Beginner Imposter Syndrome in Beginners

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Adam-G

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I've been doing photography now for just over 2 years. In the scheme of things, I still consider myself a beginner, especially when compared to the vast experience others have.

Now, I recognise I've definitely improved, however I still worry that I'm not good enough to take up space in photographic communities despite them being almost overwhelmingly supportive.

I'm generally a confident person who can take critique and will happily critique my own work/actions with honesty (sometimes veering into hyper-critical which I'm trying to reign in), but I think sometimes in my head I'm expecting myself to be further along the road than I know I am.

It's strange how it gets into my head, I'm not someone who copies trends for 'likes' so it isn't the general social media induced comparison anxiety that is planting these seeds but the nagging feeling that I'm not very good still sits in the back of my mind.

Has anyone else suffered with this? I generally get over it just fine by leaning into it and enjoying the process of photography. Genuinely, the planning of an image, or just getting out and shooting is a sheer joy regardless of the results I get so I'd say being stagnant and scared to shoot is probably a trigger for these thoughts.

If you have gone through this mindset, how do you get yourself out of it and continue your journey?
 
Adam-G said:
If you have gone through this mindset, how do you get yourself out of it and continue your journey?
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That word again! Journey. You are over mythologising it, for a start. It doesn't matter how far along the road you are. If you enjoy it that's all that matters. Sorry, but that word always triggers me.
 
I've been taking photographs since I bought my own camera in 1987! Looking back at the images I took on my first digital (in 2005) and those taken recently I can't say my technique has improved much in that time - which does go to say that a Pentax *ist D was and is still a great little camera. Someone in our club picked up a camera for the first time in 2016 and has already accumulated 10 fellowships (how he finds the time I don't know)... Sometimes I still question my ability but as long as I enjoy the images I have made I do not worry about what others think...
 
This sounds like the "Dunning-Kruger Effect" and you are in the "Valley of Despair".
 
Plain Nev said:
That word again! Journey. You are over mythologising it, for a start. It doesn't matter how far along the road you are. If you enjoy it that's all that matters. Sorry, but that word always triggers me.
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I will add that word to my forum blacklist. Apologies!

Didn't mean it to add a subtext of mythological glitz at all.
 
Craikeybaby said:
This sounds like the "Dunning-Kruger Effect" and you are in the "Valley of Despair".
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That would require me to think I was brilliant in the early stages which definitely didn't happen
 
welshwizard645 said:
I've been taking photographs since I bought my own camera in 1987! Looking back at the images I took on my first digital (in 2005) and those taken recently I can't say my technique has improved much in that time - which does go to say that a Pentax *ist D was and is still a great little camera. Someone in our club picked up a camera for the first time in 2016 and has already accumulated 10 fellowships (how he finds the time I don't know)... Sometimes I still question my ability but as long as I enjoy the images I have made I do not worry about what others think...
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I think that's the key to it. I still hugely enjoy the process and get myself out to shoot, but I know I have the capacity to assign more time and energy to improve so I get angry at myself when I don't see it.
 
One thing I’ve come to appreciate over the years is that you will never improve unless you actually get out there and do it (seems obvious I know). I’ve been into photography ever since my Dad gave me my first camera back in the early eighties, and since then you could say that my enthusiasm for it has gone through numerous peaks and troughs. However, it was only when I started practicing regularly that I began to see a real improvement in what I was doing, and it’s the same for me today. It’s a constant learning curve. Even the most experienced people will take a bad shot (lots of bad shots), but the audience will only ever see the good ones. You could try a photo challenge to encourage more practice; 52 week challenge or 1 photo per day etc.
 
Nikon_Nick said:
One thing I’ve come to appreciate over the years is that you will never improve unless you actually get out there and do it (seems obvious I know). I’ve been into photography ever since my Dad gave me my first camera back in the early eighties, and since then you could say that my enthusiasm for it has gone through numerous peaks and troughs. However, it was only when I started practicing regularly that I began to see a real improvement in what I was doing, and it’s the same for me today. It’s a constant learning curve. Even the most experienced people will take a bad shot (lots of bad shots), but the audience will only ever see the good ones. You could try a photo challenge to encourage more practice; 52 week challenge or 1 photo per day etc.
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Some kind of project could be a really good idea, force me out of my comfort zone a little!

Again, I think much of this is my personality rather than the hobby I've chosen. I'm out shooting 3 or 4 days a week and my self critique cycle definitely hasn't dulled my enthusiasm or desire to take photographs.

I work in a very dry, technical job when I was formerly an educator. So maybe I'm trying to project too much of my desire to learn at pace with a practice that really needs me to slow down and enjoy myself in a more considered way. I'm getting better at that, just need to stop my internal monologue of being disappointed if I don't get something I deem worthy every time I go out.
 
You enjoy it great keep doing it. The results are for you if you like them fantastic if you dont try again change your technique to alter the result and you will grow in confidence.
 
luthy said:
You enjoy it great keep doing it. The results are for you if you like them fantastic if you dont try again change your technique to alter the result and you will grow in confidence.
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That says it all
 
ecoleman said:
It's pretty normal. I still feel like I have no idea what I'm doing sometimes.


View attachment 403636
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That was the graph I was initially thinking of...
Adam-G said:
Some kind of project could be a really good idea, force me out of my comfort zone a little!

Again, I think much of this is my personality rather than the hobby I've chosen. I'm out shooting 3 or 4 days a week and my self critique cycle definitely hasn't dulled my enthusiasm or desire to take photographs.

I work in a very dry, technical job when I was formerly an educator. So maybe I'm trying to project too much of my desire to learn at pace with a practice that really needs me to slow down and enjoy myself in a more considered way. I'm getting better at that, just need to stop my internal monologue of being disappointed if I don't get something I deem worthy every time I go out.
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Have a look at the Competitions, Community Challenges & Inspiration section of the forum there are a few friendly competitions going on - you don't need to be the best photographer to join in, for 7 months this year I scored 0 points.
 
Adam-G said:
I will add that word to my forum blacklist. Apologies!

Didn't mean it to add a subtext of mythological glitz at all.
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No, you don't need to apologise Adam. It's just me that has a problem with it. I didn't mean to discourage you. After all it's horses for courses.
 
Horses for courses again! I am not a horse.




I am a stallion
 
I see dunning-Kruger mentioned - roughly along the same lines is a quote from Ira Glass

Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, and I really wish somebody had told this to me.

All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But it’s like there is this gap. For the first couple years that you’re making stuff, what you’re making isn’t so good. It’s not that great. It’s trying to be good, it has ambition to be good, but it’s not that good.

But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is good enough that you can tell that what you’re making is kind of a disappointment to you. A lot of people never get past that phase. They quit.

Everybody I know who does interesting, creative work they went through years where they had really good taste and they could tell that what they were making wasn’t as good as they wanted it to be. They knew it fell short. Everybody goes through that.

And if you are just starting out or if you are still in this phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Do a huge volume of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week or every month you know you’re going to finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you’re going to catch up and close that gap. And the work you’re making will be as good as your ambitions.

I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It takes awhile. It’s gonna take you a while. It’s normal to take a while. You just have to fight your way through that.

—Ira Glass
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Adam-G said:
Now, I recognise I've definitely improved, however I still worry that I'm not good enough to take up space in photographic communities despite them being almost overwhelmingly supportive.
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Remember that photography is not an Olympic sport, and there's no qualifying standard to reach before you can enter. Possibly the worst thing you can do is to ignore critique if your images could be improved.

There have been a wide range of images posted here, from stunning to very very not stunning, so don't be afraid to post yours.
 
Adam-G said:
Some kind of project could be a really good idea,
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There are quite a few project based things that are on the go that you can join.

The 52 is a great way to get to know other members of the community, and also make sure you're taking pictures every week. As has been said above, the best way to improve is keep taking pictures and this challenge will surely do that. It's theme based which makes creativity tricky for some (me, mostly!) but is a really good way to get involved.

If you're interested in doing a project of your own making, then I'll be kicking off a new zine exchange in the new year (our current one has just finished). You can drop a reply in this thread and I'll tag you when we get the next one going.

There is also a forum for personal projects. It's not so widely visited, but if you want to kick something off on your own time, and on your own terms, it's a great place to get feedback and tips.
 
Reading, watching and learning. And I think a big part of it is getting out and creating the opportunity. Some of my favourite photos are not technically great, what makes them great is the scene and the story, and that is more down to being in the right place at the right time than anything else, I believe.

I can't remember what famous photographer said it, and he was probably exaggerating the number a little, but he said he has to take one million photos to get one great photo.

But yes, you're not the only one with those feelings.

I genuinely find reading and learning helps to dampen those feelings and inspires/motivates me. That goes for any interest, not just photography.
 
About 10-years ago my wife and I went to a lecture by Chris Packham (don’t laugh, it was quite interesting); he said that he has never taken a photograph that he is totally happy with. Now, I’m not trying to say that he is great photographer, but some of the shots I’ve seen of his have been pretty darn good IMHO.

We also did a wildlife photography workshop with Sue Flood and she too is very critical of her own work.

In a similar vein, I don’t know a musician that likes to listen to their own recordings.

So crack on, enjoy the ride.
 
GeeJay57 said:
About 10-years ago my wife and I went to a lecture by Chris Packham (don’t laugh, it was quite interesting); he said that he has never taken a photograph that he is totally happy with. Now, I’m not trying to say that he is great photographer, but some of the shots I’ve seen of his have been pretty darn good IMHO.

We also did a wildlife photography workshop with Sue Flood and she too is very critical of her own work.

In a similar vein, I don’t know a musician that likes to listen to their own recordings.

So crack on, enjoy the ride.
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Definitely not laughing at someone watching a Packham lecture. A truly smart and conscientious fellow in a sea of charlatans and soundbite spewers. Always gotta respect that.

It's good to hear that perspective on self criticism too. If I can wind that in to something more balanced it might be a benefit to me getting better.
 
Adam-G said:
Definitely not laughing at someone watching a Packham lecture. A truly smart and conscientious fellow in a sea of charlatans and soundbite spewers. Always gotta respect that.
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One man's "charlatan and soundbite spewer" is another woman's "truly smart and conscientious fellow" ...and vice versa of course.

The thing about any art is that it's all in the mind of the beholder. It can take years of frustration to realise that there are no rules.
 
Adam-G said:
I've been doing photography now for just over 2 years. In the scheme of things, I still consider myself a beginner, especially when compared to the vast experience others have.

Now, I recognise I've definitely improved, however I still worry that I'm not good enough to take up space in photographic communities despite them being almost overwhelmingly supportive.

I'm generally a confident person who can take critique and will happily critique my own work/actions with honesty (sometimes veering into hyper-critical which I'm trying to reign in), but I think sometimes in my head I'm expecting myself to be further along the road than I know I am.

It's strange how it gets into my head, I'm not someone who copies trends for 'likes' so it isn't the general social media induced comparison anxiety that is planting these seeds but the nagging feeling that I'm not very good still sits in the back of my mind.

Has anyone else suffered with this? I generally get over it just fine by leaning into it and enjoying the process of photography. Genuinely, the planning of an image, or just getting out and shooting is a sheer joy regardless of the results I get so I'd say being stagnant and scared to shoot is probably a trigger for these thoughts.

If you have gone through this mindset, how do you get yourself out of it and continue your journey?
Click to expand...

Don't give up doubting you can do better, that is what drives improvement. The way I think about it is if I am happy with the photos I take that is good enough for me, if others like them as well it is a bonus. You will always see others you may consider better than yours but remember they may have spent a lot more on equipment, ie cameras and lenses and editing suites, than you own anyway to get cetain better photos.
Don't fall into the trap of a camera that is more expensive than the one you own is better, more often than not it is the nose behind it that makes the difference
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
One man's "charlatan and soundbite spewer" is another woman's "truly smart and conscientious fellow" ...and vice versa of course.

The thing about any art is that it's all in the mind of the beholder. It can take years of frustration to realise that there are no rules.
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Genuinely don't understand your inversion of the superfluous Packham comment I made. I was just coming back to the point made by the person I was replying to who stated 'don't laugh' about attending the Packham lecture.

Sometimes knowledge isn't subjective. My point was that Chris Packham has decades of proven experience and knowledge in his field (I have no idea about his photography) and there's no shame in listening to that at all.

We have slipped into a culture of 'my opinion, no matter how unresearched and inexperienced, is as good as your knowledge and expertise' and Packham has born the brunt of this ignorance numerous times, hence my respect for him. Totally unrelated to the photography conversation.

Definitely with you on the point of art. I'm a big film lover and following the "rules" has lead to a trend of films being made to fulfill "content" quotas rather than with any artistic intent. They follow "rules" to make them successful but they're forgotten about the very next week after they've been thrown to the top of the Netflix window and attracted millions of views to justify a sequel.

I think a lot of people are smart enough to know the rules but it takes an artist often to break them.
 
Adam-G said:
...and there's no shame in listening to that at all.
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Of course there isn't.
Adam-G said:
We have slipped into a culture of 'my opinion, no matter how unresearched and inexperienced, is as good as your knowledge and expertise'
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When it comes to any form of art, that is the case.

All that can ever matter is what the viewer, be it you or another, thinks. The idea of applying rules to any form of art is something people have been trying to rid themselves of since the Impressionists started their independent exhibitions in the 1870s.
Adam-G said:
I think a lot of people are smart enough to know the rules but it takes an artist often to break them.
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Whereas I think a lot of people are smart enough to know that there are no rules.
 
realspeed said:
Don't give up doubting you can do better, that is what drives improvement. The way I think about it is if I am happy with the photos I take that is good enough for me, if others like them as well it is a bonus. You will always see others you may consider better than yours but remember they may have spent a lot more on equipment, ie cameras and lenses and editing suites, than you own anyway to get cetain better photos.
Don't fall into the trap of a camera that is more expensive than the one you own is better, more often than not it is the nose behind it that makes the difference
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Great point on the equipment. It's so easy to fall down the YouTube rabbit hole of latest and greatest and think you need a better camera to improve but I soon noticed the majority of the photographers I found myself enjoying the work of, were using older equipment they were comfortable with matched with incredible skills built over time. There are so many photographers who have found a niche of equipment peddling that barely share a photograph and to me, that's surely not what going out and creating is all about.

Not once has the equipment I use been a major constraint on the type of photograph I want to take.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
When it comes to any form of art, that is the case.

All that can ever matter is what the viewer, be it you or another, thinks. The idea of applying rules to any form of art is something people have been trying to rid themselves of since the Impressionists started their independent exhibitions in the 1870s.

Whereas I think a lot of people are smart enough to know that there are no rules.
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I think we're crossing wires in communication here. My comments on Packham are totally separate to the artistic discussion, more a reference to his knowledge in scientific and natural fields.

I am totally with you on the subjectivity of art. Photography is a weird overlap of the technical and the artistic. A photograph can be improperly exposed on a technical level and still be absolutely mind-blowing to the person viewing it. There are sections of viewers who wouldn't see past the technical imperfection. To me that's a shame but it's a deal breaker to others. Neither myself or an opposing view are right and that's the beauty of it.

That's why I made the point about the homogenous nature of a lot of mainstream movie making. The unwillingness to take chances and break rules leads to consistently dull output, but alas, this isn't really the topic I brought forward.
 
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The hardest thing in the world of the internet and "influencers" is to "do you". I always think my stuff isn't good enough and by the standards of likes and competition winners it doesn't stack up but it is my work.
This guy has some things to say about it
 
Adam-G said:
Not once has the equipment I use been a major constraint on the type of photograph I want to take.
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Just to bring a little balance, there are certain photos I take that are very equipment specific, and it wouldn't be easily possible to get the same look with a different lens (camera body much less important). Equipment does matter, but not how much you spend.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Just to bring a little balance, there are certain photos I take that are very equipment specific, and it wouldn't be easily possible to get the same look with a different lens (camera body much less important). Equipment does matter, but not how much you spend.
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I'm lucky to shoot with relatively good equipment but yes, totally agree. I think what I was trying to say is when you've attained enough knowledge to quest for a certain look or outcome and realise you need a certain lens, lighting setup or camera body to get that result, you're not purchasing the equipment with the blind beginners' belief that it will make you an amazing photographer, you're purchasing the correct tool for the job.
 
Adam-G said:
Photography is a weird overlap of the technical and the artistic.
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All art has some physical basis and so there will be a "technical" element to it.

For some viewers, that will be paramount and for others, all but irrelevant.
 
about equipment use. Of course a lot depends on build quality. For example lens wise, I never got on with the Nikon 24-70mm f2.8 lens on my Nikon D810 ,and found the Tamron G2 version so much better. May just be down to a newer lens I don't know
 
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Adam-G said:
...

Not once has the equipment I use been a major constraint on the type of photograph I want to take.
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That will be the case if you already have the relevant camera and lenses to take the photograph you want.
You won't be able to recreate the wide-angle close-up of an animal showing it's head / tongue apparently much larger than everything else if you only had a 600 f/4 lens, and likewise you wouldn't be able to get a frame filling shot of an eagle 50m away with only a 16mm lens.
On the other hand, you can achieve a wide range of things with just a 24-70.
Gear does matter - but only in so far as you need to be aware of what a given set of gear might be able to achieve, and figure out how to get a shot of the subject you are interested in with the gear you have (or what you might need to get if you're looking to take shots your current gear can't achieve).
There are lots of posts I see on FB photography forums where people happily describe modern kit lenses as "garbage", for example - to me that generally says a lot more about the ability (or lack thereof) of the poster, than the quality of the lens!
 
The photographic learning curve is continuous.
Mine has been continually moving along for some 78 years.

However there are actually two curves.
The first involves everything there is to know.
The second is how much you know yourself.

In the mid 1950's I measured my knowledge by the contents of the focal encyclopaedia of photography which I pretty much knew from cover to cover. It contained much historic and out of date information which was interesting but hardly of much daily use. I also had to hand, the knowledge held by fellow photographic students and that of our instructors. As well as that of working photographers we came into contact with.

This mix of practical and theoretical knowledge became the basis on which I could build my own experience.
For the rest of the Film era photography change remarkably little. And involved mostly incremental changes to equipment and materials. Larger changes were happening in the areas of design, graphics, fashion and social change.

Far greater change has happened in the now digital era. this has allowed great advances in editing, manipulation, as well as totally new fields such as stitched panoramas, 360x180 VR photography and drone photography.


However in real terms at a fundamental level very little has changed at all, my basic skill set learned 78 years ago still holds true. Images made then look essentially the same as those made today, and are made with the same basic considerations in mind.

Technology has changed but the nature of light has not. Image capture is still governed by exposure, aperture, shutter speed and iso sensitivity. We have always had to get to grips with how a piece of equipment functions, be that a camera, a flash, an enlarger, a scanner, or a printer. That is the easy part.


The difficult part involves subject, light, seeing, timing, viewpoints and human interactions, pretty much every photograph you take involves consideration of those factors.


Everyone's learning curve is different but inevitably involves thes factors
 
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This is unfortunately the scourge of the internet age. And Andrew proves the point in his response :ROFLMAO:
Adam-G said:
We have slipped into a culture of 'my opinion, no matter how unresearched and inexperienced, is as good as your knowledge and expertise' and Packham has born the brunt of this ignorance numerous times, hence my respect for him.
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AndrewFlannigan said:
When it comes to any form of art, that is the case.
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That is utter nonsense, but then you knew it'd trigger anyone intelligent when you posted it.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
The idea of applying rules to any form of art is something people have been trying to rid themselves of since the Impressionists started their independent exhibitions in the 1870s.
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That's the greatest public misunderstanding of impressionism I've ever witnessed. Impressionism follows the same rules of composition as simpler more photorealistic painting styles, and what they were attempting to convey is just as technically challenging as any more 'detailed' forms.
 
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