Lighting Feedback - Fiancee Umbrella Portraits

You may want to ask in Studio and Lighting as well

H
 
Hello again :)
There are better people than me to give advice and I look forward to reading it too.

H
 
I'm starting to feel, the first image - the light is lighting too much the side of her face. Even though the photos is a little 'over-exposed' by design - the face is, by comparison, in 'shadow'
 
dancook said:
I'm starting to feel, the first image - the light is lighting too much the side of her face. Even though the photos is a little 'over-exposed' by design - the face is, by comparison, in 'shadow'
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From the little I know and even this not gospel

F2.8 is going to be bright, do you need the shallow dof ? around f8-11 is the go to in many cases

But wait for better advice than I can offer

H
 
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2 things I'm not keen on are the lack of depth of field & the lighting looks flat.
 
It's... pleasant. She looks like a nice, kind mother. Is that the effect you were going for?

I'm guessing that the reflective umbrella is supposed to be the key light and the shoot through is supposed to be a fill light. But actually it's the shoot through umbrella that's doing most of the work, and light spilled from it is bouncing all around the room and adding fill from just about everywhere else.

I think that that shot would have been much, much better if the reflective umbrella had been at the same height but directly above the shoot through, and if the power of the shoot through had been turned down much lower. I'm not sure what contribution the reflector made.
 
Thanks, I have been using f8 in my other recent experimentation. I think I was just trying a lot of things out today. I will go back to f8 :)

I will also look at changing the flashes power in groups
 
Garry Edwards said:
It's... pleasant. She looks like a nice, kind mother. Is that the effect you were going for?
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Well I started off trying to do some high-key against the window - which is why the aperture was wide when we went back into the room.

Just trying out a lot of different things really, I was happy with the general look of light on the lcd preview at the time... but that quickly diminishes once you start really analysing it :)

Garry Edwards said:
I'm guessing that the reflective umbrella is supposed to be the key light and the shoot through is supposed to be a fill light. But actually it's the shoot through umbrella that's doing most of the work, and light spilled from it is bouncing all around the room and adding fill from just about everywhere else.
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I started to think as much as I looked more and more at it.

Garry Edwards said:
I think that that shot would have been much, much better if the reflective umbrella had been at the same height but directly above the shoot through, and if the power of the shoot through had been turned down much lower. I'm not sure what contribution the reflector made.
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I look forward to giving your suggestion a try!


--
I took this earlier in the shoot, but probably looks a bit flat..


Louise - Umbrella Photos by dancook1982, on Flickr
 
Garry Edwards said:
It's... pleasant. She looks like a nice, kind mother. Is that the effect you were going for?

I'm guessing that the reflective umbrella is supposed to be the key light and the shoot through is supposed to be a fill light. But actually it's the shoot through umbrella that's doing most of the work, and light spilled from it is bouncing all around the room and adding fill from just about everywhere else.

I think that that shot would have been much, much better if the reflective umbrella had been at the same height but directly above the shoot through, and if the power of the shoot through had been turned down much lower. I'm not sure what contribution the reflector made.
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Do you mean clam shell

H
 
dancook said:
I took this earlier in the shoot, but probably looks a bit flat..


Louise - Umbrella Photos by dancook1982, on Flickr
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The angle, pose and expression are nice, but the light, as Garry says, is all kinds of wrong.

It's not just that it's flat, the lower light is doing a lot of the work and the higher one isn't really high enough. We're used to seeing faces lit from above and when they're not it can jar straight away.

Look at the shape of the shadow to the side of the nose, it's just 'odd', we're not used to seeing people look like that. And the flatness makes her chin disappear into her neck which isn't very flattering.
 
Thanks Phil, I hope my next set will be a step in the right direction!
 
Hell on earth said:
Do you mean clam shell

H
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Yes... and no.

No, because I don't do formulaic lighting. What I do do is
1. Find out what kind of shot is required (hence my question, is she supposed to look like a kind mother, because that is exactly what she does look like to me)
2. Look at the qualities of the model and work out the type of lighting that will bring out those qualities.
3. Position a single light where it will produce the effect that I want (in this case my starting point would be high, and directly in front of where the model is looking)
Think about whether that light has produced unacceptable shadows. If it has, try a reflector, low down, to mitigate those shadows.
4. If the reflector doesn't have enough effect, swap it for a fill light. A shoot through umbrella is ideal for this. Set it to the lowest possible power, take a test shot, if necessary turn the power up a bit, try again, and so on.

That can end up as clamshell lighting, but basically clamshell lighting (as taught) involves a rigid setup, people start off with 2 lights because they assume that they're needed, and the set them to a certain ratio, without even thinking about it.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes... and no.

No, because I don't do formulaic lighting. What I do do is
1. Find out what kind of shot is required (hence my question, is she supposed to look like a kind mother, because that is exactly what she does look like to me)
2. Look at the qualities of the model and work out the type of lighting that will bring out those qualities.
3. Position a single light where it will produce the effect that I want (in this case my starting point would be high, and directly in front of where the model is looking)
Think about whether that light has produced unacceptable shadows. If it has, try a reflector, low down, to mitigate those shadows.
4. If the reflector doesn't have enough effect, swap it for a fill light. A shoot through umbrella is ideal for this. Set it to the lowest possible power, take a test shot, if necessary turn the power up a bit, try again, and so on.

That can end up as clamshell lighting, but basically clamshell lighting (as taught) involves a rigid setup, people start off with 2 lights because they assume that they're needed, and the set them to a certain ratio, without even thinking about it.
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Thanks Garry, that would be pretty flat lighting right? and as you say the "mum" look

How would you light her a bit more edgy "Girlfriend* without going to far in to sexy goddess.

H
 
Hell on earth said:
Thanks Garry, that would be pretty flat lighting right? and as you say the "mum" look

How would you light her a bit more edgy "Girlfriend* without going to far in to sexy goddess.

H
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Erm... as above. I might also move the key light further to the far side, to create a partial rimlight. It's all about light placement and experimentation. I never actually know exactly what I'm going to do until I'm looking at my subject.
 
Am I right in thinking that it will only take a relatively minor movement of one of the lights to significantly improve these shots?
 
DrGed said:
Am I right in thinking that it will only take a relatively minor movement of one of the lights to significantly improve these shots?
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Yes.
But, more to the point, the lower light is producing far too much of it.
 
Garry, if you are still up

I'm shooting my best friend tomorrow and that makes me more nervous than anything
Just head and shoulders, she wants both high and low light

I'm thinking I'll use my 100x2 soft box as a hilite for the bg

I have both a reflector umbrella and a white shoot through and a large reflector, I know it's a bit subjective but would like your view.

Would you use the reflector umbrella or the shoot through as the main

Low, I think I already have a setup.

H
 
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Helen,
I don't know what your friend looks like
I don't know what sort of shots she wants
So, I don't know how I would light her, and would only know once she was in front of me. But, logic suggests that the reflective should be the key, the shoot through should be the fill
 
Garry Edwards said:
Helen,
I don't know what your friend looks like
I don't know what sort of shots she wants
So, I don't know how I would light her, and would only know once she was in front of me. But, logic suggests that the reflective should be the key, the shoot through should be the fill
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Garry, yeah I'm asking a lot, I'm sure I'll be fine, just going to be pushed for time so trying to work a lot out before hand

Thank you :)

H
 
I tried to incorporate the advice given. Sometimes turning off the fill from time to time throughout various positions to see where and why it might be needed.

Also when looking up at the modifier took a quick break whilst I put it up high and tried the shot again - though I don't think my ceiling is tall to get the catch lights high enough in this situation.

1.
Louise by dancook1982, on Flickr

2.
Louise by dancook1982, on Flickr

3.
Louise by dancook1982, on Flickr

4.
Louise by dancook1982, on Flickr

5.
Louise by dancook1982, on Flickr

6.
Louise by dancook1982, on Flickr
 
Those shots are a massive improvement on what you had before - she is now looking like a girlfriend, not the nice lady who works in the corner shop.

Objective advice:
1. If the ceiling isn't high enough, get her to sit instead of stand
2. Some of those shots don't work because her mouth is clenched shut. Her face would look better if her expressions was "loose" with her lips slightly apart. I can see that she can do that, some people can't and look odd when they try.

Subjective advice:
1. The fill light is still too powerful for my taste
2. You're lighting too much of her face. No. 2 is the best in this regard, you have created a little shadows, personally I would create more by moving the light further to the right (except on shot 3, where I would move it much further to the left)
 
Wow lovely, well done :)

H
 
Thanks a lot all, your advice is great Garry. thankyou

hah Garry, just realised you are from Len Carta :) where I've been buying some of my gear.

- oh and about the 'sitting down' thing. That's where the radiator is! ... I need a photo studio....
 
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dancook said:
Thanks a lot all, your advice is great Garry. thankyou

hah Garry, just realised you are from Len Carta :) where I've been buying some of my gear.

- oh and about the 'sitting down' thing. That's where the radiator is! ... I need a photo studio....
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Which reminds me...
You're taller than she is, you're looking down on her - literally and figuratively. My guess is that if you have the camera at her height, not yours, the radiator won't be too high, and she will also look stronger, more powerful.

If I'm wrong, give her a cushion to sit on:)
 
Well done Dan, the new shots look SO much better.

Garry, you have been a star on this thread. I'm sure others will learn from this too. :thumbs:
 
dancook said:
Thanks Phil, I hope my next set will be a step in the right direction!
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They certainly are, shows just how easy it actually is, and how we can over complicate it by trying too hard
 
Dan, can you tell or show us the set please
H
 
Thanks for your comments guys!

Hell on earth said:
Dan, can you tell or show us the set please
H
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The 'set-up' do you mean?

There was a mixture of using a reflective umbrella and beauty dish as a key light. The shoot through umbrella, fill light, was positioned below many shots, was just rested on the floor with the flash just sat on the floor pointed up into it.

All set up in the living room against a light grey wall.
 
Coming on leaps and bounds Dan, but you're cheating with a model like that ;) Very pretty, very photogenic, so natural :thumbs:

Maybe subjective, but I'd lose the fill-light completely. Just don't need anything more than a reflector when the key light is already soft from a brolly or softbox. It avoids any possibility of conflicting shadows, and I also don't care for multiple catch-lights as a rule.

TBH I can't remember the last time I had more than one light directly on a subject's face, though I accept it's maybe necessary with a hard key light casting heavy shadows. Save it for effects, accents, hair, background etc, and leave the face clean and simple. IMHO anyway :)
 
Thanks Hoppy I will consider that, perhaps make better use of my second speedlight :)
 
Dan, I'm no expert but these look much better, No.2 being the best. I like No.3 too but the shadow her left hand is causing on her chin spoils it, maybe the fill light was too low (and not turned down enough).
 
Image deleted from above.

Can we please keep this thread for Dan to get feedback and advice on his images?
If others need help with their shoots then by all means start a new thread of your own - derailing and taking over somebody else's isn't fair to the OP.
 
My fiancee left for a 16mile walk - but far me to haul my camera gear... so I stayed at home to play with myself.

This is my 'I'm getting married in a month' look.


Playing with self.. by dancook1982, on Flickr

Unfortunately I'm not quite so photogenic as Louise, and I'm not very natural in front of a camera either...
 
Also wanted to update you on #5 the black and white shot, which has been deemed over exposed by some (my processing!) .. the colour version

I wanted to light the hair accessory as well as her face, which is probably why as Garry says, the fill is too strong.


Louise by dancook1982, on Flickr
 
To light the hair accessory (and of course the hair) you need a light above the head, behind and off to your left. The light spread needs to be controlled, so that it goes only where wanted, and a standard reflector fitted with a tight honeycomb (say 10 degrees) is the ideal tool for that. You could use your fill light for that purpose, maybe just stick the umbrella on the floor to act as a reflector, picking up "spare" light from the key light.

Or you could use your hotshoe flashgun. Just form a snoot from a piece of cinefoil (blackwrap) to control the spread of light, if you haven't got cinefoil then a piece of black paper would do. A hotshoe flashgun, with no modelling lamp, isn't ideal but it will do.
 
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