I am left wondering what the countryside is for ?. Natural England.

[Baloo]

I have been flying model gliders over the cliffs at St Agnes for over 40 years, it is a world famous site for flying model gliders and every year we get visitors from all over the world. Then in February we were informed by the National Trust that we could no longer fly there as in the opinion of Natural England our model gliders might interfere with the seabirds and raptors that might be nesting there. Likewise Hang Gliding and Rock Climbing are now banned.

What amazes me is we have been flying with the Peregrine and Kestrels that there are on the site for several generations of these birds, they often come and join us soaring high above the cliffs.

So we contacted NE to find out what the problem was, apparently one person went up there, saw the models flying and decided to stop it. I sent a freedom of information request to find out if any study had been done on the effects of us flying there and not surprisingly they had nothing relevant. So we have been banned without any evidence in fact I have been able to offer surveys carried out by other model flying clubs that indicate our models do not disturb the birds. I should state that hundreds of people use the area for dog walking mostly off of a lead.

We use an area of about half a mile in total, with three small designated landing areas of about 400 yards square, this is grassland and there are no nesting birds there. The area in which the ban is operating is 11 miles long and there is no reason to suppose that birds are more frequent in any area we do not use.

I have read on this forum of other activities that take place in the countryside, even photographers being accused of disturbing birds and suggestions that cars may be banned from areas of the Lake District.

So I wonder just what will be left of leisure activities in our countryside, hobbies and pastimes that thousands have enjoyed for years suddenly being stopped with nothing bar opinions to back up the bans. Other bans have been suggested on Dartmoor including a ban on kite flying!

No more Spitfires on the cliffs of England!
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jgHV7U]TP52 Snappers Choice by R Hillman, on Flickr[/URL]

 

[munch]

This is what happens when opinions become more important than facts.

 

[arclight]

I have been flying model gliders over the cliffs at St Agnes for over 40 years, it is a world famous site for flying model gliders and every year we get visitors from all over the world. Then in February we were informed by the National Trust that we could no longer fly there as in the opinion of Natural England our model gliders might interfere with the seabirds and raptors that might be nesting there. Likewise Hang Gliding and Rock Climbing are now banned.

What amazes me is we have been flying with the Peregrine and Kestrels that there are on the site for several generations of these birds, they often come and join us soaring high above the cliffs.

So we contacted NE to find out what the problem was, apparently one person went up there, saw the models flying and decided to stop it. I sent a freedom of information request to find out if any study had been done on the effects of us flying there and not surprisingly they had nothing relevant. So we have been banned without any evidence in fact I have been able to offer surveys carried out by other model flying clubs that indicate our models do not disturb the birds. I should state that hundreds of people use the area for dog walking mostly off of a lead.

Odd how NE hang their hat on these excuses when they don't exactly have a sparkling record at protecting raptors from persecution:-

Search Results for “Natural England” – Page 4 – Raptor Persecution UK

raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com

 

[Baloo]

This is what happens when opinions become more important than facts.

Certainly is and we are seeing t more and more in all walks of life, basically innocent until proven has become in my opinion your guilty, now prove your not.

 

[Baloo]

Odd how NE hang their hat on these excuses when they don't exactly have a sparkling record at protecting raptors from persecution:-

Search Results for “Natural England” – Page 4 – Raptor Persecution UK

raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com

We are a soft target, just a bunch of old guys pretending to be biggles!

 

[Baloo]

What is really annoying is we have actually done our bit to make St Agnes a better place, clearing up litter, stopping parties who light fires, politely asking drone pilots not to fly,. bought a weather station for the NCI station there, constantly picking up the plastic bags that dog walkers seam to think can be left on bushes rather than taken home. One of our crew was the first there when a woman tried to drive over the cliff!

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2n8CjhE]Untitled by R Hillman, on Flickr[/URL]

 

[Steelo]

What is really annoying is we have actually done our bit to make St Agnes a better place, clearing up litter, stopping parties who light fires, politely asking drone pilots not to fly,. bought a weather station for the NCI station there, constantly picking up the plastic bags that dog walkers seam to think can be left on bushes rather than taken home. One of our crew was the first there when a woman tried to drive over the cliff!

Untitled by R Hillman, on Flickr[/URL]

May I ask, and I fully agree with you as to why you've posted this thread, I'm just interested in why you feel you can fly your gliders yet ask drone operators not to fly there?

 

[Baloo]

May I ask, and I fully agree with you as to why you've posted this thread, I'm just interested in why you feel you can fly your gliders yet ask drone operators not to fly there?

Motors my friend, we agreed about 30 years a go with the NT that there would be no powered flight, we do not fly even expensive 7m models with back up electric motors. So anyone is welcome to fly a Drone just not a powered one. I used to fly a glider with a Canon Sureshot up there about 35 years ago, long before drones.

Of course a few years a go the NT banned drones from all their land, they may have rescinded that now. I would love to fly a drone up there but it would not be fair.

Edit. I just checked and it is still NT policy that drones are not allowed to fly from their land.

 

[Plain Nev]

Certainly is and we are seeing t more and more in all walks of life, basically innocent until proven has become in my opinion your guilty, now prove your not.

It's ironic really. The very measures they bring in to protect the environment also make it less inclusive. In years to come we may have our environment back. But nobody will be allowed to see it.

 

[Steelo]

Motors my friend, we agreed about 30 years a go with the NT that there would be no powered flight, we do not fly even expensive 7m models with back up electric motors. So anyone is welcome to fly a Drone just not a powered one. I used to fly a glider with a Canon Sureshot up there about 35 years ago, long before drones.

Of course a few years a go the NT banned drones from all their land, they may have rescinded that now. I would love to fly a drone up there but it would not be fair.

Edit. I just checked and it is still NT policy that drones are not allowed to fly from their land.

Ah fair point, it never even crossed my mind, having a bad few days. Thanks for replying

 

[Brentor]

The Dartmoor rule is:

1. No person shall fly a kite or model glider from the access land in such a manner as to give reasonable cause for annoyance to any other person or in such a manner as is likely to startle or disturb stock on the land.

So not an unqualified ban.

 

[Baloo]

The Dartmoor rule is:

1. No person shall fly a kite or model glider from the access land in such a manner as to give reasonable cause for annoyance to any other person or in such a manner as is likely to startle or disturb stock on the land.

So not an unqualified ban.

Is that the proposed new rule?

Edit, just checked that is the rule in place at the moment, the proposed rules are more draconian as I understand it.

 

[David_Mug]

Just another example of the extinction an common sense.

 

[F1.2]

Most companies I have worked for have a person tucked away in a office who dreams
up this sort of thing , I refer to him or her as Mr or Mrs Justify , The need to do this to justify keeping their job.

 

[Baloo]

Most companies I have worked for have a person tucked away in a office who dreams
up this sort of thing , I refer to him or her as Mr or Mrs Justify , The need to do this to justify keeping their job.

I do wonder whether these people actually think of the harm they do to others with their decisions.

 

[Brentor]

Is there any right of appeal against NE’s decision? Do the NT have to comply with the decision/advice? Not something I have considered before.

 

[Cobra]

TBH Over the years I've seen the NT slowly lose the plot. & become very much money orientated

Just out of curiosity, from their web site.

In the 2020/21 financial year (the first year of the coronavirus pandemic), our Director-General, Hilary McGrady, who leads a large and complex national organisation, with an annual income of more than £600 million, and with more than 50,000 volunteers and 10,000 staff, earned a salary of £195,700, but she took a voluntary pay cut of 20% for six months of the year as a result of the pandemic reducing her salary to £176,130.

(The Prime Minister’s earnings ( £161,428.) are made up of £79,496 for his role as Prime Minister, and an additional £81,932 for being an MP.)

 

[sphexx]

I do wonder whether these people actually think of the harm they do to others with their decisions.

It’s another case of ‘what-if-ery’, what if a seabird were disturbed on the nest, in this case. It’s very general currently it’s being used to stop visa-less travel to the U.K. —- what if some are Russian spies, what if … etc etc .

 

[onomatopoeia]

TBH Over the years I've seen the NT slowly lose the plot. & become very much money orientated

Just out of curiosity, from their web site.

In the 2020/21 financial year (the first year of the coronavirus pandemic), our Director-General, Hilary McGrady, who leads a large and complex national organisation, with an annual income of more than £600 million, and with more than 50,000 volunteers and 10,000 staff, earned a salary of £195,700, but she took a voluntary pay cut of 20% for six months of the year as a result of the pandemic reducing her salary to £176,130.

(The Prime Minister’s earnings ( £161,428.) are made up of £79,496 for his role as Prime Minister, and an additional £81,932 for being an MP.)

Which tells you that our politicians are woefully underpaid for the job they do and not anything about the National Trust.

 

[Cobra]

Which tells you that our politicians are woefully underpaid for the job they do

And you think that would improve what they do or how they do it?
Throwing money at an issue is never a solution.

But of course this thread is about the NT not the incompetence of the government

 

[tikkathreebarrel]

Motors my friend, we agreed about 30 years a go with the NT that there would be no powered flight, we do not fly even expensive 7m models with back up electric motors. So anyone is welcome to fly a Drone just not a powered one. I used to fly a glider with a Canon Sureshot up there about 35 years ago, long before drones.

Of course a few years a go the NT banned drones from all their land, they may have rescinded that now. I would love to fly a drone up there but it would not be fair.

Edit. I just checked and it is still NT policy that drones are not allowed to fly from their land.

Unless, of course, the NT is behind a drone flying exercise over its property for "surveying purposes".

 

[gremlin16]

I was sympathetic until you said that you tell drone operators not to fly there (albeit politely). Because as you say, what is the countryside for??? You cannot be selective to suit your means.

 

[sphexx]

I was sympathetic until you said that you tell drone operators not to fly there (albeit politely). Because as you say, what is the countryside for??? You cannot be selective to suit your means.

But he explained that.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Over the years I've been involved with various of these organisations and I've noticed how inward looking and selfish many of the people involved in their management are.

The least bad examples are where there is a rapid turnover of committee members, the worst where people have become fixtures. It's all pretty sad.

 

[TVRTim]

Is that the proposed new rule?

Edit, just checked that is the rule in place at the moment, the proposed rules are more draconian as I understand it.

As far as kites are concerned the proposed bylaw is exactly the same as the existing one so no change there, the amended bylaws are below;

(ii) No person shall launch any model aircraft or drone from the Access Land unless authorised to do so by the owner of the land and the Authority.
(iii) No person shall operate any model aircraft or drone over the Access Land at a height or location that may disturb stock or wildlife or cause a nuisance to another person.

 

[sphexx]

Over the years I've been involved with various of these organisations and I've noticed how inward looking and selfish many of the people involved in their management are.

The least bad examples are where there is a rapid turnover of committee members, the worst where people have become fixtures. It's all pretty sad.

Yes. The problem the well meaning ones are always looking around for ‘improvements’ when leaving things alone may be better. Happens in Parliament too.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

I was sympathetic until you said that you tell drone operators not to fly there (albeit politely). Because as you say, what is the countryside for??? You cannot be selective to suit your means.

By that logic, scramblers should be allowed to ride on mountainbike trails, green lanes etc....

 

[gremlin16]

By that logic, scramblers should be allowed to ride on mountainbike trails, green lanes etc....

Well no, because they cause physical and long lasting damage to the environment. A drone just buzzes about a bit.

 

[Baloo]

I was sympathetic until you said that you tell drone operators not to fly there (albeit politely). Because as you say, what is the countryside for??? You cannot be selective to suit your means.

I do not tell drone operators not to fly there, I ask politely and will explain the agreement we have with the NT, non powered flight is allowed, powered flight is not. If you bring a non powered drone to St Agnes you are welcome to fly it. Thing is that a non powered drone would be classed as a model glider.

I do not respond well to being told what I cannot do, but if someone asks me politely and explains the reasons then more often than not they will get a positive response.
But even if after I have explained all that you insist on flying I am going to try to make your flight as safe as possible by telling you about the terrain, how below the obvious path there is another path hidden that walkers use, where you will get rota and turbulence which can knock your drone out the sky. If you ignore all that and fly dangerously I might start getting annoyed or as two powered model pilots and one drone pilot have done ignore the advice about the rota I will watch as you spiral out of control and smash your model or drone. All three pilots who suffered that fate blamed radio failure because they would not accept what turbulence or rota can do even on what appears to be a calm day. Ninety percent of the model gliders pilots up there are going to tell you the same because it is a dying hobby and most of us have been flying there for many years and have vast experience of the site.

Ok so why is powered flight banned at St Agnes. Remember this is a historic agreement and drones did not exist at the time.

1. Flight envelope.

A powered aircraft, drone or otherwise has a completely different flight envelope to a model glider, model gliders need lift generated by the wind coming up the slope (I am ignoring thermals as you rarely get them coming off the sea) so gliders are flown away from the cliff edge and out towards the sea, that keeps us away from the walkers, the nesting sites, the cars, and the picnic sites. The only time you would fly behind the slope is on a landing approach and you always keep that area clear. Powered aircraft can fly anywhere, they can fly over the nesting sites, low over the paths, over people having picnics, over the cars and behind the cliff. So powered aircraft can be more dangerous than gliders but it could be policed and powered aircraft could fly safely and in an environmentally friendly way. Gliders on the other hand police themselves by their very limited flight envelope. The NT did not and do not have the man power to police this, so the agreement was we would only fly non powered models and instantly you take away many of the issues that could arise. You can fly a powered aircraft virtually anywhere and there was a powered model aircraft club not far away that was always happy to receive visitors.

2. Frequency control.

Remember the agreement was made 30+ years ago, when people still flew 27mhz and 35mhz, 2.4ghz did not exist. As I pointed out gliders require the lift to be on slope. There are three slopes at St Agnes and you can fly in any wind direction from N-SW From the N slope you cannot see the SW slope. In those days all pilots used to stand together and operate a peg board system to avoid frequency clashes and particularly with 27mhz swamping. You might not be able to see another pilot but you might be able to shoot him down!

3. Noise.

At the time of the agreement noise was hardly a consideration, but we now seem to have a very noise adverse society and in recent years we have even had a few complaints about the noise the gliders can make, the fact is that people find the noise that drones make annoying and we did not want to "rock the boat" in the last few years.

So since the original agreement number 2 has become largely irrelevant but 1 is still pertinent and 3 has become an issue.

The point of this thread was that the NE had imposed this ban without any evidence or without any consultation with the users of the site who had been flying there for years with due regard to the environment and safety.

I am being selective, but I am doing so based on facts and evidence and well thought out reasons, not just opinion

Finally I joined the FPVUK and left the BMFA ( which I had been a member of since 1972 because I thought that he was doing more for drone pilots and model aircraft pilots than the BMFA were so I am not anti drone in anyway. I

 

[sphexx]

Did I just see someone shot down in flames going past me?

 

[Baloo]

Is there any right of appeal against NE’s decision? Do the NT have to comply with the decision/advice? Not something I have considered before.

As far as we are aware there is no right of appeal, however we are presenting NE with an 8000 page report outlining our case. I live in hope that common sense will prevail.

 

[Baloo]

Unless, of course, the NT is behind a drone flying exercise over its property for "surveying purposes".

Or indeed NE themselves who have used Drones to record nesting bird numbers, I kid you not, I found this out when I issued the FOI request. Of course their argument is that is a one off!

 

[sphexx]

Or indeed NE themselves who have used Drones to record nesting bird numbers, I kid you not, I found this out when I issued the FOI request. Of course their argument is that is a one off!

With birds it’s usually one off, the lot off ;’.

 

[Baloo]

TBH Over the years I've seen the NT slowly lose the plot. & become very much money orientated

I totally agree with you on the wider issue, however to be fair to the NT the wardens have been very good and supportive of us over the years and the Head Warden was quite upset at having to impose this ban because he is aware of the good we have done for the site over the years.

But of course this thread is about the NT not the incompetence of the government

Well this has been imposed on the NT by Natural England who have threatened the NT with prosecution as NT are the land owners. Of course NE are a government body!

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

As far as we are aware there is no right of appeal, however we are presenting NE with an 8000 page report outlining our case. I live in hope that common sense will prevail.

Do you think they'll read it?

 

[Baloo]

Do you think they'll read it?

I really do not know Bob, my heart says they will but my head says not. A shooting club did get a ban up country rescinded but they had lots of money and some powerful allies,

 

[Nod]

By that logic, scramblers should be allowed to ride on mountainbike trails, green lanes etc....

Depending on the status of those trails and green lanes, it's possible that trail bikes (motor) and other powered vehicles are allowed to use them already.

Well no, because they cause physical and long lasting damage to the environment. A drone just buzzes about a bit.

They CAN but don't always, any more than walkers and MTBs CAN. When driven/ridden irresponsibly they can cause significant damage but so can an MTB if it's skidded down a grassy slope with the rear wheel locked up.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

but so can an MTB if it's skidded down a grassy slope with the rear wheel locked up.

I never knew that motor torpedo boats had rear wheels. Nor did I realise that people carried them up grassy slopes...

 

[cambsno]

I do not tell drone operators not to fly there, I ask politely and will explain the agreement we have with the NT, non powered flight is allowed, powered flight is not. If you bring a non powered drone to St Agnes you are welcome to fly it. Thing is that a non powered drone would be classed as a model glider.

I do not respond well to being told what I cannot do, but if someone asks me politely and explains the reasons then more often than not they will get a positive response.
But even if after I have explained all that you insist on flying I am going to try to make your flight as safe as possible by telling you about the terrain, how below the obvious path there is another path hidden that walkers use, where you will get rota and turbulence which can knock your drone out the sky. If you ignore all that and fly dangerously I might start getting annoyed or as two powered model pilots and one drone pilot have done ignore the advice about the rota I will watch as you spiral out of control and smash your model or drone. All three pilots who suffered that fate blamed radio failure because they would not accept what turbulence or rota can do even on what appears to be a calm day. Ninety percent of the model gliders pilots up there are going to tell you the same because it is a dying hobby and most of us have been flying there for many years and have vast experience of the site.

Ok so why is powered flight banned at St Agnes. Remember this is a historic agreement and drones did not exist at the time.

1. Flight envelope.

A powered aircraft, drone or otherwise has a completely different flight envelope to a model glider, model gliders need lift generated by the wind coming up the slope (I am ignoring thermals as you rarely get them coming off the sea) so gliders are flown away from the cliff edge and out towards the sea, that keeps us away from the walkers, the nesting sites, the cars, and the picnic sites. The only time you would fly behind the slope is on a landing approach and you always keep that area clear. Powered aircraft can fly anywhere, they can fly over the nesting sites, low over the paths, over people having picnics, over the cars and behind the cliff. So powered aircraft can be more dangerous than gliders but it could be policed and powered aircraft could fly safely and in an environmentally friendly way. Gliders on the other hand police themselves by their very limited flight envelope. The NT did not and do not have the man power to police this, so the agreement was we would only fly non powered models and instantly you take away many of the issues that could arise. You can fly a powered aircraft virtually anywhere and there was a powered model aircraft club not far away that was always happy to receive visitors.

2. Frequency control.

Remember the agreement was made 30+ years ago, when people still flew 27mhz and 35mhz, 2.4ghz did not exist. As I pointed out gliders require the lift to be on slope. There are three slopes at St Agnes and you can fly in any wind direction from N-SW From the N slope you cannot see the SW slope. In those days all pilots used to stand together and operate a peg board system to avoid frequency clashes and particularly with 27mhz swamping. You might not be able to see another pilot but you might be able to shoot him down!

3. Noise.

At the time of the agreement noise was hardly a consideration, but we now seem to have a very noise adverse society and in recent years we have even had a few complaints about the noise the gliders can make, the fact is that people find the noise that drones make annoying and we did not want to "rock the boat" in the last few years.

So since the original agreement number 2 has become largely irrelevant but 1 is still pertinent and 3 has become an issue.

The point of this thread was that the NE had imposed this ban without any evidence or without any consultation with the users of the site who had been flying there for years with due regard to the environment and safety.

I am being selective, but I am doing so based on facts and evidence and well thought out reasons, not just opinion

Finally I joined the FPVUK and left the BMFA ( which I had been a member of since 1972 because I thought that he was doing more for drone pilots and model aircraft pilots than the BMFA were so I am not anti drone in anyway. I

Times change though and drones are not a danger or risk if flown properly, about time the rules were updated then to include them.

 

[Baloo]

Times change though and drones are not a danger or risk if flown properly, about time the rules were updated then to include them.

Yes I have often wondered why Drone pilots have not tried to get the nationwide ban on drone flying on NT land overturned, I would support them.