and using bracketed shots, it's hard to tell in hindsight without going in the maze what was what, but all were RAW / CR2 files, and about 3 or 4 taken into PS from LR... There may have been some shadlow lifting in LR.



I would love a Hassleblad but yeas £££.. I looked at the 5DSR actually, and considered it, but wasn;t sure it was ideal in low light for gigs and events etc, something I also shoot, there was something about it anyway were I knew it would not do. But yes it's probably just me pixel peeping!

Hmmm...

Tbh I have shot with same lens and body at other gigs and not had issue as much, maybe it was just something I did on that day...

I will consider all the info, thanks for the advice everyone.
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I’d look into how you process images and how you’re shooting tbh, it sounds like you don’t fully understand what your camera is doing and what settings your shots are therefore you’ll likely just get the same issue with whatever you use (y)

As for the detail in the crop that’s just going beyond the realms of physics. With a good camera and lens, combined with good light and technique you can crop to the pixel level (1:1) and still get ‘reasonable’ quality, but when you go past that it quickly goes to pixelated mush. The more mp your camera has the more you can crop, but most lenses can’t resolve all the detail of the high mp cameras anyway. As mentioned above, even if you used a 100mp Hasselblad I think that crop’s still to much so it would still look pretty awful. Of course, having never owned a 100mp Hasselblad I can’t say that with 100% certainty ;)
 
snerkler said:
I’m not even sure 100mp would crop that heavy and still look good tbh.

I’d look into how you process images and how you’re shooting tbh, it sounds like you don’t fully understand what your camera is doing and what settings your shots are therefore you’ll likely just get the same issue with whatever you use (y)

As for the detail in the crop that’s just going beyond the realms of physics. With a good camera and lens, combined with good light and technique you can crop to the pixel level (1:1) and still get ‘reasonable’ quality, but when you go past that it quickly goes to pixelated mush. The more mp your camera has the more you can crop, but most lenses can’t resolve all the detail of the high mp cameras anyway. As mentioned above, even if you used a 100mp Hasselblad I think that crop’s still to much so it would still look pretty awful. Of course, having never owned a 100mp Hasselblad I can’t say that with 100% certainty ;)
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It's fine, I am just going to wait for the 500mp camera, I will buy the first one that comes out.

And I am pretty sure I know what the camea is doing. I am shooting raw images, and bracketing shots to use in LR then PS aware at the time of the shots I am using. all shot on tripod.
 
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mrk123 said:
It's fine, I am just going to wait for the 500mp camera, I will buy the first one that comes out.

And I am pretty sure I know what the camea is doing. I am shooting raw images, and bracketing shots to use in LR then PS aware at the time of the shots I am using. all shot on tripod.
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Ahh OK sorry it's just that you were vague about your settings etc (y)
 
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L320Rio said:
So what are you actually changing when you bracket the shots?
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I am just going into the rear menu (Q) and setting the bracketing 2 stops apart. I assume the camera computer us using shutter speed to create the bracketed images.

It may have been camera shake, but like others have said expected any kind of readability or focus on this extreme crop is unlikley.
 
mrk123 said:
I am just going into the rear menu (Q) and setting the bracketing 2 stops apart. I assume the camera computer us using shutter speed to create the bracketed images.

It may have been camera shake, but like others have said expected any kind of readability or focus on this extreme crop is unlikley.
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What mode do you shoot in?
 
mrk123 said:
I am just going into the rear menu (Q) and setting the bracketing 2 stops apart. I assume the camera computer us using shutter speed to create the bracketed images.

It may have been camera shake, but like others have said expected any kind of readability or focus on this extreme crop is unlikley.
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This is why you need to know what your camera is doing, whilst most often it will change shutter speed it doesn’t always and can change ISO depending on what settings you’re using.
 
andrewc said:
What mode do you shoot in?
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Always manual. Hence me mentioning f9, iso 200, shutter 125th ish.

snerkler said:
This is why you need to know what your camera is doing, whilst most often it will change shutter speed it doesn’t always and can change ISO depending on what settings you’re using.
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Goof shout, I will look this up now, have a shoot in 3 hours on another property so will be good to know.
TBH when shooting on manual, let's say a gig, with my 70-200f2.8 absolutely sharp as a whistle with low noise even at iso 500.

Will see what happens today, may have been a fly on my lens.
 
mrk123 said:
Always manual. Hence me mentioning f9, iso 200, shutter 125th ish.



Goof shout, I will look this up now, have a shoot in 3 hours on another property so will be good to know.
TBH when shooting on manual, let's say a gig, with my 70-200f2.8 absolutely sharp as a whistle with low noise even at iso 500.

Will see what happens today, may have been a fly on my lens.
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I hope you manage to figure it out. I've not managed to find out how the 5D3 brackets, but assuming you didn't have it set to manual mode but with auto ISO I'd be surprised if it changes ISO rather than shutter speed but you never know.

I did notice that the 5D3 brackets odd numbers (1,3,5,7) and not 6 though which makes more sense as you have the 'normal' exposure and then an equal number above and below. I saw that it has in camera HDR too, I'd assume it's jpeg only though.
 
mrk123 said:
Always manual. Hence me mentioning f9, iso 200, shutter 125th ish.



Goof shout, I will look this up now, have a shoot in 3 hours on another property so will be good to know.
TBH when shooting on manual, let's say a gig, with my 70-200f2.8 absolutely sharp as a whistle with low noise even at iso 500.

Will see what happens today, may have been a fly on my lens.
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If you still have problems - could you share the raw files with us so we can have a look and figure out what's what?
 
toohuge said:
If you still have problems - could you share the raw files with us so we can have a look and figure out what's what?
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Thanks will do.. will see how i get o today!
I will share files laster.
 
Can you not just set it up, with the same settings, and then look at the EXIF data on the 3 images to see what it is changing?
 
Craikeybaby said:
Can you not just set it up, with the same settings, and then look at the EXIF data on the 3 images to see what it is changing?
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Yep this would be the obvious thing to do, but just watching the values on the screen while shooting will tell you (y)
 
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