Lightroom Vs Photoshop (which ever version)Vs the rest

[Cobra]

I have CS3 and lightroom 2.1 ( I think it is)
I have tried using it (Lightroom) on several occasions
and find that CS3 is far easier and better to use

I am not looking for tips and tricks in lightroom
( but if you have a favourite then feel free to post them)

I doubt that anything said will make me change my mind
but lets find out...........

 

[tdodd]

Love Lightroom. Hate Photoshop. It's that simple.

Of course, Photoshop has far more control and power, but I find it unintuitive to use and cannot find the patience to get to grips with it. I have tried and failed. Lightroom, on the other hand, has plenty of power for the photographer, if not the graphic artist, and its simplicity, speed and ease of use is one of its great strengths.

When you have 900 or so images from a wedding or motorsports event, for example, it's Lightroom that I want to help me sift through the gems and duffers and then fix my WB, levels/curves and maybe crop/straighten a bit. For my needs there is no need for Photoshop unless I am doing heavy duty edits, which I don't.

 

[Cobra]

Cool I feel the same about lightroom though

 

[foodpoison]

I tried lightroom and hated it.
I understand it's time saving benefits and how it could potentially be a better tool in the long run, but I'm fairly speedy at processing in photoshop now.
Off the card, into folder, delete clear duffers in windows explorer, load raw into photoshop, process accordingly, save keepers into jpeg folder, process jpeg, resize sharpen watermark, save in 'for web' folder.
Done.

To do one image, depending on the process, can take me 5 minutes.

 

[Mark.A]

It's not a fair comparison. Lightroom is primarily an image catalog with some in built editing ability. The editing is very user friendly and allows you to quickly apply changes to multiple images. It doesn't have layers like photoshop and you can't do things like dodging and burning. More advanced editing is where photoshop comes in. I use both together and find it gives me a great workflow that I like. I stick my card in the PC, lightroom picks it up and imports my files (as DNG) and then I sort through them in LR. The compare function is great when going through and sorting the images.

I can then apply white balance, etc. to all the images that are from the same setting in one go. It's ever so easy to apply many changes to colour/tone/contrast/levels, etc. and then apply those same changes to other images in just one click. You can also save presets for any look you create that you can then apply to other images. To be honest I do the majority of my editing in LR but I wouldn't be without CS3 for when the heavy editing techniques are needed. I'm sure I could do the exact same edits in CS3 that I do in LR but it's nowhere near as fast or intuitive. So for me LR speeds things up and just makes my workflow easier and more enjoyable.

 

[Cobra]

It's not a fair comparison.

I agree with that however there have been loads of threads
in the past how one is "better" than the other
I thought that it would be interesting to try and get a definitive answer
(Yeah like thats ever going to happen )

that I do in LR but it's nowhere near as fast or intuitive. So for me LR speeds things up and just makes my workflow easier and more enjoyable.

For me lightroom is so much slower for example
the "tools" are not easily to hand like CS3

 

[tdodd]

For me lightroom is so much slower for example the "tools" are not easily to hand like CS3

I don't follow that logic at all. The tools are right there, in front of your face. All of them. OK, you may have to scroll the tool palette up and down a bit but there is no pecking through menus or remembering a gazillion shortcut keys.

It's all right there. Just click and slide.

You can do limited local adjustments of things like exposure, sharpening, saturation and others, with a paintbrush tool as well.

You don't have to remember to save, or worry about what to save and where to save. Lightroom leaves your original files unaltered. It just stores the edit commands in its catalog. It's quick and pretty much idiot proof, just not as advanced for editing.

 

[Cobra]

It just looks so "messy" and I find it fiddly to use
Also the amount of available tools seem rather limited compared to CS3
( unless there
are other hidden that I can't find?)
I never use "keyboard shortcuts"
I guess its just what you are used to.
And I certainly can't get to grips with it

 

[itsdavedotnet]

I very rarely use photoshop, but lightroom or bridge or aperture is a truly essential thing to have your workflow based around tbh, if you take even a medium number of photos.

Just the ability to flick through the raws of a day's shooting, rate the producable shots, bin the absolute dud raws to save disk space (test shots etc) is essnential imo... going through and copying and pasting files in windows, or worse, opening each one in ACR, would just be unimaginably painful. Even if you don't have lightroom or aperture, download bridge (free ), it just saves SO much work when it comes to reducing down shot numbers.

As for lightroom, I'd really suffer without it now! As far as an organisational tool, as I said, rating system, quick searches by camera, date, even lens, and keyword tag are all really essential to not losing track of where photos are.

I _very_ rarely have to dig into using photoshop, only when I want to use filters, or do some more heavy duty stuff - lightroom is able to handle over 95% of what I want to do, and paint.net (a free and light weight image editor that still has decent functionality) handles the few little things that lightroom can't do but I can't be bothered to use ps to do.

Also, the batch processes, saved procedures and presets in lightroom is an absolute godsend if you work with a lot of images... just saves time doing the little things (eg exporting small versions, keywording, etc), and even a built in system for very simply making a simpleviewer gallery of pictures, and automatically ftping them to my hosting, is just fantastic.

Cobra, for lots of the other tools, go into the 'develop' stage of the workflow At the end of the day, it's not photoshop, but imo you don't really want that for when dealing with lots of images, you want to be able to tweak something quickly, maybe check again what it looked like without the changes, etc... the ACR style controls in the screenshot above of exposure tint etc, a simple straighten and crop tool (and lightroom's straighten tool is the best out of ANY software I've ever used...), heal and clone, decent functionality for good greyscale conversion, are probably all most people need for /most/ images really...

 

[Mark.A]

It just looks so "messy" and I find it fiddly to use
Also the amount of available tools seem rather limited compared to CS3
( unless there
are other hidden that I can't find?)
I never use "keyboard shortcuts"
I guess its just what you are used to.
And I certainly can't get to grips with it

I think you probably find it fiddly because you're not used to using it. If you get used to it and figure out where everything is it really is much quicker than using photoshop. There are a lot of editing tools in LR, it's just knowing where each is and learning how to use it, is there something in particular you are wanting to do?

 

[Cobra]

Cobra, for lots of the other tools, go into the 'develop' stage of the workflow At the end of the day, it's not photoshop, but imo you don't really want that for when dealing with lots of images, you want to be able to tweak something quickly, maybe check again what it looked like without the changes, etc... the ACR style controls in the screenshot above of exposure tint etc, a simple straighten and crop tool (and lightroom's straighten tool is the best out of ANY software I've ever used...), heal and clone, decent functionality for good greyscale conversion, are probably all most people need for /most/ images really...

I do (have in the past) delved into "develop"
Yeah your probably right but it "suits you" and obviously a lot of others
Personally as I said I find it "hard work" and prefer CS3
I just wanted others opinions really

I think you probably find it fiddly because you're not used to using it. If you get used to it and figure out where everything is it really is much quicker than using photoshop. There are a lot of editing tools in LR, it's just knowing where each is and learning how to use it, is there something in particular you are wanting to do?

I spent the same amount of time using light room as I did CS3 when I
initially got a several months ago, ( LR that is) and found CS3 "easier" to learn
in a similar time scale

There is nothing in particular Mark it was just a question out of curiosity
and so far looks as though I am in the minority

( well apart from the 1 guy who is off down the pub )

 

[jimlizard]

I use both for my most serious work.

Changing the subject a little, Capture One Pro is a slightly better RAW converter than Lightroom, regarding file quality. However I found the files to need more post-processing to look better. Lightroom can also give you a lot of adjustment options, including masks and local editing, which is incredible.
For those reasons I don't use Capture One Pro anymore.

Since Lightroom can offer so much control, for family photos and stuff like that, most of the time I don't even need to open photoshop after converting the RAW files.

 

[Cobra]

Since Lightroom can offer so much control, for family photos and stuff like that, most of the time I don't even need to open photoshop after converting the RAW files.

OK so have you used abobe camera raw and if so, how does that compare ?

 

[Caledonia]

I've voted that I use both. Although I would estimate 90% of the work I do is in Lightroom.

Lightroom covers all the basic edits you need to do on a photo - WB, exposure, cropping/straightening, dust and spot removal etc. You can even do selective editing, but not to the degree that you can in PS.

As for the remaing 10% which may need more advanced tools, layers etc. Thats when I dig out PS.

If I had to make a choice between which one to get rid of, it would reluctantly be PS. I could live without PS but my world would come to an end if I didn't have LR.

 

[JasonRS]

OK so have you used abobe camera raw and if so, how does that compare ?

It runs on the same engine, and probably has the same range of available adjustments ( I don't have CS4, yet so can't compare directly) there are some tools in LR 2.x that I don't have in the version of Camera Raw that's available with CS3 though.

Lightroom is about the whole non destructive RAW workflow, import, catalog, sort, develop, output to print / web etc, whereas Photoshop is much more pertinent to image manipulation, multiple layer editing & masking, pixel level editing, transforming etc, etc, etc. They're different tools with a degree of overlap.

And I love Virtual Copies

I tend to use Lightroom 80% of the time, and the other 20% is when I meed to do some deeper retouching, e.g. skin smoothing or getting at tools like liquify. I also have to use Photoshop for merging images, like replacing backdrops, cloning and the like which again, can't do in Lightroom.

 

[Cobra]

Ok I have re-visited LR whilst keeping an eye on this thread
I have come up with a couple of what I consider "awkward" or "not found" tasks
in LR ,that take seconds in CS3
Lets hope I can explain my "frustration" clearly

1)Crop tool, CS3 left hand tool bar crop tool opens up a "size" option
enter figures then you can crop to and fixed size or free hand, and adjust / straighten in one hit

Crop tool LR drop down menu top bar opens up a palette on the right hand side and crop to same aspect ratio and straighten where the hell is the crop to a specific size
or free hand crop certainly doesn't seem to be available as a "one hit"

2) importing to CS3 from "any" desktop folder ( I don't use the library or organise function)drag and drop
Importing from LR into library then switch to develop

3) CS3 save as / save for web and devices drop down menu top tool bar "one hit"

LR doesn't seem to have this function

4) CS3 Image re-size again drop down menu

LR I guess its there somewhere :shrug:

CS3 just seem so easy and better laid out

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Everyone has their preferences and everyone has their own methods.

Lightroom is essentially an image management program that also offers a variety of editing facilities and is designed to work back to back with Photoshop in a similar way to Bridge.

Photoshop is a much more advanced program with far more facilities unavailable within Lightroom.
Not all editing techniques can be done by clicking/dragging sliders and that's exactly where programs like photoshop come into play.

Horses for courses really.

 

[itsdavedotnet]

Ok I have re-visited LR whilst
2) importing to CS3 from "any" desktop folder ( I don't use the library or organise function)drag and drop
Importing from LR into library then switch to develop

3) CS3 save as / save for web and devices drop down menu top tool bar "one hit"

LR doesn't seem to have this function

4) CS3 Image re-size again drop down menu

LR I guess its there somewhere :shrug:

CS3 just seem so easy and better laid out

2) the main feature of lightroom is that it is a library and organisation tool, so of course opening a folder of images isn't the 'default' way that it works.

3) right click on an image / selected images, export. You can then choose settings there for exporting the whole load there, or choose a preset that you've already defined.

4) The purpose of lightroom is you finalise the image in lightroom, and then export with the settings that you want, so there really isn't much point in having an image resize, or crop size function... the aspect ratio crop of lightroom is pretty simple, and you can have custom preset ratios too, but then the idea is that because lightroom does not MODIFY the original image, things like 'resize' are an old way of thinking - the way to do things in lightroom is to finalise the image, and then export it with the right settings, or right premade preset. Simplified life, especially for large batches of images.

 

[AndyB]

Lightroom does a few things very well. PS does a lot more things equally well. I think what it comes down to is how much you need/want to do with your images. No point using PS if you only use 10% of what it does.

From my limited experience with LR (since I only installed it last week) I can see it's probably a good tool for dealing with large volumes of pictures of a similar type ie, weddings and events, where no special creative work is needed. For that it is the faster tool.

PS on the otherhand is for those who need to spend longer on individual images where the creative input is required and layers would be the only sensible way to do it. For that Lightroom simply won't do the job (but it's not designed to)

If they were both products that did the same things Adobe wouldn't market them both. The reality is that they are not different versions of the same thing - they are products designed for different purposes even though there are cross-overs.

It's a bit like saying what's better out of an umberella and a plastic carrier bag. You can hold both over your head and keep the rain off but one is designed to do the job. You could also carry shopping in both but one's going to be a little easier to use

 

[Cobra]

Interesting post Tomas

That is pretty much the way I had assumed it to be
However as I said somewhere ( at least I think I did or meant too)
There seemed to be quite a lot in favour of LR over CS3
( I guess the price is a factor not to be ignored, and there is now way in hell I would have bought CS3 if not for the
"student licence" £160 I think it was for the extended version)


I was just curious to find out if it (LR) was used exclusively for what ever reason
and was it a better bet?
Very much like the Canon Vs Nikon mac Vs PC, Marmite Vs Peanut butter
arguments I guess

 

[Cobra]

2) the main feature of lightroom is that it is a library and organisation tool, so of course opening a folder of images isn't the 'default' way that it works.

Yep I am beginning to realise that now from "input"

3) right click on an image / selected images, export. You can then choose settings there for exporting the whole load there, or choose a preset that you've already defined.

I don't do masses of editing so really any type of"batch processing" is
not a lot of use to me though I understand that CS3 will batch process

4) , things like 'resize' are an old way of thinking - the way to do things in lightroom is to finalise the image, and then export it with the right settings. Simplified life, especially for large batches of images.

I wouldn't have thought it "old ways" as I am sure that resizing is quite important, I for one use it quite a lot

It's a bit like saying what's better out of an umberella and a plastic carrier bag. You can hold both over your head and keep the rain off but one is designed to do the job. You could also carry shopping in both but one's going to be a little easier to use

That has to be the best quote of the thread

 

[itsdavedotnet]

of course the 'real' workflow is to organise and do base level editing in LR, and then finish off editing in photoshop, then export from lightroom to web, using the built in tools.... so that you have to buy two expensive adobe products rather than just the one!

horses for courses, depends what kinda shooting you do, etc

 

[Cobra]

thenexport from lightroom to web, using the built in tools.... so that you have to buy two expensive adobe products rather than just the one!

Why didn't I think of that ?
It all becomes so much clearer now

 

[AndyB]

Well if you look at it that way Canon's DPP will give you the base level editing, global actions and batch conversions etc so no need to spend out on the LR software (I have both now but I can see me using DPP far more because of the speed) if you're a Canon user. Not sure what the Nikon RAW converter is like so I can't comment on that.

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Interesting post Tomas

That is pretty much the way I had assumed it to be
However as I said somewhere ( at least I think I did or meant too)
There seemed to be quite a lot in favour of LR over CS3

There is indeed and fair enough too, I really does depend on how you like to finish of your recipe I'spose and the nature of the work you like to present.

Pre-Lightroom my image management was appalling and I still have trouble finding images that I took and processed in 2007.
Now I can find everything quickly even though I have separate catalogues for each client.

When I have jobs such as an ice skating competition or end of season show for parents, I shoot, then during the change overs I upload the images into Lightroom, tag, rate, reject the duffies and sort via team name or event.

I can find any image through the library module, search by attribute whether it's lens type, camera type, ISO rating, aperture, you name it it you can narrow the search down from sets of thousands of images in seconds.
A superb facility if you are shooting with two bodies or remotes.

I have three external drives and soon to add a fourth, there's probably some 200,000 raw files taken in the last 18 months or so, not many in comparison to a full time sports photog but more than enough for me to rifle through. I'm very glad of Lightroom, these days sports events are even more pleasurable thanks to on location organization

Nikon
Mac
Peanie Butter
Marmite
Lightroom & CS4

 

[Jo]

Paint Shop Pro Photo x2 is all I need (or any newer versions that come out). So my answer was neither.

 

[Ant]

Photoshop for individual images, lightroom for batch processes.

The last gallery on my website was done via lightroom. Just sync the settings, and press go.

 

[Cezare]

I use both Lightroom 2.3 & Photoshop CS4 daily

for work we use 2.1 & CS3.

I personally gear towards Photoshop & bridge when working on shoots & raw files.
speed, post processing power & tools are much better in photoshop.

Lightroom is good for web exports, galleries, and quick catalogues.

I spend at least 5+ hours a day in Photoshop - nothing comes close

 

[Cobra]

Pre-Lightroom my image management was appalling and I still have trouble finding images that I took and processed in 2007.
Now I can find everything quickly even though I have separate catalogues for each client. ...................
...... I upload the images into Lightroom, tag, rate, reject the duffies and sort via team name or event..............

..........I can find any image through the library module, search by attribute whether it's lens type, camera type, ISO rating, aperture, you name it it you can narrow the search down from sets of thousands of images in seconds.
.............

............ I'm very glad of Lightroom, these days sports events are even more pleasurable thanks to on location organization

Nikon
Mac
Peanie Butter
Marmite
Lightroom & CS4

Oh to be that organised Tomas
I have programmes that will "bag and tag"
But TBH I don't shoot that much and "everything" is laying around in dated folders
with a few more "specific title" folders
I guess if I did shoot professionally or hundreds / thousands a week I would have to think about "bagging and tagging"
But for now its just "organised chaos on my hard drive
Oh and I like peanut butter and marmite
Not to sure about your other choices though

Paint Shop Pro Photo x2 is all I need (or any newer versions that come out). So my answer was neither.

And a damned fine programme it is to Jo
and I would probably be still using it if it wasn't for the afore mentioned "student licence" on CS3

Photoshop for individual images, lightroom for batch processes.

A nice straight forward answer
but CS3 will batch process is LR better at it than CS3 or is it that
your leaned on LR and just find it easier?

 

[Cobra]

I use both Lightroom 2.3 & Photoshop CS4 daily

for work we use 2.1 & CS3.

I personally gear towards Photoshop & bridge when working on shoots & raw files.
speed, post processing power & tools are much better in photoshop.
Lightroom is good for web exports, galleries, and quick catalogues.

I spend at least 5+ hours a day in Photoshop - nothing comes close

I was Begining to think I was in a majority of 1



and I am glad to see a couple of others have joined the guy down the pub

 

[RobertP]

I don't enjoy editing and dislike photoshop. I used to do everything in Pixmantec Rawshooter and just export to best jpeg as a final step in editing. Buying Lightroom was the obvious next step.

I like that I can spend time on editing if I need to and if I have a bunch of similar images just copy the adjustments to the other pictures and they are pretty much edited too with no effort. As lightroom saves a list of edits for applying to a raw file and not a modified picture there is no bloat from having saved tiffs or whatever either.

By using the keywords system and all the other metadata tools finding pictures is very easy. I have a date and event based folder system but a lightroom search is far easier.

I'm still learning how to get the best from it but I voted Lightroom only and don't need anything else.

 

[Cobra]

.......I'm still learning how to get the best from it but I voted Lightroom only and don't need anything else.

Thats fair comment Robert it works for you so why go anywhere else

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Not to sure about your other choices though

Well it's really the next bit that counts mate...

Oh and I like peanut butter and marmite

All is forgiven

 

[Cobra]

Well it's really the next bit that counts mate...



All is forgiven

Thanks

 

[theMusicMan]

1)Crop tool, CS3 left hand tool bar crop tool opens up a "size" option
enter figures then you can crop to and fixed size or free hand, and adjust / straighten in one hit

Crop tool LR drop down menu top bar opens up a palette on the right hand side and crop to same aspect ratio and straighten where the hell is the crop to a specific size
or free hand crop certainly doesn't seem to be available as a "one hit"

It is available as a one hit. In LR, press r, then drag corners or edges to crop.

You only need to determine fixed pixel size when you wish to create a new image, so you choose the dimensions at export time - for a single image or for multiple selected images, easy either way.

2) importing to CS3 from "any" desktop folder ( I don't use the library or organise function)drag and drop
Importing from LR into library then switch to develop

In LR, you can either sync a folder, then all images in that folder are in LR, or use the 'import from disk' option. You can even apply presets to all images on import (or export).

3) CS3 save as / save for web and devices drop down menu top tool bar "one hit"

LR doesn't seem to have this function

In LR...

if single image selected: right click, export. voila

if multiple images selected: right click, export. voila

4) CS3 Image re-size again drop down menu

As 1. Select the fixed size you require on export. Or select 'x' pixels on longest edge, shortest edge et al... loads of options.

How's that...?

Also... LR is non destructive, in that all edits to your images are stored as XML and the original RAW is still there in all it's pre-edited glory, and is just a click away.

Also again... if I want to use CS3 to edit a particular image in more detail (such as selective crop) then I instigate this from within LR... the CS edited image then appears in LR once I save it from CS3.

Also again again... I can mark and filter my images with colours, codes, picks, stars et al... and upload them directly to my online gallery from within LR. LR then knows which images I have 'uploaded' and I can filter any selection of images ot show this (or any other attribute). I can show all images on a date or date range, all images with a certain lens, or with a certain aperture, or a combination of any. Any keyword can be used in conjunction with any other EXIF attribute to create a new set of images.

Also again again again... I can apply any preset to any number of selected images in seconds. I can add keywords to hundreds of images in seconds. I can add any setting adjustment (such as exposure, clarity, sharpness, vignette, border, aberation, contrast, brightness, fill light et al to any number of images in seconds.

How's that...?

Need more?

 

[Cobra]

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that its appriciated
I don't catalogue or bag & tag so that really doesn't enter the equation

It is available as a one hit. In LR, press r, then drag corners or edges to crop.
Fair enough but that assumes I read the manual
I find drop downs easier that keyboard short cuts

As 1. Select the fixed size you require on export. Or select 'x' pixels on longest edge, shortest edge et al... loads of options.

How's that...?
I'll give it a try Also when I have tried to "export" in light room the image has totally buggered off never to be seen again
( BTW not really bothered about that as I said right at the start

"I doubt that anything said will make me change my mind")
I just find CS3 smoother and more managable

 

[nfulcher]

I have been a user of photoshop since version 3.0 and think its brilliant (now using CS4).

I had a trial with Lightroom and found it a bit alien at first. However, borrowed Scott Kelby's Lightroom 2 book and my workflow has improved immeasurably.

While I still use photoshop for clever stuff, Lightroom takes away the pain of managing my images. From import to output (be that to my website, to Print, to a Slideshow in PDF/JPG, or seamlessly to Flickr)) Lightroom saves me hours. Used properly, much of the tagging/organising is performed automatically on import.

Before LR, trying to find specific images more than a few months old was difficult as I never could be bothered to properly tag/categorise my images. Even using Bridge, PS cannot touch LR for taking the drudgery out of basic processing and image management.

Luckily, I have, and use, both. If I had to choose, no contest, Lightroom saves me hours. Each to their own though...

 

[jimlizard]

OK so have you used abobe camera raw and if so, how does that compare ?

I much prefer lightroom's workflow and I also believe files look better using the same parameters.

 

[Craikeybaby]

I'm also a big Lightroom fan, but I also think you have to see it as more than an editing program, afterall that is only a part of it. Photoshop is a pure editing program, so if you are still in the Photoshop mindset you will miss out a lot of Lightrooms functionality. Another hint to get thinking in the Lightroom way, is to consider each image in the library as a master, you then generate copies as needed, I see this as having a few advantages, you only need one copy of each image on your HD, each export can be tailored for the desired use, I.E you may want to post an image at 800px wide here, but only 600px wide somewhere else.

The develop module is pretty much the same as ACR, but with a few more tools, my tip is to start at basic module, then work down, then return to the top for the crop and local edits etc.

 

[Hopkin Green Frog]

Just to add to what seems to be the general opinion - I use both side by side. Lightroom is the first port of call, and is used to run through a batch of images and really quickly accept or reject them. That gives me a subset of the original shoot I'll then work with. Next, still in lightroom, I come up with a style/look for the images (if you hadn't gathered, I'm perfectly happy with doing lots of post-work, and find the whole "get it right in the camera" philosophy a bit mental). Usually I'll get a bunch of settings, save them as a preset, then apply them to the whole batch, THEN I'll run through again - this time culling and tweaking.

Photoshop comes in for more specific work - cleaning up spots, bits of dodge and burn, getting rid of background artefacts etc, since that's what photoshop is for.

Then I go back to lightroom, kill the original images that have edited versions, and use LR to make a PDF contact sheet - upload to webserver, email client and they can have a look.

Although that sounds like a lot of work, it's actually a really quick and efficient workflow