is my flash broke?
- Thread starter KIPAX
- Start date
sk66
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 9,557
- Name
- Steven
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Camera/ETTL isn't all that complicated or all that smart really. The camera behaves essentially the same as it would without flash.
In P mode it uses whatever it thinks are optimal settings based on it's metering. What it will think is optimal is hard to know because it uses some kind of logic curve (it's probably in the manual, but it's not easy to understand/remember). When it knows it has a flash on (ETTL) it knows it can add as much light as needed and can choose "more optimal" camera settings and use more flash. It biases towards using more flash which is why it is considered to be using the flash as primary.
P mode is possibly the "smartest" in regard to flash. But it is "smarter" than I am and I don't know exactly what it is going to do or why. That means I don't know what the result will be and therefore I'm not in control.
In A/AV and S/Tv modes the camera behaves the same as it would otherwise. It will use auto ISO the same as it would w/o flash. In these modes the camera isn't biasing it's settings which is why it is considered to be using flash for fill. (in bright situations modern cameras will bias towards underexposure when it knows flash will be added).
In M the camera does what you tell it... and will use auto ISO as needed to make a "correct" exposure the same as it would otherwise.
So, the camera chooses it's settings based upon it's metering mode and what's available to it. It then does pre-flash metering and sets the flash output based upon something of a smart matrix pattern with a CW bias. The flash metering does not talk to the camera metering, they can be of different metering patterns/priorities and be looking at different things. The only interaction they have is that the flash metering occurs after the camera settings are set.
This is why I primarily use A/Av mode, a mode I'm very used to/fluent with; I know what settings the camera will choose/adjust and in what order. I use CW metering so that we (the camera, flash, and I) are all thinking about the exposure in about the same way. And it's also why I default to -1FEC (because the camera doesn't know or care that flash is being added in these modes).
TBH, there is very little technical information about what is going on, how or why. This is just my understanding based on some technical information and experience with Nikon TTL. (there are some minor differences in how Canon's behave. I.e. CEC/FEC, and FEC in manual mode)
I should probably note that for modern Nikons the popup flash automatically goes into BL mode; and Nikon Speedlights have BL(back lighting) mode which can be enabled/used w/ any camera mode. When in BL mode the flash exposure metering *IS* considered in the auto selection of camera settings. The camera settings are adjusted after the flash metering and may not (probably won't) match what you see in the viewfinder. I'm unaware of a Canon equivalent behavior, but there might be.
I should probably also note that this is all for "active" TTL work. If in the studio (or similar) I will primarily use full manual everything when lighting.
Last edited:
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
I did clean and skrew down tight but to be fair the shoe not being metal is worn and grovved... probably better all round wiht the new flash as the connection seems to be the problem all things considered.. the 550ex is now on a shelf getting dusty
HoppyUK
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 23,200
- Name
- Richard
- Edit My Images
- No
This is true!
Your description of Canons in Av is not how they work generally at default* setting, and there are other options. Also, not all Canons are the same in relation to auto-ISO, and exposure algorithms vary with different models too.
*In Av, shutter speed floats down from x-sync as far as it needs, and switches in and out of HSS (if enabled) as necessary.
sk66
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 9,557
- Name
- Steven
- Edit My Images
- Yes
When I said "limits SS to x-sync" I meant max. But I removed that from my post because I was wrong. My Nikons do the same as you've described (just checked) in both A(Av) and S(Tv) modes.
I'm guessing I had that wrong because I usually have auto ISO enabled or because I don't tend to use HSS much at all.
HoppyUK
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 23,200
- Name
- Richard
- Edit My Images
- No
Some time ago, I was party to a similar debate on PTON. It was very confusing as everyone was getting different answers with apparently similar equipment, ie Canon cameras and EX flashes. But that in itself was interesting - different cameras behave differently, and when you throw other variables into the mix (evaluative/matrix, AF point/s, distance info, face recognition etc) it all gets horrendously complicated and very hard to unravel.
But I don't worry about any of that - not important. I just check the LCD image/histogram/blinkies and work around that, simply adjusting ambient exposure with shutter speed (compensation on the camera) and flash exposure with power output (compensation on the gun). I'm usually in Av with centre-weighted/average flash metering and usually leave ambient metering on evaluative. This usually gets me a decent exposure that I can then tweak easily. If the background lighting is consistent, I might lock that in manual (one less thing to worry about) and let the TTL sort out the variable foreground flash exposure.
Something else I like to do first if there's time, is take a test shot with the flash in manual at 1/4 power or 1/8 power and if poss adjust camera settings around that to get a decent balance. There's no other way of knowing how much light the flash is actually putting out in TTL, so armed with that info I know that in TTL I've got a couple of stops of flash power in reserve, say if I need to move back for a larger group, or whack in a bit of bounce or whatever. In a fast-moving social situation, I like to have all the technical stuff as pre-sorted as possible, to better concentrate on the subject.
sk66
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 9,557
- Name
- Steven
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Yeah, I always refer to manual (flash/camera) as my "safe mode." When something is happening I can't figure out I'll punt to full manual. I'm fluent enough with adjusting camera/flash and the inverse square that I can shoot an event in full manual (well, w/in 1 stop
).You have a choice in this!!??
It's always best to set yourself with some leeway either side, regardless of the mode being used/situation. I'll usually set a higher ISO (allowable if auto) to give me more leeway/range and lower battery consumption (ISO noise is less significant if well lit). I'll preset like you do if working w/ manual flash or fixed ISO.
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
On the 1dx there are custom control just for the flash.. I ahve searched the manual and cant find any reference to cfn 12.. this seems to ask if I want recycle power to be joint internal and external or just external... which seems obvious.. if I set to external only then everytime the flash recycles it will use the external (quantum)pack and the internal batteries will then last longer.. like i say seems obvious but would be nice to se eit inw riting..
however i cant tell if its using the external power supply at all.. i would have thought recycle time would speed up .. seems the same...
however i cant tell if its using the external power supply at all.. i would have thought recycle time would speed up .. seems the same...
Phil V
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 26,303
- Name
- Phil
- Edit My Images
- No
Would this only work on 600 flashes, I can't see how the 1dx could make an older flash do this if the flash wasn't designed to initially?
You should be able to see the recycle time difference if you use Manual full power flashes.
admirable
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 11,612
- Name
- Jim
- Edit My Images
- Yes
On my 1DX with the Canon 600 and a Canon CP-E4 goto Menu/shoot3/external speedlite control/ Flash Cfn Settings/ 12
Options are
0 = External and internal power
1 = External power only
Please note: you need to always have batteries in the flash for the external power to work and also to 'see' the CF 12 on screen
Options are
0 = External and internal power
1 = External power only
Please note: you need to always have batteries in the flash for the external power to work and also to 'see' the CF 12 on screen
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
But thats what I ma saying.. thats exactly what I ahve done
what I was saying was theres no explanation to this function that i can find in the manual and I wondered if it works for me as it doesnt seem different
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
sorry didnt quite follow.. wasnt designed to do what? it has the connection for external power..
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
I have aother 1dx 580II question please ...I set manual 1/60 f8 and auto iso it never goes above iso 400 ? if I set manual same setting but set the iso to 1600 i get perfectly good pic and this would mean less power from the flash , quicker recycle times.... is that correct or daft.. or is the diff between 800 and 600 not worth it?
I am at a job on friday taking a lot of flash pics indoors for a presentation..
...I set manual 1/60 f8 and auto iso it never goes above iso 400 ? if I set manual same setting but set the iso to 1600 i get perfectly good pic and this would mean less power from the flash , quicker recycle times.... is that correct or daft.. or is the diff between 800 and 600 not worth it?I am at a job on friday taking a lot of flash pics indoors for a presentation..
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
Phil V
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 26,303
- Name
- Phil
- Edit My Images
- No
Designed to have the choice of how to utilise the power pack. IIRC my flashes dont have the option and the cameras don't have the function. So I'm wondering if the function came in with the 600ex and so is followed by a camera menu.
HoppyUK
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 23,200
- Name
- Richard
- Edit My Images
- No
This feature has been around a while - my old 580EX Mk1 guns have it. Seems rather a good idea to me, though I've never used it. I would set it to use the external pack first, then you know you've always got a back-up ready.
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
have set to external first..
friday is my first proper job wiht the flash.. I ahvent even used it bar testing yet.. the job is a couple of presentation pics and that is what they are paying for.... but its an awards evening.. i will be covering the whole night to get flash experience, learn and the customer gets some extra pics and understand the situation.. its an all win night and I should know a hell of a lot more by the end of it than i do now
friday is my first proper job wiht the flash.. I ahvent even used it bar testing yet.. the job is a couple of presentation pics and that is what they are paying for.... but its an awards evening.. i will be covering the whole night to get flash experience, learn and the customer gets some extra pics and understand the situation.. its an all win night and I should know a hell of a lot more by the end of it than i do now
Phil V
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 26,303
- Name
- Phil
- Edit My Images
- No
No idea if my 550ex has it, and don't have it to hand to check
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
No idea if my 550ex has it, and don't have it to hand to check
IIIRC my 550EX's can use an external pack, but they can't be set to use the external pack preferentially as it still uses the internal batteries in tandem, and if the internals die then it stops functioning even if the external pack is still live.
I could be completely wrong though as since getting the 580 I generally only use the 550s in slave on internals only
Phil V
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 26,303
- Name
- Phil
- Edit My Images
- No
That's what I thought, and I'm not likely to get a 580, as I've built a bag of YN's and I'm likely to get something Atomic (ish) next.
admirable
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 11,612
- Name
- Jim
- Edit My Images
- Yes
This is still the case with the latest Canon flashes.
If you read the exerpt I posted above, the speedlite still needs internal batteries to perform. If the internal batteries are remove the speedlite will not function on external power only.
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
fairy muff I didnt read the whole thread - however i'm not aware that the 550 can be set to charge only from external power (thats not to say it can't though as I CBA to get one out to check - so i'm happy to be corrected if i'm wrong)
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
Well.. I had been using the external powe pack for quicker recycle time on the older flash.. but its not needed on this one so its not going to get used as much.. the paid job I did last week was well recieved by customer.. expectation where low as his mate did it last time with hobby camera...
http://www.kipax.com/gallery/index.php?album=EVENTS/3528
i did use power pack..
however i havent been using it for other stuff BUT I have a questiona and apologies if a no brainer.. how do you knwo when its time to change batteries in the flash ?
http://www.kipax.com/gallery/index.php?album=EVENTS/3528
i did use power pack..
however i havent been using it for other stuff BUT I have a questiona and apologies if a no brainer.. how do you knwo when its time to change batteries in the flash ?
Phil V
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 26,303
- Name
- Phil
- Edit My Images
- No
That^
Decent rechargeables have a really flat power curve, so they don't really slow down they just die. If you're doing a job where that's a possibility, change batteries at a convenient point.
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
that last bit... for example on sun night.. I was in the middle of an ice rink firing off celebration shots and trying to keep upright.. had the flash gone I wouldnt have been able to change batteries quick enouhg.. in fact most of my flash stuff would be change batteries miss the shot
looks like lots of cheap batteries and simply put new set in for each job.. even cheap ones must last one job... is it not a completely simple silly thing to m iss out.. battery indicator..
Phil V
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 26,303
- Name
- Phil
- Edit My Images
- No
If I'm shooting a lot of flash, I'll swap batteries out at each opportunity, that's why I'd never recommend regular batteries, low discharge rechargeables are the easiest to manage.that last bit... for example on sun night.. I was in the middle of an ice rink firing off celebration shots and trying to keep upright.. had the flash gone I wouldnt have been able to change batteries quick enouhg.. in fact most of my flash stuff would be change batteries miss the shot
looks like lots of cheap batteries and simply put new set in for each job.. even cheap ones must last one job... is it not a completely simple silly thing to m iss out.. battery indicator..
HoppyUK
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 23,200
- Name
- Richard
- Edit My Images
- No
Not sure if batteries have been mentioned in this thread, but I'd get a few sets of Eneloop Pro - they're the newer bigger capacity 2550 ones, low-discharge as Phil says. I use the older 1900 ones and they're excellent. Here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sanyo-eneloop-HR-3UWXB-Technology-Electronics/dp/B00GRVP63W/ref=sr_1_8?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1424265261&sr=1-8&keywords=eneloop aa
Suggest charge them up, then fire off ten full power flashes at one every ten seconds, then wait one minute (don't want to cook the gun) and fire off another ten. Repeat until batteries give out, then you'll know exactly what your minimum shots capacity is. Chances are in real life the gun will be way under full power if you're using it direct and you'll get many times more flashes, but if you're bouncing or at some range, or using HSS, then that works the flash very hard.
Edit: as Phil says, the time to change batteries is whenever you have a few spare moments! I use those little plastic boxes that come in different colours to help keep track of things.
Suggest charge them up, then fire off ten full power flashes at one every ten seconds, then wait one minute (don't want to cook the gun) and fire off another ten. Repeat until batteries give out, then you'll know exactly what your minimum shots capacity is. Chances are in real life the gun will be way under full power if you're using it direct and you'll get many times more flashes, but if you're bouncing or at some range, or using HSS, then that works the flash very hard.
Edit: as Phil says, the time to change batteries is whenever you have a few spare moments! I use those little plastic boxes that come in different colours to help keep track of things.
Last edited:
OP
- Messages
- 21,370
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
I ahve been using normall AA batteries and for what little flash needs I ahve these have been pefect.. however I just ordered 4 eneloop rechargeables..
I ahve been setting my flash to manual everyhting and letting the flash decide how much output.. if I use manual and the iso on auto its always 400 and never changes
My biggest problem is that when shooting a team celebration shot using flash and they jump about.. its not capturing everyone.. there will be an odd person moving too fast and blurred.. I was setting shutter at 250 as I believed the max..
iso 1600, f6.5 250 shutter
but what about H sync..just tested and its letting me fire at allsorts of shutter speeds over 250?
So Q1 how do i force fill flash and use highest shutter possible Q2 Am I using it right as above..
sorry really am slow with flash.. all quite beyond me really
I ahve been setting my flash to manual everyhting and letting the flash decide how much output.. if I use manual and the iso on auto its always 400 and never changes
My biggest problem is that when shooting a team celebration shot using flash and they jump about.. its not capturing everyone.. there will be an odd person moving too fast and blurred.. I was setting shutter at 250 as I believed the max..
iso 1600, f6.5 250 shutter
but what about H sync..just tested and its letting me fire at allsorts of shutter speeds over 250?
So Q1 how do i force fill flash and use highest shutter possible Q2 Am I using it right as above..
sorry really am slow with flash.. all quite beyond me really
HoppyUK
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 23,200
- Name
- Richard
- Edit My Images
- No
The eneloops will speed up recycle time.
You mean 'auto everything'? See my post #46, that's how I work, but whatever get's you there.
If there's movement blur, that could be from a longer flash duration at full power. Push the ISO one stop and that will reduce the flash output, cutting the flash duration. If that's the problem, that'll probably be enough.
But it could also be ambient light blurring, and I'm guessing that might be more likely. Reduce ambient light, or increase the flash power to reduce the influence of ambient, say a couple of stops minimum, if you can.
You can use speeds up to the camera's max with high-speed sync, but the problem is it's very wasteful of power, and the amount of light lost doubles with every stop of shutter speed. It's fine for solo portraits, couples, and maybe small groups if you keep things tight, but a whole team is probably asking too much.
So Q1 how do i force fill flash and use highest shutter possible Q2 Am I using it right as above..
sorry really am slow with flash.. all quite beyond me really
See above really, and other replies previously in this thread. Did you get that book the Speedliter's Handbook by Syl Arena? It's not all quite beyond you - you just need to get over any lack of confidence and hang-ups with flash, get a good grip of the fundamentals, and practise. And ask questions, and practise some more, and so on
