Legal Advice Required

magpieant

magpieant

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Righty ... the missus is fuming ... can anyone help with this one.

Here's the facts.

On Friday 6/6/08 Babs (missus) went out with our son. She left our house at 11.22am. She parked in Tesco's in Altrincham, Cheshire. Samuel (our son) has suffered from oral thrush - meaning he needed to be breast fed frequently and for long periods at times. This in turn led to her being late in returning to the car.

She arrived back at the car at 2.26pm to find she had received a ticket - parking is only permitted for 3 hours. She was parked in a parent / child bay and the attendant saw she had a baby with her.

The company who issued the ticket is Central Ticketing Ltd.

She tried debating the matter with the attendant - who, wlthough symnpathetic - said it was all done by overhead sensors, linked to computers, which monitor when a car enters the parking bay.

Obviously we appealed in writing - with a label from the mediceine samuel had been prescribed, and a copy of his birth certificate. I also asked the company to provide evidence that she had been parked there that long - as we also questioned the sensor timings.

Just got back from Newcastle tonight to a letter waiting on the doorstep..... Our appeal has been unsuccessful and if the £40 fine is not paid within 10 days it goes up to £135 + costs.

They have also provided a sheet of paper with the sensor timings - which states she had been parked in the bay since 11.06am - a fact we KNOW is wrong as she had not left the house then. (Driving a Volov, not a time machine!).

A quick google and flick through the local rag reveals that LOTS of other people have also queried the sensors as well as the ticketing company!

What can we do ?

If we don't pay, we run the risk of higher costs / legal action. If we do pay (which we're not planning on doing), we lose cash and a long battle to recoup our losses.

Plans at the moment involve a trip to the local police station and citizen's advice tomorrow.

Your thoughts and help are, as always approeciated.

Anyone on here a solicitor or know one who could give use some **FREE** advice? ;)

Cheers.

Anth.
 
Contact watchdog as well, possibly local paper (companies hate neg publicity) and young baby etc would make a good story. Also I'm sure there is a rule about having to wait 5 mins before issuing a ticket, but this may just apply to street parking (not private property). A call to tesco manager may also be good, mentioning media, as tescos also hate bad publicity.
 
T'other half is a solicitor and says citizens advice is a good place to start. Also go to the local papers and trading standards, write to watchdog but also track down the Directors of the company and write to them at their home addresses including the press articles you have already tracked down and demand to know what they are doing about it. If you were feeling brave and actually had proof that she did not leave the house until 11.22 you could actually accuse them of extortion but you will have to be able to prove that one beyond any doubt.
 
The sensor says she parked at 11.06 does it say what time she left?

Either way you can get out of it, if you can find proof she wasn't there between those times. Did she make a phone during the time period etc which can be proved on a phone bill etc?

If so it'll go to court and get thrown out. But you need something to say she wasn't there.

Alternatively did she pass any CCTV camera on the way there? That will show a time and if there is any contradiction, their evidence is not sufficient to stand.
 
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The time she left is correct.

Don't think she has any prrof that she WASN'T there at the 11.06am. However, surely it's up to them to prove that she WAS ? (Which she wasn't!!!!).

Cheers for advice so far ...

Anth.
 
I'm not 100% certain on this, but I've been told that penalty notices given by private companies are not enforceable, they'll send you a fine, but if you don't pay they'll threaten you with a higher fine, but in the end they can't do much more.

I've got a mate who got a ticket for parking in an ASDA when going to a football match, he didn't pay and to the best of my knowledge, apart from a letter, nothing else has been done, that's in Scotland so might be a different law in England though!
 
magpieant said:
The time she left is correct.

Don't think she has any prrof that she WASN'T there at the 11.06am. However, surely it's up to them to prove that she WAS ? (Which she wasn't!!!!).

Cheers for advice so far ...

Anth.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they are saying the sensors prove she was, that is what you need to dispute and if you can prove it then you have a good case.

Mobile phone records, or you could be bold and under freedom of information act you could demand the cctv footage. That would give them something to consider :)
 
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This penalty ticket is not enforceable, DO NOT PAY. Do a google search and you will see many cases of these SCUM outfits preying on motorist's ignorance of the law by issuing these tickets.
 
Yeah - seen plenty of that.

We have no intention of paying this fine. As far as we are concerned, THEY have to provide proof that we WERE there. A bit of paper with sensor timings on does not costitute proof.

Righty ... Samuel's bedtime ... back soon.

Cheers,

Anth
 
I agree with the others. I'm sure it was on Watchdog that private companies cannot enforce this although they word the letter like they can. Only local councils / police can issue parking fines (from what I remember).
 
You should also get them to confirm who the driver of the vehicle was... if they don't have it, then you can just deny it was you, as parking fines (afaik) can only be issued to the driver, not the registered keeper.

If they've got CCTV footage, I'd also send them a Data Protection Act request for all footage relating to the vehicle (which technically isn't covered by the DPA, but I doubt they'll know that ;)).

If they can ID the driver, then you'll have to argue a different route, like the timing etc.
 
Ill reply in a minute properly, but mattyh has got the gist of my answer.
 
I'm sure they would need to provide proof that the sensors were calibrated properly too.
I agree however a slip of paper with times on is no proof at all. That could have been for any space for any car. CCTV or Photographic proof would be needed.
 
Right, for a start, it is simply an invoice...that's all. It's cleverly worded and laid out and it will have "Parking Charge Notice" on it.

A real penalty notice (which these companies CANNOT give out) is called a penalty charge notice. It's no coincidence that theirs is similar. It's to scare you into paying.

The basis of the 'charge' is that :

The driver upon entering the site, is deemed to have seen the sign which details a 'contract'. The contract stating that if you stay over 3 hours, you agree to pay them £40, which will rise to etc etc.

Now, there is one major thing wrong here. It is the driver that enters into a contract, not the registered keeper.
She received the letter as the registered keeper (even though they are one and the same).
I'm going through a very similar procedure (so wont say much on a public forum ;)), but needless to say, they aren't getting a penny out of me.

Now, the driver is the one who has a contract with this company. By law she allowed to not incriminate herself, so she can simply write back and state that they have written to her as the registered keeper of the vehicle, and that their contract is with the driver. She can remind them that by law she is protected from incriminating herself or anyone else, so she cannot say who was driving at the time.

End of. They can't find out who was driving, she doesn't have to tell them. They can chase her and chase her....AS THE REGISTERED KEEPER. (The only problem is, she's admitted driving which makes this a moot point).
Bear in mind this is not a parking ticket, or penalty charge, it's simply an invoice, and your appeal is basically saying to the company "Should we give you money?" You could guess what the outcome is.

The thing is, they scare people into paying. For every 100 people they send a ticket to as registered keepers (illegaly stating they are liable for the charge, which they are not)....I reckon about 95 will pay. 5 will refuse to pay etc etc, which they will write off.
Why? Because if it goes to court, and a test case is proven against them, they stand to lose a hell of alot of money in future cases.

Anyway, onto your problem. If your wife parked there, and accepted the 'contract' of paying if over 3 hours, then fair enough. If she then doesnt pay, what happens?
They send reminders, the cost goes up a bit, then they pass it to a debt collection agency, who have no power whatsoever.
The next stage after that would be to take it to court, and you would be notified of this in advance. I think there are only a handful (single digits) of cases that have actually been taken to court.

If you wanna phone me mate, you have my number, or we can meet up and chew the fat ;)
Needless to say, I've been doing my research ALOT on this recently. Mine are simply getting ignored at the moment, and when it goes to the debt collector, I will be officially disputing the debt, so I can say to the debt collector "This debt is in dispute", in which they HAVE to pass it back to the parking company.

Have a look on www.pepipoo.com and others about PPC's (Private Parking Companies), and you will instantly feel better about your situation.
 
By the way, it's not a Penalty charge (in UK law, contracts cannot have a penalty charge), and it's not a fine either (this is another legal minefield...you cannot be given a fine unless a court or preapproved government organisation/department (ie councils) etc)
 
Hiya mate ...

Good advice - had read a similar thing on some other forums.

At the moment, they DO know who was driving - as we told them that in the appeal letter ... will copy it here, hold on .....

Dear Sir / Madam

I am writing to you to appeal against the parking charge which was issued against me today. The location of the issue was Tesco Extra, Altrincham. Location number L000678.

Travelling into Altrincham with my 11 week old son, I parked (legally) in a designated parent and child parking space. As your CCTV cameras will show, I entered the car park at approximately 11.30am.

After spending approximately 10minutes in the car park (getting the pram out of the car, assembling pram, loosening car seat safety belts, removing son from car seat, placing son in pram, moving pram out of the path of oncoming vehicles and finally returning to lock my vehicle), I then set off on foot into Tesco and Altrincham to conduct my business.

Unfortunately, my son is currently suffering from oral thrush. This condition, that can occur with breast fed babies, makes feeding a very frequent and more importantly, a very time consuming affair. Having to stop several times to visit various baby feeding facilities, meant that more time (nearly 2 hours to be precise) was spent in Altrincham than anticipated.

Upon returning to my vehicle at 2.28pm, I was horrified to find an attendant had placed a ticket on my car. When I approached the attendant, he informed me that the ticket was automatically issued by a sensor and that he could do nothing about it. The fact that I disputed the timing of the sensor may be wrong, seemed to have little impact. (An issue that following a discussion with the manager of Tesco’s, seems to be very frequent indeed!).

Looking around the car park, I noticed several other vehicles illegally parked – some on yellow lines, some on verges. When I commented on this matter, the attendant informed me that he could do nothing about this as those cars were not parked in one of ‘his’ designated spaces. How ironic to think that if I had just dumped my car at the side of the car park, as these other inconsiderate drivers had done, I would not have been issued with a ticket!

I therefore write to ask you that, whilst I appreciate that according to YOUR timings, I was ‘just’ over the permitted time allowed, the reason for this was due to me feeding, changing and attending to my very young and very hungry baby.

As regards evidence that you ask me to provide, I have supplied a copy of my son’s birth certificate and also the label from the medication he has been prescribed by our GP. The attendant who issued the ticket (attendant OP000413) will be able to verify that I had my son with me, should you wish to confirm this.

I would also be very grateful if you could provide ME with evidence that clearly shows my vehicle was parked longer than the permitted time – as I dispute this and, after checking with both the store manager and the local newspaper (Sale Altrincham Messenger), I see I am not the first person to fall victim to inaccurate sensor readings.

I hope that you will appreciate the fact that I was parked legally in a parent and child space, and the fact that (even according to your sensor timings, which I disagree with), I had still made a very conscientious effort to return to my vehicle within the permitted time – baby and all!

I seriously hope that you will consider my appeal and that common sense prevails.

I anticipate your reply.

Yours faithfully.

That's what we have sent them. Their reply was the appeal was unsuccessful and a piece of paper with some times on it.

As stated, we have no intention of paying the fine .... just wondered what the options were ?

Latest plans as of half ten tonight .... go and see police followed by citizens advice followed by customer services manager at Tesco (again!). Ignore all paper work from Central Ticketing. Wait for following to knock at door ....

a). Heavies demanding cash. (As a 6'2 Geordie I'd fancy my chances ;)
b). The law to drag the wife off to court (peaceful night? ;) ).

Either way, we're not paying.

I've read conflicting advice about whether or not to respond to their latest letter - some say argue your case, others say ignore it. Will see what citizens advice say.

Happy days eh ?

Anth.
 
I think in your situation what I'd do is register on 5ive-o, where you'll get honest impartial advice from serving police officers and a resident magistrate.

http://www.5ive-o.org/forum/portal.php

Post your question in 'Motoring Law Questions/Answers.

I'm still shown as a mod on there despite the fact that I resigned months ago, and my particular expertise is on Criminal Law.
 
Call Tesco's Customer Service Department - They are very good ! I'm sure they will also know the legal position and can help add some weight to your case. You are thier customer and it happened while you were shopping with them.
 
I would suggest send an email to the CEO of Tesco's, Sir Terry Leahy (terry.leahy@tesco.com) explaining your plight and the injustice.

I've worked with Sainsburys in the past and if you fit the ideal profile of their shoppers (at the time it was family of 2 kids with 2 cats) they would bend over backwards to appease any such situation.

Tesco's can't afford the bad publicity and the CEO will have comprehensive mail filtering to ensure such an enquiry should reach a suitable decision maker in quick time.

Best of luck I do hope it works out for you.
Phil
 
Going off CT's link, here's a link to a very similar thread. I haven't finished reading it, so not sure what the advice is if the RK has admitted they *were* driving.
http://www.5ive-o.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20125

However, what would happen if your wife didn't pay? They would have to take her to court for breach of contract.
Basically, all this is Civil law...she hasn't committed one criminal offence in her parking there for over three hours etc etc.
 
Personally-and im not being bolshy. I wouldnt bother-just pay the £40 and then boycot the place in future.

Ive had times like this and always ends in tears and then you wish you just payed the damn thing.

Also seems strange to me-tesco would give you a ticket if you were shopping in their store for more than 3 hours. Insane.
 
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Good luck with what ever way you decide to "play this"
The only bit of advice I can offer is make sure that all you details are correct
on the notice they sent you
I was parked for a brief period of time legally as it happens ( long story)
but an r'sole from NCP decided that I wasn't.
( he must have been hiding somewhere as the 6 minutes that I was supposed to be there was actually about 2 minutes)
He was in such a rush to get the ticket on my screen
that he got the index number wrong :lol:
 
By all means go to the C.A.B. but don't waste your time going to the police. This is a civil matter. The police will not be interested in your plight. Good luck with your situation and don't let it get out of proportion. If I were you I would send the company a letter by registered post disputing the times, stating that you will not pay any 'fine' and that as far as you are concerned that is the end of the matter.
 
Just to throw another option into the mix. Pay the fine and then tell Tesco's you won't be shopping there any more - they might stump up the £40 in vouchers...
 
:agree:

I'd pay up then I would take the issue up with Tesco. If you are anything like us as a household you'll be spending a couple of hundred pounds a month with them. Tell Tesco if they dont get a resolution you and your friends will be shopping at Asda.

The math is easy for Tesco...write off £40 "fine" or loose £100's of business. No brainer
 
I say don't pay up.

The position you're in, I would write back and ask to see copies of the calibration certificates for the devices as there is no way she could have been there at those exact times, and you will be willing to test it in court, unless they can prove that the sensors have been independently calibrated and verified.
 
Notts_Dave said:
Tell Tesco if they dont get a resolution you and your friends will be shopping at Asda.
Click to expand...

Asda customer services sucks and they announced similar draconian parking measures at all of their stores recently. I'm still waiting, some 6 weeks later, for a reply from them about a complaint regarding the advertised "quality" of their cheescake.

There's always Morrison's or Sainsbury's...
 
By Asda i actually ment one of thier close (geographically local) competitors. And actually go in face to face and speak with some one. If its one thing worst than bad publicity they hate it's someone actually in store complaining. Other customers hear whats going on and that is bad. Then you dont have to wait for replies. Get the manager out of his office and dont leave till you are happy. He has better things to do and will i am sure acknowledge your point.
 
Justice prevails!

We (as a family - complete with cute baby in pram ;) ) went into Tesco this afternoon.

I had done my homework and was armed with copies of our original appeal letter, the ticketing company reply letter and a stack of complaints about said car park - which I had printed out from the local newspaper's website.

I asked for the top boss of customer services and was met by one very helpfuly fella!

I presented him with my 'evidence', and informed him that the sensor timings were 'way out' and that the vehicle could not possibly have been in the space on the time stated.

He immediately agreed with us and informed me that in fact Tesco's Altrincham have now asked the ticket agency to STOP ticketing people - as they have had a string of complaints about the sensor timings. (The sensors seemingly sometimes do not reset themselves after one vehicle leaves and another occupies the parking bay).

He took our details, the reference number of the offence and my car reg.

He then informed us that he himself would contact the ticketing agency and that Tesco's could 'wipe it off their system'. Although this differed to what my wife was originally told as Tesco's claimed it was 'nowt to do with them!'.

Either way, the customer service manager gave us his name and signed my hastily written record of events to say that we don't need to pay anything!

We were happy with this outcome and shall continue shopping there!!!

A big thank you to everyone for their advice ... and those of you who said pay up, it's less hassle ... sometimes it pays to fight the system and argue your case!!!

Cheers again all.

One very happy (and happier wife)

Anth. :)
 
Thats another notch on the bedpost of good customer service!
Excellent result Anth, pleased for ya :)

In my experience of scouring the net about these PPC's, its rare that the company gets involved, they just do what they told your wife, say it's nothing to do with them.

So good outcome!

Keep everything until you get it in writing though, just incase :p
 
Result! :thumbs:
Congrats all round and a :thumbs: for the manager concerned
 
Result! Pleased as punch for you :thumbs:

How gay did that sound? :D
 
/drunk Rachel

"I am doin' good baby, how you doin'?" :naughty:

/drunk Rachel

:D
 
:lol: Such a classic :D

(Ive dragged this thread off topic enough now...lol)
 
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