It's Time to Go Off Camera - Tips

J

jpwild

Suspended / Banned
Messages
750
Edit My Images
No
I have a Canon 5d MK II and a 580EX II and love the set up. However, it's time for me to use my flash more off camera than I currently do, but need a few pointers on gear that wont destroy my bank account.

I'd like to shoot people or things outdoors and a little indoors. Not too interested in proper lights or backdrops.

I also have Yongnuo receiver / transmitter for off camera flash and a Lastolite 3 meter cord for metering functionality should I want that. Obviously, the cord is not the perfect solution, but I will never be far away from either camera or flash gun set up so I wont be a 100 feet or meters away.

What I'd like is advice or recommendations on:
Umbrellas
Flash gun stands
A Second flash gun perhaps a Nissin.
Any other things I am missing.

I am also under the impression the if I got two pocket wizards II's then I would not get the ETTL functionality, so if I am happy with the Yongnuos then there's little point in getting Pocket wizards for the type of shooting I want. As I said I wont ever be that far away from the flash guns or camera.

If I kept the Yongnuo set up or used the Lastolite cord to the Canon 580EX II, could the Canon 580EX II command or link up to the second flash gun i.e a Nissin and fire that?

So basically I want to have a two flash gun set up with flash stands and umbrellas perhaps. I will either use tripod or hand hold the camera.
 

DSC_6346 by G_pixx, on Flickr

I went for the cheapers stands (£10) and umbrellas (£5) from Amazon... they work very well! The hotshoe stand/umbrella clamps were about £10 also, I cant remember what they were called but this is my example of my startup set!

I'm hapopy to chat about it until the cows come home!!!!:thumbs:

It got my this image in minutes...


20110827-DSC_6888-Edit.jpg by G_pixx, on Flickr
 
I would also add that it may be simpler to just purchase a second receiver to attach to your second speedlight! This way, its easy to get the flashes just to fire in time and save the money on a more expensive flash...I opted for my Nissins as I wanted the capability of on camera flash control, but for off camera, you could go for any old manually controlled flash!
 
A pair of Konig stands, a couple of umbrella adapters (and a couple of cheap umbrellas!), a set of RF602 triggers and a cheap YongNuo (not Nissin as they can have "issues" with some triggers) flash and you're good to go...
 
Will have a look at those thanks.

I do have the RF02 1 trigger and 1 receiver, and I understand the limitations of them and how I can have the trigger on camera and each flash have a receiver and all in M mode.

However, would the Nissin or Yongnuo flash guns work in slave mode ETTL with a Master 580 EX II - all off camera? Or would the slave work in manual mode only? Hope that makes sense.

I would like to use the 580EX II off camera but with a Lastolite 3 meter cord. I do have a Yongnuo cord, but it's coiled and pretty much useless because of that.
 
jpwild said:
Will have a look at those thanks.

I do have the RF02 1 trigger and 1 receiver, and I understand the limitations of them and how I can have the trigger on camera and each flash have a receiver and all in M mode.

However, would the Nissin or Yongnuo flash guns work in slave mode ETTL with a Master 580 EX II - all off camera? Or would the slave work in manual mode only? Hope that makes sense.

I would like to use the 580EX II off camera but with a Lastolite 3 meter cord. I do have a Yongnuo cord, but it's coiled and pretty much useless because of that.
Click to expand...

Once you get into multi off camera You're far better off in manual mode, learning how to compose and expose just how you would like IMO...
 
All very interesting. Not sure if I want reflective or a shoot though umbrella, but that Konig stand looks excellent for just a flash gun and umbrella.

You're very right, I would mostly likely be better off using them in manual mode. I might get the stand and umbrella and use just the 580EX II at first before moving on to a second flash set up.

That would not be to bad either as I wont need an extra trigger as hopefully whatever flash I chose would be slaved to the 580EX II.

How does your clamp / holder perform?
 
The holder works very well... Obviously it's not going to hold alo of weightt, but works fine for me, cheap and small... You could get a manfrotto this and that, but for a starter set it's perfect...

Reflective umbrellas are not that more expensive at the bottom end too!

Another thing to start considering is making up some modifiers with cereal box cardboard covered with gaffa tape... I've made some snoots, going to make a couple of grids and just some flat bits to mask the background if you're looking for the arty total black background!! Look on my flickr, the glass of water was again a 5 minute rig...
 
I've got a Lumiquest Promax system, but not used it that much. Need to use it more to see if I actually like it. However, I do like idea of maxing ones myself like you suggested.
 
Konig stands are great value for money
I think the latest Nissin flash units are TTL (on Nikon at least, and CLS) - I'm getting one
Yongnuo sync cord is fine (the bay)
Rosco gels under a tenner on the bay
I got some Westcott umbrellas from Amazon, but cheap ones will do
For indoors, I can recommend the Lencarta background support system
I got a 60cm lightbox under forty notes delivered from the bay (cotswoldphoto)
Calumet tilt heads are nice (very much like the Manfrotto, but cheaper)

All this stuff is relatively cheap, and produces great results.
 
What size brollie? 80Cm or 100cm? Is there much difference?

This is what I am thinking of getting:

Adapter:http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/eng/product/calumet_umbrella_adapter_with_hot_shoe/mf6829 or althernative from Ebay as recomended by Flash.

Flash stand: The ones of Amazon - Konig range.

Just need to decide on brollie. I will be shooting though I think, but not sure if I should also get one that has a black part to it for reflective uses, and also not sure what size to get.
 
Last edited:
I keep thinking about this issue and continuing to look at various products. I don't want to run before I can walk.Obviously, I want any lighting option to be portable, so not needing any head lamps as I don't even have a studio and can't justify the costs of all that and portable battery etc.

So I defiantly want the umbrella route. I think soft boxes are a bit to big for portable use in my own view, but each to their own. I will go for multiple flash gun set-up.

Does anyone have any experience with Kood umbrellas from Premier Ink? Much cheaper than Westcott, and I don't want a cheap ebay one - I'd rather get it right first time around.

I defiantly want a shoot through, but not sure if I should get the Westcott with the black cover on, or get two umbrellas - 1 shoot through and 1 silver or white. I'm not sure what the second should be.

I defiantly will go with the Konig stands to start off with, and if I need upgrade in future then so be it. For under a tenner surely they should be okay providing I keep an eye on them.

I am also thinking about gels. I've read Roscoe are pretty good and come in sets on ebay, but not to sure how to attach them to the camera and are they long lasting? Seem so cheap on ebay to get a set of colours for a tenner.

I will either get a Ettl Lastolite cord or a additional RF602 Receiver for a additional flash gun, which brings me on to my next question. As FIP stated the Nissin's can have issues with Yongnuo receiver though I am under the impression that the Mark 2 fixes this?

Anyway, the options for a secondary flash I suppose is a Nissin Mark 2 866 or 622, a Yongnuo one or a Canon 430ex II off the bay.

Any specifics on which Yongnuo. I know Cotswoldphoto sell them with a warranty for 12 months at a very good price, but they look to cheap to be true, lol. Would they complement my 580EX II well?


I'd use my 580EX II as the main flash with a secondary flash suttly filling in areas or behind a subject - something like that.
 
Jon - if you want softbox-type lighting but with an umbrella design try the Westcott Apollo. It's a softbox that's based on an umbrella shaft and spines so it packs away neatly. I picked one up from premier ink (with a stand and tilt head) for about £135, which was good value IMO.

To be fair, with umbrellas a lot of branded stuff is identical to the cheapo fleabay stuff so in many cases, buying cheap gets you the same product anyway, AND saves you money. Just make sure you get good tilt head, as crappy ones are a nightmare, especially when they can't even take the weight of a flashgun!! :)

Personally, I would go all the way with wireless triggers. Cords are good, especially TTL ones, but they limit how far away from the lights you can be and are another obstacle in what becomes a crowded environment. 603 triggers are fine.

Secondary flash, get something like an old Nikon SB26 or 28 - the build quality is excellent. However, people seems to really rate the YongNuo ones, especially for the money. If you're flush, get a 430 and be done with it :)

I wouldn't worry too much about which flash does which job; as long as they can both be adjusted manually in relatively small increments and you're not shooting at full power where one may outdo the other, then you'll be fine.
 
Yeah, I am going try to source a second hand RF602 receiver. I have a receiver already and transmitter and work fine. However, I may also get a Lastolite Ettl 3 meter cord if I ever see one on the bay for low price.

Got a little further ordering this later today on Sunday when I am not so tired:

1 x Konig light stand from Amazon
1 x white diffuser umbrella from Jackthehat off ebay
1 x calumet adapter (I know been recomended cheaper, but I want this one)
1 x Rosco gel set from jackthehat off ebay

If I am happy with those I will get a second set of the above.

However, I am still iffy with additional flashguns.

Just done some reading on the : 430ex II, Nissin 622 and 866 and the Yongnuo 560 and 565. I know the Mark 2 versions of the Nissin seem to fix earier problems.

Not to fussed about having an LCD screen, but would like ETTL option with the flash gun and to shoot in manual mode.

However, I am very curious about something and I don't totally understand remote triggering in a multi flash set-up:

Situation 1:

Both flashes off camera (Yongnuo tx on camera), and want to know if the 580EX II can trigger any of the flashes I just listed above. By that I mean 580EX II set to 'master' and the others set to 'slave' - If that's the right line of thinking.

The 580ex II would be on a Yongnuo 602 receiver. Of course, that would lose ETTL and thus have to be manual mode on the flash. However, could that flash gun then trigger the slave flash gun without the need for another Yongnuo receiver? I.e preflash or the IR beam or whatever.

Situation 2:

If the 580EX II was linked to camera via an ETTL Lastolite cord it would then retain ETTL functionality. However, would the slave gun - if it had ETTL - be triggered by a IR or preflash from the 580EX? Also would the slave gun then be ETTL or M.

I hope those two situations made sense.
 
The latter option should work if the additional gun will work using canons's pre flash system. The 580 would act as master so you may need be close to it to make adjustments, unless that can be done in-camera. Never dug deep enough into this system when I shot Canon to give you a positive answer on this one.....

In the first scenario, you need a flashy that has an optical slave built in - SB26, SB800..... as far as I'm aware, none of the canons have this built in. You can get an optical adaptor that fits on the flash foot for a few quid, that'll do the job. It'll all have to be manual though....

I used to do this before I got a reliable trigger system; i'd have an SB28 on-camera set to a low power setting so it really just adds fill, but more importantly, will trigger any other flash that was using an optical slave. Then I'd have my SB26 set to optical and my SB800 set to SU-4 mode (optical).... it wasn't failsafe - bright conditions were sometimes a problem - but in most situations it worked fine.

Overall, I wouldn't worry about a multiple TTL flash set-up. It is limited in range and a more expensive way to get onto OCF. A TTL cord to fire one flash off-camera is fine - I use one now and then - but is limited as to how far away from the camera the flash can be positioned. Manual triggers are cheap, the flashgun that can be used on them are cheaper but still provide enough light, and you are free to move at will and place flashes in places that a TTL system wouldn't reach....
 
Last edited:
Sounds like a Very similar setup I use

2xKonig stands
1x eBay umbrella ~£15 delivered
1x Nissin Di622
Old Yongnuo single trigger

I've also just ordered a Yongnuo YN 460 II to add another flash (no -TTL though) also waiting to buy a twin pair of Yongnuo 603's to replace the older one so I can trigger two flashes at once.

If you want anymore info just ask :)
 
I saw Surrey Gareths response at the top, amazing.

I have been into photography for more years than I can remember, my old kit was Bowens and Interfit, stands, lastolite backgrounds and so on, fifteen years ago, worth £3.5k easily however I now have an almost similar kit to that above, replace the Nikon flash with Metz and Canon.

Total cost Flash, 3 units £800, the rest £50 and that includes Ebay radio triggers.

The results are superb, and I can take it anywhere. I would never buy a complete studio outfit again, Surrey Gareths has it right, still NOT bargain prices but for truly portable go anywhere GOOD flash setup, can't be beaten.
 
Yup ordered the gear so see what happens when it comes. Going to get my hands on an additional Rf602 receiver for additional flash.

Just got to decide what flash to get now.
 
jpwild said:
Yup ordered the gear so see what happens when it comes. Going to get my hands on an additional Rf602 receiver for additional flash.

Just got to decide what flash to get now.
Click to expand...

I can direct you to many a thread where people are VERY upset by Nissins after sales service and Backup, I have used Sunpak since the first Auto Zoom 4000 which I still have after 30 years, I now use the Sunpak PZ42X, Metz 44 AF-1 and Metz 45 CL-4 Digital.

The Sunpak is for my Nikon and the others for my Canons, however, ALL can be used with EITHER when using radio remotes as I do on manual.

Dsc_1272.jpg
 
Think I may go with a Yongnuo of cotswold photo. I don't need Ettl/ttl for a second flash as I want to do that manual, and they do 12 month warranty and worth a punt for the price.

Lastly, is there any point in getting the Canon 50MM - 1.8 II lens?

I have: 17.40, 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 f4 L Is lenses.
 
Yongnuo flashes are ok, a few things to consider:
- if you have a 580ex2 already just get a powerful fully manual YN flash like the 560 which I think is shaped physically exactly like the 580ex2 so your stofens etc will fit both flashes the same way
- TTL and manual flash don't really mix, so you should use the 580ex2 also in manual mode when using it with the YN. Even though the YN has TTL pre flash detection, it just means it won't go off during the pre flash. This means the TTL system is metering the scene without that light and will probably get it very wrong. Go fully manual.

The most versatile setup would be of course the 430ex2 so you could do slaved ETTL if you want.

Re the 50mm lens, depends on what you are shooting..
 
Would be shooting people and maybe objects like vehicles - not moving or anything like that. In conditions at evening, night and maybe day if cloudy.

Thank you for advice. Determined to go M, and use ETTL if flash is on camera for spontonous flash photography.,
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top