is the sports photography industry a dying trade?

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photobeef

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Chris
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just wanted to hear peoples views on this..

basically, ive noticed since the beginning of summer, national newspapers arnt covering events as much, being footy,cricket or rugby.
im getting the impression that unless your at a premiership football match or international match then youve little or no chance of getting any usage. Yet you go to a smaller event, and theres a dozen photographers shooting for agencies.
Just began to cross my mind today, as ive been to a couple of test cricket matches, rugby and football this season already, and not only my stuff isnt getting used, but nothing else seems to be being used.

your views?
thanks
chris
 
How can it be a dying trade.. You say yourself theres a dozen photographers even at smaller events.. We all know theres masses at bigger events..
 
how can they be getting payed though? if no papers are printing anything? just trying to find out what people think, and if its just me not having much luck so far
 
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photobeef said:
how can they be getting payed though, if no papers are printing anything?
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They dont all get paid for that game...couple will.. then at the next game a couple will... the concept is over the season you get enough pics to make it worthwhile. But not from every game... Thats if your agency on spec.. you need to be out all week not just weekends to make proper money when on spec IMHO

Some will be on commision anyway... plus staffers and club togs.. They get paid no matter what

99% of the sports I go to are commision and guaranteed paid.. Not everyone goes on spec for agencies..

But the point is.. theres plenty at it.. so deffo not dying IMHO :) If your not making much then your doing it wrong.. thats not the industry.. its you... Sorry sounds harsh I know.. Not meant to :(.. just dont know how else to explain it :)
 
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KIPAX said:
They dont all get paid for that game...couple will.. then at the next game a couple will... the concept is over the season you get enough pics to make it worthwhile. But not from every game... Thats if your agency on spec.. you need to be out all week not just weekends to make proper money when on spec IMHO

Some will be on commision anyway... plus staffers and club togs.. They get paid no matter what

99% of the sports I go to are commision and guaranteed paid.. Not everyone goes on spec for agencies..

But the point is.. theres plenty at it.. so deffo not dying IMHO :) If your not making much then your doing it wrong.. thats not the industry.. its you... Sorry sounds harsh I know.. Not meant to :(.. just dont know how else to explain it :)
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point taken, i do get footy/rugby commissions most weekend, but i try and do something on a sunday or weeknight, but seems to have less coverage.
cheers
chris
 
What I don't understand is Nationals printing images from agencies on spec and paying for them when most of them have contracts with the big agencies like PA/Getty/Action Images etc. who are also at the event.

I had a pic in a National a few weeks back (sent in through an on spec agency) and the PA tog was sitting beside me at the event. It was a bog standard action shot that he had to have had as well.
Why don't they use his rather than paying more again for mine? Or is it a timing thing as in mine got to the desk faster? Mine was sent in on a Sunday at about 5pm. His would have been about same time but I doubt papers go to print that early??
 
ksapwaff said:
What I don't understand is Nationals printing images from agencies on spec and paying for them when most of them have contracts with the big agencies like PA/Getty/Action Images etc. who are also at the event.

I had a pic in a National a few weeks back (sent in through an on spec agency) and the PA tog was sitting beside me at the event. It was a bog standard action shot that he had to have had as well.
Why don't they use his rather than paying more again for mine? Or is it a timing thing as in mine got to the desk faster? Mine was sent in on a Sunday at about 5pm. His would have been about same time but I doubt papers go to print that early??
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A picture editor could be waiting with copy ready and a set size space waiitng for a pic from the game.. as soon as one comes in and its perfect for his copy... thats it...

If a better one comes in 2 minutes later.... tough.. no matter who its from.. once the page is done its done... hence why speed is important from the tog for the sundays
 
And maybe he didn't include that shot in his final cut.

Interesting question though. I was going to do some maths on the amount of money available to togs at a given game and the number of togs there to see how it all averaged out over a season.

Say at Championship level football that I cover there are 10 togs per match. Out of the12 or so games that weekend, the papers put reports with pics in for 2 of them - often there are none in the broadsheets). Say 10 national papers (??) and £100 per pic, that means an available £2000 to share amongst 120 togs per week which is an average of £17 each.

Not a good earning rate. It's probably even worse than that too I think.

Take into account that main agency togs will get most of the shows or the commissioned togs, leaving not much left for on-spec folks.
 
You would ahve to be pretty good to make a living with on spec agency work.. I dont think Chris asked the question he wanted to ask.. Sports photogprahy is thriving IMHO but only if you have the right angle..

I would say its going down hill for on spec agency work..Look at last monday.. getty covering every non league conference game..then covering every paint pot trophy game... both areas are very low on most pic editors list yet they grabbed every game.
 
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Tobers said:
And maybe he didn't include that shot in his final cut.

Interesting question though. I was going to do some maths on the amount of money available to togs at a given game and the number of togs there to see how it all averaged out over a season.

Say at Championship level football that I cover there are 10 togs per match. Out of the12 or so games that weekend, the papers put reports with pics in for 2 of them - often there are none in the broadsheets). Say 10 national papers (??) and £100 per pic, that means an available £2000 to share amongst 120 togs per week which is an average of £17 each.

Not a good earning rate. It's probably even worse than that too I think.

Take into account that main agency togs will get most of the shows or the commissioned togs, leaving not much left for on-spec folks.
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thats what im thinking...theres alot of photographers about, and not much coverage. so you really need something that no one else has, and something the papers need to add to a story.
 
photobeef said:
just wanted to hear peoples views on this..

basically, ive noticed since the beginning of summer, national newspapers arnt covering events as much, being footy,cricket or rugby.
im getting the impression that unless your at a premiership football match or international match then youve little or no chance of getting any usage. Yet you go to a smaller event, and theres a dozen photographers shooting for agencies.
Just began to cross my mind today, as ive been to a couple of test cricket matches, rugby and football this season already, and not only my stuff isnt getting used, but nothing else seems to be being used.

your views?
thanks
chris
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I don't think its a dying trade at all Chris, what you need to remember is that all of the national papers will have an account with one or more of Getty,Action Images, PA,AFP

You need to have something different to them and take a risk when they are at a game. Thats why i always scan the list when i sign in to see who's there, if one of the big three are there either sit the opposite side to them or t'other end of the pitch.

As an example, the Burnley Vs Leicester match. I cleared off down to the other end 2nd half as everyone else decided to stay and cover Leicester, you have to give yourself every advantage you can over the competition

If anything i would say Premier League and International games will be far harder to get usage than for Championship, League 1/2.

Test matches are always going to be tough as they are saturated by the big agencies, and unless its something like the Ashes or you get Cheeky Rascals doing something :naughty: there isn't much coverage.

Rugby league has very little coverage in the nationals so is even harder to get a usage from.

Rugby union has a little more (being a southern dominated sport with southern based national papers)

I average a usage every 3 games at the moment from Championship and the occasional League 1/2 game.
 
photobeef said:
thats what im thinking...theres alot of photographers about, and not much coverage. so you really need something that no one else has, and something the papers need to add to a story.
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That's a very good analysis. It's so easy to get dragged into the "scrum" of togs getting the trophy presentation shot for example. As everyone is getting that, you know that unless you're with a big agency it's not really worth anything to you other than having the nice pic. You've got to try and get a different angle or a shot that portrays the emotion or captures the story, that none of the other togs happen to notice. This is hard to do!

I was kicking myself after the trophy presentation at the women's rugby world cup final on Sunday. I got sucked in, got a super central spot for the presentation & champers, but should have ignored it all and gone around the side where I'd have been able to take a quality shot of the dejected England players watching the NZ players getting the glory - a much better story of the game than the "stock" pics that I got. A lesson for next time.

Rovers_Andy said:
Thats why i always scan the list when i sign in to see who's there, if one of the big three are there either sit the opposite side to them or t'other end of the pitch.
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That's a good strategy that I use myself. See who's there and if it's any of the big agencies, go and sit somewhere else and see what you get.

I think what we've ascertained here is that the big agencies are gradually closing in, and the on-spec agencies/freelancers are being squeezed out.
 
Tobers said:
I think what we've ascertained here is that the big agencies are gradually closing in, and the on-spec agencies/freelancers are being squeezed out.
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Interesting discussion. So, just how do you go about getting to work for the BIG agencies? Portfolio, Luck, Sheer doggedness?
 
I only attend games on comission, some games im at there 8, 10, 12 togs there and i know no more than 3 have an outlet for their work

i beleive the RFL are trying to cut down on the number of accredited togs next time round to cut this down, this is partly to a few full time moaners who constantly complain about "part timers/freelancers" stealing their work,l thing is they could be cutting their own throats so i say let them get on with it.

I will always have an outlet for my work, some of them wont.
 
Rovers_Andy said:
I average a usage every 3 games at the moment from Championship and the occasional League 1/2 game.
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Nowhere near enough to making a living from.. even if you got a usage from every game.. still not enough to make a living from.. So you also need to have a bigger plan.
 
Gary Coyle said:
I only attend games on comission, some games im at there 8, 10, 12 togs there and i know no more than 3 have an outlet for their work.
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90% same for me Gary.. then there are events i do becasue i enjoy it but hope for pic sales from website.. work and hobby :) If it was all work all week I would end up hating it.. If I aint taking pics I am processing them in order of importance... Last on my list for photogrpahy is agency work on spec.. and as I say.. only very local and only if absoloutly nowt else to do..
 
KIPAX said:
Nowhere near enough to making a living from.. even if you got a usage from every game.. still not enough to make a living from.. So you also need to have a bigger plan.
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Yup :agree: to survive solely of spec you would need to be get usage from every game, i don't know of anyone who lives off shooting spec, and most of the full time guys i know are on commission and even then need to top up earnings from other photography areas, though i guess it depends on how much you want to earn, how much your happy with etc
 
Rovers_Andy said:
Yup :agree: to survive solely of spec you would need to be get usage from every game, i don't know of anyone who lives off shooting spec, and most of the full time guys i know are on commission and even then need to top up earnings from other photography areas, though i guess it depends on how much you want to earn, how much your happy with etc
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Spot on... I would say I am on the equivelant of minimum wage...I probably dont make as much as the till lady at ASDA... But I am my own man.. my bills are paid and i aint on the dole :) :)

But I have lots of different photography income streams. Local papers. Local colledge, web sales. private sales. team tour operator work. lots of event work at summer. I have deals that save me lots of money but dont involve me getting cash .. Its up and down but I make Enough to average my wage all yr round..not enough to give the taxman sleepless nights ... In the words of Gloria.. I will Survive ..But only through diversity..
 
If you discount the staffers then the rest are split into three.

1, Freelancers working on contract. These AFAIK are all full time and include agencies & newspapers)

2. Freelancers working either on spec or sometimes with commissions. Not all of these are full time though.

3. P/T freelancers working soley on spec.

Then theres me who now only use games purely as fillers (also because I like doing them).
 
Over the weekend I went to one of the local cricket league games just to have a go and get some shots for a mate, later on in the afternoon I notice a guy standing near the car park with a camera 300/400mm and a 1D from the look of it grabbed a shot of him and it was one of the guys who shoots for the local paper he was only there 20 minutes or so I guess he just goes round to all the local games grabs a few action shots just in case they are used or anything interesting happens in the game they will have a photo to use.

I see the stuff kipax does and its not just football at the weekend he often covers 3 events on one day, kids in the morning league in the afternoon and basketball or ice hockey in the evening and more often than not he will be out somewhere each night during the week.

Back to football there were 5 togs at the last Bolton game behind 1 goal, most congregated at 1 side of the goal and one was on the other side. One of the 4 this side kept moving from the end to the side during the game just to get something different I guess. I can't imagine much interest in Bolton v Birmingham other than the local press or am I wrong? OK we had the Jussi slap so if anyone got that it would probably get some usage nationally. I know there were some at the other end not sure how many though.

I think its a case of there are so many outlets for the images not only national press but local and regional, some have staff or commissions shooting the games, clubs buy for their programs and other publications or have their own shooters probably not due to the expense? There are so many different events out there and different places that will use the images I can't see it ever dying out. Maybe the numbers will thin and the cream will rise to the top and everyone else fall away but. Look at the world cup there were hundreds covering each game, the thing is they went worldwide so the spread was even further.
 
Little John said:
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I can't imagine much interest in Bolton v Birmingham other than the local press or am I wrong?
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Its a prem game so will get some coverage in most nationals(proberbly broad sheets may be hit and miss). Not as great as top four but certainly one image will be used and maybe more for regional and local.
 
Little John said:
OK we had the Jussi slap so if anyone got that it would probably get some usage nationally. I know there were some at the other end not sure how many though.
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snapzz said:
Its a prem game so will get some coverage in most nationals(proberbly broad sheets may be hit and miss). Not as great as top four but certainly one image will be used and maybe more for regional and local.
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There was a good bit of the Jussi slap, I was at the wrong end :bang:
 
KIPAX said:
Asked and Answered in one post :)
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Oh, blast! :bonk:
I'll just have to keep trying for the 'magic' shot(s)
I don't think I have enough years left!
 
You get the top 4 v Bolton and there is very little room left on the track for photographers behind the goals. When its like that then you do wonder how many of them will make anything from the afternoons work.
 
Another point worth mentioning is stock shots. Some agencies are now asking for stock of certain players for demand by overseas publications. There is also the demand by Fanzines (dont pay much) and I've even had pics used by Nuts Magazine!

As I mentioned earlier nationals are very much regional so if a northern team is playing a southern team maybe nothing used "up norf" but possibly something used by the southern editions.
 
That is very true, the number of times you see japanese or korean press when a team has a player from that country is increcible, they go nuts for anything to do with their players always hanging around out side the entrances waiting for their country's players to come out.
 
snapzz said:
Another point worth mentioning is stock shots. Some agencies are now asking for stock of certain players for demand by overseas publications. There is also the demand by Fanzines (dont pay much) and I've even had pics used by Nuts Magazine!

As I mentioned earlier nationals are very much regional so if a northern team is playing a southern team maybe nothing used "up norf" but possibly something used by the southern editions.
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Your right there i had a shot published from Blackpool Vs WBA in the Daily Star that was in the southern edition but not the Northern one

Also starting to shoot more stock now as i'm beginning to get usage from it :)
 
To answer the original question, the only way sports photography could become a dying art is if more clubs in what ever sport take the same stance as Southamton Football club. Where they only use there own photographers and charge the papers a lot of money to use them.
I go to watch some Prem league football and there are so many photographers there its unreal but when you go and watch league 1 or 2 football, which I watch a lot of, there is only 2 or 3 photographers there.
I this find sad as I am a very keen sports photographer and would love to take pictures of that level but as I'm young (just left school) dont have money pooring out my ears, meaning I have limited kit, and not many contacts (massivly important in photography i feel) I cant shoot even shoot league 1 or 2 football. I dont have a licence and the limited kit means the quality would be a little bit rubbish! Im sure im not the only person in this situation.
But the orignal question asked was, 'is sports photography a dying art?' And looking at other peoples comments, no it isnt dying but its not very lucrative and its very difficult to shoot the top level!
 
Yep - that's about it. It's a bit like golf or tennis (or any other big-time sport) - loads of people love doing it, but very few make any money from it.

I guess if you think of it in those terms, it starts to make sense. If I'm playing against Federer, I might get the odd point (a usage in the national press) but I'll lose the match to much more powerful opposition (the big agencies). I'll love the experience though.
 
So really all is not lost if you know what and who to shoot and for what reason, plus a bit of luck and you could be getting regular usage. Just watch out for those main agencies and try for something different!

Is it ok to sit behind the goal all game and get all the goals but but no usage? if you do your homework and learn players cele runs you may just beat the big boys especially if they miss the goal shot.:thumbs:

But we know this already ............................ dont we?
 
At most big games your firced to sit behind the goals..
 
snapzz said:
Another point worth mentioning is stock shots. Some agencies are now asking for stock of certain players for demand by overseas publications. There is also the demand by Fanzines (dont pay much) and I've even had pics used by Nuts Magazine!

As I mentioned earlier nationals are very much regional so if a northern team is playing a southern team maybe nothing used "up norf" but possibly something used by the southern editions.
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You and me both Graham!! (Probably for the same agency!) That's right...my picture's been in Nuts!
 
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