NSFW IF you were the judge in this case what would you have done?

LASTOLITE

LASTOLITE

No longer has 4 inches
Suspended / Banned
Messages
2,617
Name
Bill
Edit My Images
Yes
Warning - the video in the link shows the last moments of a mans life before hitting a car so be warned. Its very upsetting actually. This is not sensationalism - I am posting because I think I would have made the same turn under the circumstances.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/video_m...rt_of_road_safety_campaign_1_3758205#cxrecs_s

I feel sorry for the families of both parties in this accident and it dd not have to happen.

I am confused at the judgement made though.

Should I be confused? The speed in the case is undisputed but is not taken into account?
 
Last edited:
having lost my best friend several years ago when a tractor driven by a danish student with no licence pulled out in front of him killing him instantly the video brings back some strong feelings.
However i do wonder if this could have been so easily avoided or at the least not fatal if the bike rider hadnt being doing 97 mph on a road that has a speed limit that varies between 40 and 60 MPH depending what stretch of the road. And due to that speed it would have been very difficult for the driver of the car involved to see or even judge the distance the bike was covering and as such the driver shouldnt have been charged . it says the driver would have had 7 seconds to see the bike. not done the math but if the bike had been travelling at the speed limit i wonder would the collision have been avoided.. tragic accident regardless
 
I am with you completely, the fact every article I have read casually mentions the crazy speed he was doing, but always just brushed off with "While he was travelling above the speed limit the driver admitted to police in interview that he had not seen David, nor a car behind the motorcycle, prior to the collision." seems very odd.

You shouldn't have to expect that a bike coming towards you will be going nearly 100mph. I haven't watched the video more than once, as it isn't pleasant viewing, but it does seem overly harsh to blame the driver, but I guess they must have pretty much held their hands up and said it was 100% their fault, but it does seem very odd.
 
I don't think anyone including his parent are disputing that the speed was a large factor. However the driver simply shouldn't have turned across opposing traffic, the driver of the car had 7 seconds to see the bike (count it, it's a ridiculously long time before making a decision to manoeuvre) and he failed to see the bike or the car following.

Both drivers were in the wrong. I think the speed of the motorcyclist was reflected in the non custodial sentence maybe?
 
If the bike had been travelling at the speed limit, then the driver would have had more than seven seconds to have seen the bike and the car. If he didn't see them in seven seconds, I'd suggest he would never have seen them.
In my opinion, the car driver caused the accident.
 
just to verify . speed limit of 60 mph is 26.8 metres per second. so in 7 seconds the bike at speed limit would have travelled 187 metres

at the speed quoted of 97 mph the bike in 7 seconds would have traveled 303 metres. thats huge difference of 116 metres . so though 7 seconds sounds alot if the bike had been within speed limits it would have given the car at 100+ metres gap to make the turn. that equates to at speed limit a time of 11 seconds ratehr than 7 seconds before impact..
 
Last edited:
neil_g said:
Sorry what do you mean?
Click to expand...

Not sure what the question is there, sorry.

dean messenger said:
having lost my best friend several years ago when a tractor driven by a danish student with no licence pulled out in front of him killing him instantly the video brings back some strong feelings.
However i do wonder if this could have been so easily avoided or at the least not fatal if the bike rider hadnt being doing 97 mph on a road that has a speed limit that varies between 40 and 60 MPH depending what stretch of the road. And due to that speed it would have been very difficult for the driver of the car involved to see or even judge the distance the bike was covering and as such the driver shouldnt have been charged . it says the driver would have had 7 seconds to see the bike. not done the math but if the bike had been travelling at the speed limit i wonder would the collision have been avoided.. tragic accident regardless
Click to expand...

This is almost exactly what I was thinking.

And yes I agree a very brave Mum indeed.
 
Yes Neil......As I look at the figures above, I am wondering if It was me in the situation turning right and I saw a bike 200 metres away I would have made the turn too, I think 200 metres is a long way and gives ample time for me to make a turn across one half of a carriageway - IF on a side road and pulling out to join the road and having to get up to speed that would be different - But I think in the drivers position I would have made the turn too...and I am very aware of bikers...and give them more room than many other motorist. a near miss taught me that.
 
Interesting video.

A few things we need to look at. The driver COULD HAVE BEEN ABLE in theory to have seen the rider for 7 seconds.
But is that really enough time to compute the distance the bike would have traveled in that time? I'd say probably not. So was it showing driver standards below that which should be expected of a reasonably competent driver?
I am surprised he didn't put up a defence that no reasonably competent driver could have mentally computed the distance the bike would have traveled. However, he seems to have pleaded to it, so it matters not.
As for sentence, it was lenient, compare to most that involve prison.
 
Nothing new here,it was on my local news last it didn't show the cash but an longer video of the motorcyclist most of the time he was above the speed limit,also seen overtaking on non overtaking marking in the road.

One way of looking at it at least he didn't kill or injure any one else.
 
Surely reaction times count for the rider as well as the driver ?
If he hadn't been going so fast he could possibly have manoeuvred around the car, it does look like a wide junction
How would I have judged it, very likely 50/50 with both parties taking some blame
 
Certainly is a powerful video... My view is also that both parties are at fault, the biker also had 7 seconds to see the car waiting to turn across his path and I thought that 'experienced' bikers have so little respect for car drivers they always expect them to do the worst, and ride accordingly.

Had the bike been doing 60 and also come off the throttle and covered his brakes on approach he may / would have had time to avoid the collision, or lessen it's effect.

I can't see a heavy or custodial sentence for the driver benefiting anyone here. They have been punished enough having to live with this. Maybe an awareness course, but their recollection would probably be more effective being delivered in such a course.

How many bikers will be out and about today (or maybe next weekend), riding in a similar fashion. I'd suspect pretty much the same number as before this video was released.

If bikers want to ride above the speed limit, book a track day.

Edit...last 2 points equally applicable to car drivers too.
 
Last edited:
Had the bike been observing the speed limit the car would have probably been down that turning and there would have been no accident. Both parties are to blame in equal measure but it was just that, an accident.
 
I ride bikes myself, and I would never hit that sort of speed in danger zones. Just so dangerous speeding, when there is a likelihood of a vehicle or pedestrian veering into your path. I have had that sort of thing happen to me, when I joined a dual carriageway. As I joined the carriageway I saw a car far off in the distance, but he was upon me very very quickly! I estimate he must have been doing something insane like 140mph, the car went screaming past and disappeared into the distance.

As already mentioned, if the bike had slowed down then just maybe he would have not met the car.
 
Not a biker myself but ride a pedal bike a lot and this situation is exactly one of the main dangers cyclists get when an oncoming vehicle is waiting to turn right. The only safe thing to do is to assume they WILL turn in front of you and if they don't then it's a pleasant surprise. I'd certainly slow down well below the speed limit in this type of scenario - in fact passing through any sort of junction where a vehicle might turn across my path I would slow down a bit just in case, when you consider that most accidents happen at junctions.
 
Would the compulsory use of motorcycle headlights at all times improve safety for motorcyclists?
 
sbowler579 said:
Would the compulsory use of motorcycle headlights at all times improve safety for motorcyclists?
Click to expand...

Unlikely I would say. Most do anyway, chances are the rider in question here had his on.

I tend to always have mine on in the car anyway too. As the numbers of vehicles with lights on increases, the relative visibility of a motorbike with lights on reduces.

As many new cars have daytime running lights as standard nowadays they will still be less noticeable.

What would improve safety for bikers is for them to ride with a greater regard for the rules of the road and their own vulnerability.
 
That's a tough one.

I guess a bike overtaking a car on the runup to a junction is going to confuse things too as the first glance would see the biker behind the car.

I've just counted it. There about three seconds between the biker overtaking and the renault starting to turn across his path. That's really not a lot of (enough?) time to see a bike and assess it's speed.

There is no question, the biker is the real reason this accident happened. Sadly him and his family paid the ultimate price for his poor judgement.

Could the car driver had read the situation better in that time? I honestly don't know. Should he be punished? I think taking his licence away was harsh, and I don't think any punishment will come close to what he has to live with now.
 
Last edited:
I used to ride fast bikes... always defensively though and with consideration for the safety of other road users who might have loved ones and kids on board. Riding one handed at 97mph through a junction like this is madness... I feel sympathy for the car driver.
 
RichardtheSane said:
There is no question, the biker is the real reason this accident happened.
Click to expand...

Don't agree with that comment. The crash happened because the car driver turned across the junction. Sure, the riders speed may have made it more difficult for the car driver to see him, but that didn't cause the accident.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Don't agree with that comment. The crash happened because the car driver turned across the junction. Sure, the riders speed may have made it more difficult for the car driver to see him, but that didn't cause the accident.
Click to expand...

Of course it did. If the rider wasn't speeding he wouldn't have been there in the first place.
He was going so damn fast he didn't even have time to think about slowing down.

I find it absolutely disgraceful the the driver of the car was punished.
 
I'm afraid I can't bring myself to watch the video.
My husband who was a keen motorcyclist was very nearly killed outright some 28 years ago. He was travelling home from work at 7.30 am having finished a night shift at the district general hospital. Travelling at 30 mph on a fine September morning (13th) he was hit full on by a young guy driving an old rover car. The car was doing 60 in a 30 limit and overtaking a transit van on the brow of a hill. My husband was thrown 40yds up the road and the bike slid under the van.

The fire services were first on the scene as the bike blew up. My husband who can only remember thinking "oh Sh** was found with his legs up his back. I won't go into the injuries he sustained but he stopped breathing three times whilst in surgery and suffered serious multiple injuries, suffice to say he spent 2 years in hospital, numerous operations and intensive rehabilitation. He was 26 at the time.

Despite being told he would never walk again due to the seriousness of the injuries, he persevered and did walk and carved out a successful career. He was unable to return to his nursing profession.

The driver of the Rover? 6 points and £250 pound fine.

My husband now has had to retire at 54, has widespread osteoarthrirtis and is often wheelchair bound.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Don't agree with that comment. The crash happened because the car driver turned across the junction. Sure, the riders speed may have made it more difficult for the car driver to see him, but that didn't cause the accident.
Click to expand...
Admittedly he hadn't gained much speed but if you watch the motorcyclists right hand and the speedo, he actually starts to accelerate just before he grabs for the brake and you hear him shout.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Don't agree with that comment. The crash happened because the car driver turned across the junction. Sure, the riders speed may have made it more difficult for the car driver to see him, but that didn't cause the accident.
Click to expand...
And had the bike been doing the speed limit they would have missed each other.

Every day we have to make decisions like this and often you think "damn, could have gone there" or "whoops, shouldn't have gone there". Normally this results in nothing more than being later or making someone brake.

At worst the driver made an error if judgement, would u be expecting a bike in that road to be doing 50 or 100? The driver will never forget the impact of that moment and that someone died, that for me is punishment enough.
 
I also think its harsh to judge the driver here. As none of us were in the car at the time, none of us can say beyond doubt what the driver did or didnt see. What IS beyind doubt, is the irresponsible way in which the biker was riding. Im sorry for the families, but you must accept that your actions will have consequences. This guy paid the ultimate price for his irresponsibility.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Don't agree with that comment. The crash happened because the car driver turned across the junction. Sure, the riders speed may have made it more difficult for the car driver to see him, but that didn't cause the accident.
Click to expand...
Had the bike been travelling at the speed limit (37mph slower) and was the same distance from the car when the car started to turn, in all likelihood the car would have had more than enough time to make the turn safely or at the very least the motorcyclist would have had time to think manoeuvre the bike around the back of the car.
 
nilagin said:
Had the bike been travelling at the speed limit (37mph slower) and was the same distance from the car when the car started to turn, in all likelihood the car would have had more than enough time to make the turn safely or at the very least the motorcyclist would have had time to think manoeuvre the bike around the back of the car.
Click to expand...
even 60mph is putting a lot of trust in the turning driver not to be a numpty
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Don't agree with that comment. The crash happened because the car driver turned across the junction. Sure, the riders speed may have made it more difficult for the car driver to see him, but that didn't cause the accident.
Click to expand...

The rider was doing 97 mph and had overtaken a car without crossing the line on the approach to the junction.

The riders speed was the reason this crash happened. Yes, the car pulled across the junction, so technically it was his fault. But you have to look at why the car driver thought it was safe to do this to see the reason.

There simply was not enough time to see the biker and realise how much faster he was travelling compared to the speed limit and other traffic.
 
Also, another observation. The rider had about 3-4 seconds (or ~120 metres) based on when the car started to pull out to brake. He didn't.
Now I'm not a biker so I don't know what choices who ride make, but in a car when I'm approaching a junction I am concious of anyone who might pull out and even if they twitch I am on the brakes ready to anchor up. Would the biker hitting the brakes when the car started turning have made a difference?
 
Some very balanced opinions here that resonate with much of my own. I cant help but think if that was my boy on the bike how devastated I would be to loose him in such a needless way at such a young age.

Maggie52 said:
I'm afraid I can't bring myself to watch the video.
My husband who was a keen motorcyclist was very nearly killed outright some 28 years ago. He was travelling home from work at 7.30 am having finished a night shift at the district general hospital. Travelling at 30 mph on a fine September morning (13th) he was hit full on by a young guy driving an old rover car. The car was doing 60 in a 30 limit and overtaking a transit van on the brow of a hill. My husband was thrown 40yds up the road and the bike slid under the van.

The fire services were first on the scene as the bike blew up. My husband who can only remember thinking "oh Sh** was found with his legs up his back. I won't go into the injuries he sustained but he stopped breathing three times whilst in surgery and suffered serious multiple injuries, suffice to say he spent 2 years in hospital, numerous operations and intensive rehabilitation. He was 26 at the time.

Despite being told he would never walk again due to the seriousness of the injuries, he persevered and did walk and carved out a successful career. He was unable to return to his nursing profession.

The driver of the Rover? 6 points and £250 pound fine.

My husband now has had to retire at 54, has widespread osteoarthrirtis and is often wheelchair bound.
Click to expand...


The real aftermath of reckless driving, Margaret thank you for your post and the account of your husbands experience...

This video has made me far more aware of bikers than I ever have been, often I have thought just how foolish some can be on motorbikes, I will modify my thoughts now to what can I do to minimize my involvement in an accident like this one.


Thank you for the objective views and honest opinions so far, its been very beneficial to me personally - especially Margaret posting that account of her husbands fight after a near fatal incident.

I promised my mum when she was alive I would never buy a motorcycle, I was tempted a few weeks ago to get my license But her voice in my head telling me to promise her was still as strong as ever...
 
LASTOLITE said:
This video has made me far more aware of bikers than I ever have been, often I have thought just how foolish some can be on motorbikes, I will modify my thoughts now to what can I do to minimize my involvement in an accident like this one.
Click to expand...

Of this, I totally agree.

While I know the majority of riders are safe there will always be fools out there. No matter how foolish they are, no-one deserves to die for it. I know I'm quite risk averse when pulling out in front of bikes anyway because it is really hard to judge speed, but this helps to confirm that to do that is right.
 
boliston said:
even 60mph is putting a lot of trust in the turning driver not to be a numpty
Click to expand...
So you have two choices, the correct one would be to proceed with caution, 60mph would certainly have helped but being prepared to brake or take avoiding action would have been sensible.
The wrong choice which the motorcyclist took, was to, not just continue to ride through a junction at 37mph over the speed limit, but from the movement of his right hand, before applying the brake, he chose to try to go even faster. As I said at the same distance but the reduced speed, the driver wouldn't have been the numpty as he would have more than enough time to make the manoeuvre.
 
The driver pleaded guilty and admitted he didn't see the Biker nor the car the biker had overtaken.

The driver caused the collision the speed of the biker caused the fatality
 
overbez said:
I tend to always have mine on in the car anyway too. As the numbers of vehicles with lights on increases, the relative visibility of a motorbike with lights on reduces.

As many new cars have daytime running lights as standard nowadays they will still be less ...
Click to expand...

Sorry there's a lot of difference between a pair of led strip daylight lights on cars to a full headlight(s) on motorbikes, both is size, height and brightness.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top