location photography lighting

Lena

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Hi, I am very new here and beginner in photography world so I have lots and lots of questions but will start with few...
I will be doing models location shootings like in hotel rooms where space is limited, what lightening I should buy? I know it depends on many aspects like what clothes models wear and natural light etc, but what would you take with you if you been offered to go on job like that? also where is the best place to buy equipment? I hope my question make sense. Thanks :naughty:
 
Firstly welcome to TP.

Secondly, it's not what we use but how that differs with the subject and the image we want to create.

So, to the crux: What's your budget, are you planning to have access to mains power (bear in mind you'll then probably be concerned about PAT testing and insurance) or are you planning a battery powered solution?

If you really are inexperienced, I'd recommend proper lighting with modelling lights.

What do you think?
 
Thanks for reply so fast, first of all it won't be like proper business more like a hobby ( do I need insurance for that?) and if I shoot in hotel room so there is access to mains power.
I am willing to spend descent money for good equipment.
Any good brands you can recommend? And what exactly I will need, so far I know about soft box lightening, but again what size if I will be shooting full length and portraits. Also models might be nude, I don't know if there is difference shooting nude model or with clothes. :)
 
Hi Lena,

Before purchasing any lights I would recommend that unless you are well acquainted with lighting, that you attend a simple lighting course or two to become acquainted with all the paraphernalia associated with it, before looking at hiring models or locations.
 
Before purchasing any lights I would recommend that unless you are well acquainted with lighting, that you attend a simple lighting course or two to become acquainted with all the paraphernalia associated with it, before looking at hiring models or locations.

As much as I hate agreeing with him :D I do have to agree here

I love the enthusiasm of what you're wanting to achieve but you're asking too much of a simple forum reply series to be able to answer properly, or clearly enough

Buy a book or two, watch a load of online tutorials, and yes go on a day course of at least an introductory nature, otherwise two things are likely to happen

1 - you'll waste a load of money on gear you don't need or aren't getting the best out of

2 - your results won't be anything like you had in mind and it could kill your enthusiasm and result in some used gear for sale within months (it happens a lot)

HTH :)

Dave
 
Any suggestion in course? I did take few courses, last one was model,fashion studio lightening but there was not much about the actual light but more like how to direct the model, and I was trying to find the right course but they all are portrait and lightening and I am worried if I go for something like that again it will be more of how to take a portrait rather that about the light what is what and how to work with it.
 
Brands:- You can end up paying a lot if you are looking at good quality kit (Profoto, Bowens, Elinchrom), but you will also find that you can achieve just as good results with the likes of Lencarta who are much cheaper (I have no connection with any of these firms by the way) and who advertise on here and their guru, Garry Edwards, will no doubt offer some of the best advice in the business regards starting out.

The size of the space you have to operate in will be a significant factor. How tall is the room, bearing own mind that the lighting will need to be generally above head height, unless the subject is sitting or lying down. Generally in a smallish room as opposed to a large studio, you might even be able to get away with using a speedlight or two suitably modified with softbox or brollies, but you will soon run into issues with recycling times and batteries.

Of course distance from the background, distance from the camera etc are all factors to consider too.

Insurance...good idea if you have wiring all over the floor etc, but you need to risk assess. Are you looking to insure the kit, the model or the venue or all three? Might be overkill until you are doing it on a regular basis, but that depends on a lot of other factors including how risk adverse you are?

You say you are a beginner, if you have model(s), then you need to be reasonably competent otherwise they will soon become bored or cold or both and that will show in the shots.
 
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Any suggestion in course?

Your profile says you're from London, if you still live there there will be LOADS of peeps who can help with the technical aspects rather than just how to position a hand :)

Find a few local camera clubs as they will usually either have someone who knows their stuff or know of someone who does to guide you where to get the help you're after

Dave
 
Thanks guys, I will try to find good course first and then will come back with lots of questions :) But if you do know a good place to learn I would appreciate it. x
 
http://calumetacademy.co.uk/mixed-light-workshop-masterclass-london-11-february-2016

There are cheaper ones too, whilst you might also pick up a few tips at the Photography Show seminars at the NEC in March, but they are usually busy and the best speakers get booked up in advance. Also try your local adult education provider. In London they often have day courses on such subjects and usually have smaller numbers of attendees, so asking questions is easier.
 
This is a big subject...
The first difficulty will be the learning process, and although I agree (in principle) with going on a course, you may struggle to find a good one - in many cases, courses are run by people who turn to training others because they aren't capable of hacking it themselves as photographers, so they make money by imparting "knowledge" that they would like to have themselves.

Talks at the Photography Show... Often just "celebrity" photographers who are famous for being famous - good motivational speakers but the amount of practical information they pass on is very limited.

Personally, I think you'll do better by working your way through the various tutorials in our Learning Centre, which will cost you nothing but your time, and by practicing at home until you've nailed it.

Equipment - depends enormously on what you want to achieve, You mention that the models may be nude, which to me raises the question of the purpose of the shots. If they are intended to be artistic nude shots then this will involve much more in the way of care, space and equipment than if they are "glamour" shots, where the purpose is just to show the content. I don't know what you want to achieve here but, to give a fairly extreme example, if you wanted to produce porno shots, or shots for an "Escort Agency" then all you would need would be 2 hotshoe flashguns - one fitted with an umbrella and pointing towards the subject and the other one bounced off the ceiling. The lighting would be basic, flat and totally devoid of any artistic content, but would suit the purpose very well.
 
This is a big subject...
The first difficulty will be the learning process, and although I agree (in principle) with going on a course, you may struggle to find a good one - in many cases, courses are run by people who turn to training others because they aren't capable of hacking it themselves as photographers, so they make money by imparting "knowledge" that they would like to have themselves.

Talks at the Photography Show... Often just "celebrity" photographers who are famous for being famous - good motivational speakers but the amount of practical information they pass on is very limited.

Personally, I think you'll do better by working your way through the various tutorials in our Learning Centre, which will cost you nothing but your time, and by practicing at home until you've nailed it.

Equipment - depends enormously on what you want to achieve, You mention that the models may be nude, which to me raises the question of the purpose of the shots. If they are intended to be artistic nude shots then this will involve much more in the way of care, space and equipment than if they are "glamour" shots, where the purpose is just to show the content. I don't know what you want to achieve here but, to give a fairly extreme example, if you wanted to produce porno shots, or shots for an "Escort Agency" then all you would need would be 2 hotshoe flashguns - one fitted with an umbrella and pointing towards the subject and the other one bounced off the ceiling. The lighting would be basic, flat and totally devoid of any artistic content, but would suit the purpose very well.
 
Some good advice here Lena. This is very much in at the deep end kind of work, or it certainly could be. To get up to speed, you're going to have to learn fast. As well as lots of practise at home, I have to agree that some training would be useful, so if not an organised course then maybe you could attend/assist another photographer, or get someone to sit in on one of your shoots? That kind of one-to-one working can be more tailored.

On the equipment front, studio flash heads for sure, and you won't go far wrong with any of the brands mentioned - at the end of the day, they all do the same things in a similar way. But what exactly, in terms of how many head and which modifiers, you won't really know that until you've got going. Start with the basics, like one or two heads and a softbox and you'll not go far wrong. Take it one step at a time.

Leave this for later, but the only thing I would add is to say that speedlites are extremely useful for location work, simply because they're so small and you can fit them in small corners or hide them behind furnishings. Easy to sync them up with studio heads.
 
A few places you might find helpful information, in no particular order:

1. Try searching on YouTube for "Jared Platt Profoto" he has about half a dozen tutorials on there. He is very good at explaining the reason why he lights as he does, he does a lot of technical explaining, do not be put off by that, value it! It does not matter if it is indoors or out, listen to why he is putting lights here or there. The problem with most teaching is the lack of explained reasoning. I think the above posters are correct, most trainers do not have the level of sophisticated understanding.

2) Look at old books (2nd hand shops/internet) on how to portrait light from the 1940s/50s

3) Look at the workshops run by the Royal Photographic Society, most are in Bath which is an easy train ride / short walk to their headquarters. You do not need to be a member

4) For posing and lighting guides try
Jerry Ghionis
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2nNxaBA6ss

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmi9TPQ57Mo


5) Sue Bryce is a very good poser of people, so anything by her. Example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWvQUhzdtFA

6) Event Space training by B and H Photo, loads of hour long excellent videos on every aspect of business and photography you can name
https://www.youtube.com/user/BHPhotoVideoProAudio/videos

7) Modern books on Cinematography and Lighting (can order them on loan through your local library) as a good film maker knows more about lighting a space as well as the human in it, than most average photographers will ever know. Remember that lighting the space the person is in can totally change how you view the whole image and indeed what your perception of the model is. This is never mentioned by most trainers. It is covered in some of Jared Platts videos, another reason why I think he is good at what he does.

8) Watch films/movies for their lighting effects. It can be helpful if you find the story itself boring! There are a load of out of copyright films on YouTube, the term "full movie" is helpful when searching or use the name of an historic film star. The black and white films can be particularly interesting as you only have to deal with looking at the light and shadows, not the impact of additional colour. (note, do not click on any links to off site videos, stay in YouTube itself.)

9) Try the Strobist website, you may be able to do what you want to do with small flashguns, at least as an initial experiment.
http://strobist.blogspot.co.uk/2006/03/lighting-101-start-here.html

10) Consider buying Yongnuo brand flashguns from Amazon - they are cheap but everyone finds them very high quality, forums are stacked out with praise for them.

11) Places such as Stage Electrics are very economic for buying coloured lighting gels etc from and they will deliver all around the country for a minimal charge.
http://www.stage-electrics.co.uk/shop/sales/lighting

12) Look at any Hollywood stills of stars (google images is your friend) either as portraits or as scenes from film sets. Anything between say the 1930's to 1970's is usually good, the stills photography quality declined pretty fast after that.

13) Corrective posing if the person has flaws - Jeff Smith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53egEtufcjg

14) Don't spent big money on equipment until you really know what you are doing, as it can soon add up to thousands. Consider hiring some light units from Calumet or other places you can find on the web or at the Photography Show stands. I have heard from and ex member of staff of a national chain that some suppliers who are not very nice will spot you are a beginner and use that to sell you every bit of equipment they can to boost their commission and sales, so be aware of this, even if it is rare. Someone I met still had studio equipment 1 year after purchase which they had never required or needed to take out of the boxes.


Hope all this is of some help. I wish I had known about some of the above resources when I started trying to find out more about lighting. I have been looking more in depth at lighting for my own benefit over the last couple of years. My sources and resources have become quite broad -- mostly because the more I looked at courses and modern photography books, the more I realised that most modern teachers really do not look for true sophistication in lighting, they just repeat whatever basic stuff they learned at the last course they attended themselves. I don't think its their fault, complex skilled lighting is just not pushed / awareness is not much raised other than for high end product photography. I personally have never attended a single course or demo where the teacher has said, 'this is the best lighting to use if the model has sticking out ears/poor skin/uneven facial features/fat arms ' and yet all of these can be helped by lighting. Most trainers just do not cover such important details and do not, I sadly conclude, have the slightest idea of the answers anyway. Do not be blinded by glossy presentations.

Another problem with most courses, books or videos is they only target very very limited ranges of models. If you want to learn to photograph flawless beautiful women aged 16-25 you will find plentiful examples as they are the easy shoot. In addition they attract male photographers to courses very readily.

If you want to learn to photograph people with flaws and to learn how to work around such issues by corrective posing or lighting, or to light and photograph older women, or men of any age at all you will find the learning well extremely dry, as nearly all courses still cater for photographers who are men (note how often the women models are referred to as 'girls') - the women attendees often being seen as mere financial add ons to the 'real' male students
 
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:agree: That's a very comprehensive and helpful answer.
 
Thank you so much guys! I didn't expect so much help! You are awesome! :banana:
I know that best way to learn is practise, but I can't practise if I don't have equipment, so thats why I need to buy basic lightening and start try it out and of course learning online and watching tutorials etc. THANKS!!!!
 
Thank you so much guys! I didn't expect so much help! You are awesome! :banana:
I know that best way to learn is practise, but I can't practise if I don't have equipment, so thats why I need to buy basic lightening and start try it out and of course learning online and watching tutorials etc. THANKS!!!!
OK - but we need more information before we are able to give you any useful advice on what to buy.

So, do you need to produce well-crafted lighting to show beauty and form, or will your shots just be about content, as per my earlier post? If it's the former, then you need studio lighting, which can easily do both. If it's the latter, then a couple of hotshoe flash guns will do.
 
Lena,

You could hire as said, or ask around and borrow some kit.

My local photo club has a full set of lights that come out two or three times a year and are available FoC or for a nominal fee to members. Go ask!

Garry Edwards was even offering the Lencarta studio for free in January, you just have to keep your eyes peeled.

(Regards speakers, the only really outstanding one recently I have been to, was Joe McNally, at a free evening laid on by Amateur Photographer at their HQ in London. He plucked good bad and ugly people as well as the odd stunning one from the audience and explained how to light them to best effect, ranging from a twenty something punky woman through to three somewhat jaded 50/60 year old guys and the results were outstanding. Undoubtedly he was the best speaker I have heard on the subject and would agree that quite a few of the other well known names on the circuit regurgitate the same old stuff without helping you. Trouble is he is from the US and so his appearances here are few and far between, unless someone like Nikon are sponsoring him).
 
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I will be doing models location shootings like in hotel rooms where space is limited


not related to you lighting question (which is superbly answered above) I'd keep out of hotel rooms for this. Why not hire a studio (there are some very good ones around. Reduces the need to buy lighting too. Your model(s) may well be able to suggest a few
 
Thank you so much guys! I didn't expect so much help! You are awesome! :banana:
I know that best way to learn is practise, but I can't practise if I don't have equipment, so thats why I need to buy basic lightening and start try it out and of course learning online and watching tutorials etc. THANKS!!!!

Agree. You need to get started, so I suggest a minimum risk investment in a starter kit. Most studio heads from all brands use a fitting for light modifiers known as Bowens or S-fit, or quite a few use Elinchrom or EL. With either of these, there's a very wide choice available - dozens of softboxes, snoots, beauty dishes etc - and they will fit the heads you may want to add or upgrade to later. Ditto the stands have a universal spigot fitting.

Suggest you phone Garry E and talk it through. He will sell you Lencarta of course, but that's as good a place as any to start and as I say, using S-fit mounts you're not locked into any one brand. Actually, a lot of the Lencarta modifiers have interchangeable mounts so you could easily swap those to Elinchrom or maybe Profoto if you wanted to later.

Then get going. You'll soon find that the key to success has much more to do with lighting, how light works and how you manage it, than it does with hardware. Even more important is your rapport with the model. Here are some fundamentals I wish someone had told me all those years ago :)

- The larger the light source, the softer the shadows. Size is relative to distance, ie a softbox used closer becomes softer, further away it becomes harder.
- Brightness falls off rapidly with distance, broadly following the inverse square law that says if you double the distance, brightness is reduced to one quarter - a drop of two stops.
- Light bounces/reflects off a surface at the same angle it strikes, like a snooker ball off the cushion.
- In all lighting situations, there is 'spill' - light reflected off the subject, the surroundings and environment that bounces around and returns to influence the image, usually softening shadows, sometimes adding a colour cast. It needs to be considered, controlled, or worked around.

All these things will be at the heart of every image.
 
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not related to you lighting question (which is superbly answered above) I'd keep out of hotel rooms for this. Why not hire a studio (there are some very good ones around. Reduces the need to buy lighting too. Your model(s) may well be able to suggest a few

Absolutely this, x100. Start in a controlled environment where you've got lots of space and studio lights. Get signed up to Purpleport to find studios & models - a basic account is free, and if you use that link to sign up then I'll get a month free :)

Many studios run courses or can offer 1-1 tuition - the quality of which may vary but it sounds as though you need the basics and most studio owners should be able to do that.

Speedlites can be easier to manage in a small space - like a hotel room - but the learning curve is even steeper.
 
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Where in London are you Lena ?

I'm based in Twickenham and I have a lot of Lencarta kit here that you're welcome to play with.

Depending on dates I'd be happy to give you a couple of hours of tuition FOC if that helps..?


Thanks for your kind offer! I am in Enfield but I can definitely come to Twickenham :) Just tell me the date and Ill be there :)
 
Thanks for your kind offer! I am in Enfield but I can definitely come to Twickenham :) Just tell me the date and Ill be there :)

Brilliant :thumbs:
 
Where in London are you Lena ?

I'm based in Twickenham and I have a lot of Lencarta kit here that you're welcome to play with.

Depending on dates I'd be happy to give you a couple of hours of tuition FOC if that helps..?

Top bloke and top offer...

Thanks for your kind offer! I am in Enfield but I can definitely come to Twickenham :) Just tell me the date and Ill be there :)

You could do a lot worse, he's a nice bloke and has forgotten more than most know.
 
At the risk of being bumptious and over presumptive, I too live in Twickers..how about widening out and doing a small half day workshop? I have been tinkering with OCF (sb700s and yn622's) for a while with some sucess, but my studio flash experience is minimal.
I had a look at your website and had no idea such talent was local to me. I'm sure if one or two others came, some payment could make it worth your while to help with your kind offer to Lena.
Just a thought....and apologies for the appalling gate crashing of the thread.
 
Let me make contact with Lena first and see what she wants to do.

I don't have a studio at present, so any tuition needs to be done in my home, and there's space for only 2 or max 3 students at a time comfortably.

The alternative is to hire a local hall, but then additional costs are involved.

I'm happy to do an occasional workshop / training session, and there's no charge for those who are interested in learning.
 
We could ask Martin at Lenslocker - he has a studio near pizza express. I will call him and put out some feelers.
You are very kind. In return I can offer to write a piece for you (I write for a pro audio magazine and a big audio website) which we can offer to the camera magazines.
 
Let me make contact with Lena first and see what she wants to do.

I don't have a studio at present, so any tuition needs to be done in my home, and there's space for only 2 or max 3 students at a time comfortably.

The alternative is to hire a local hall, but then additional costs are involved.

I'm happy to do an occasional workshop / training session, and there's no charge for those who are interested in learning.
Just emailed you :)
 
:agree: That's a very comprehensive and helpful answer.


Thats kind of you Garry. It got much longer than first intended once I got writing and after posting I thought I had got a bit carried away. Hope no one got too bored :)

Thanks also Denyerec.
 
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I know that best way to learn is practise

I dont 100% agree with that as a starting point. I think doing a bit of learning in advance of practise will do you a ton of favours. First time I was kindly leant access to a model and lights I realised I should have done a lot more research to discover what images/poses I wanted to obtain (mind goes a blank when new to models and lights) and also what lighting patterns would be effective for the image I had wanted. Frankly using the actual lights was secondary to knowing exactly what I wanted and if it was achievable. My first studio attempt really put me off as I became aware of my own ignorance very quickly and because I did not know what I wanted I found I ended up with a bunch of very poor images that were more the creation of the (well intentioned) model and the people running the session. Hence my saying be defined and knowledgeable about what you want before wasting your own and other peoples time and getting all disappointed yourself, though perhaps you already have clear defined ideas so this will not be an issue for you in the way it was for me.

If you are experimenting you can use household lighting to get a feel for shadow and lignt placement. I spent yesterday evening doing a few provisional test shots for some items, just using a couple of IKEA LED desk lights with the flexible stems (circ £10 each). It does not matter if the colour is not perfect or if the lighting is too dark so the ISO is pushed high, as I am looking for shadow/light placement. Its only a draft.

Anglepoise style lights etc are just as handy, its the understanding you need to look for first, not a perfect final image. I have also found lighting white objects to be helpful as where shadows fall is much more obvious than if you light anything with colour or that is very dark in shade. Move on to lighting black stuff later.


Damien Lovegrove is a very good lighter - he started off working in TV studios etc

http://www.lovegrovephotography.com/category/galleries/
 
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