Hybrid cars??????????

[Cockney]

I have read all the blurb and understand the technology but must be missing something.

Have you got one?
Under real world conditions is the mpg better? What are the benefits, both user and "green"?

 

[Mr Bump]

always about the mpg...........sigh

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

always about the mpg...........sigh

So you don't know then?

 

[Mr Bump]

So you don't know then?

no i don't but buying a hybrid should be about committing to other things.
making a conscious decision to improving your local environment.
investing in companies that promote better technology
not putting money into dinosaur car companies.

 

[boyfalldown]

no i don't but buying a hybrid should be about committing to other things.
making a conscious decision to improving your local environment.
investing in companies that promote better technology
not putting money into dinosaur car companies.

and you’d need to know MPG as part of the information to allow you to make that decision in an educated way

 

[Cockney]

no i don't but buying a hybrid should be about committing to other things.
making a conscious decision to improving your local environment.
investing in companies that promote better technology
not putting money into dinosaur car companies.

So how does a Hybrid benefit the environment ?
I did ask what the green benefits were.
Apart from saving a bit of energy by saving brake heat I don't get it. What am I missing?

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

no i don't but buying a hybrid should be about committing to other things.
making a conscious decision to improving your local environment.
investing in companies that promote better technology
not putting money into dinosaur car companies.

So that is why the OP also asked about user benefits and green benefits.
That doesn't sound like it's always about mpg......sigh.

 

[woof woof]

no i don't but buying a hybrid should be about committing to other things.
making a conscious decision to improving your local environment.
investing in companies that promote better technology
not putting money into dinosaur car companies.

I'm still worried about the whole life impact. It would be nice if we could have concise and correct figures and conclusions and could tell with some degree of certainty which is "best" planet wise. I suspect it wont be electric in the form it is now.

 

[AgentOrange76]

Environmentally friendly is expensive. Everyday Electric cars are £10k dearer than the petrol equivalent. I dont have £10k to be environmentally friendly alone so once i have found a car I like the look of, is comfortable to drive ,meets my size requirements and has a reasonable reputation for quality then i want to know what it costs to run. An EV will not recover the £10k additional outlay for me for 8 years so yes MPG is a major factor. And yes whats the point of having a hybrid that returns similar MPG to a non-hybrid car but costs a lot more

 

[Cockney]

Environmentally friendly is expensive. Everyday Electric cars are £10k dearer than the petrol equivalent. I dont have £10k to be environmentally friendly alone so once i have found a car I like the look of, is comfortable to drive ,meets my size requirements and has a reasonable reputation for quality then i want to know what it costs to run. An EV will not recover the £10k additional outlay for me for 8 years so yes MPG is a major factor. And yes whats the point of having a hybrid that returns similar MPG to a non-hybrid car but costs a lot more

Exactly. You're still producing an engine and burning fossil fuels but in addition your also building a battery pack, a generator, electric motors and additions to the braking technology.
What are the environmental benefits? They will only run 2 to 30 miles on battery only.

 

[Nod]

What are the environmental benefits? They will only run 2 to 30 miles on battery only.

They get noxious emissions (well, as many as possible - tyre particles and a little brake dust will still escape) out of town centres. 2 miles is enough for many towns and 30 is enough for most cities.

 

[Cockney]

They get noxious emissions (well, as many as possible - tyre particles and a little brake dust will still escape) out of town centres. 2 miles is enough for many towns and 30 is enough for most cities.

But you're burning fossil fuel, (revving far higher than your speed) to charge those (relatively) small batteries. In most hybrids theres no other way of charging the battery than running the engine.

 

[welshwizard645]

I got a Toyota hybrid thingy hire car from Hamburg airport about a year ago. I travel to HAM frequently and do the same amount of driving in lots of different cars..

The Toyota was BY A LONG WAY the most economical car I hired, but then sometimes I get a turbocharged Golf (1.4 and 2.0), other times a diesel something or other. I fondly remember the the turbo’d Astra and Golfs but as the Toyota and Lexus hybrids have CVT transmissions that makes them forgettable.

 

[Marc]

But you're burning fossil fuel, (revving far higher than your speed) to charge those (relatively) small batteries. In most hybrids theres no other way of charging the battery than running the engine.

I've had va hybrid for a little over a year. I can't say that the engine needs to rev higher than for the speed, I just drive it normally and the battery charges.

As for the mpg, I was getting up to 80mpg during the warm weather last year but, as it's only been driven sporadically this year, it's averaged a touch over 60mpg

 

[Box Brownie]

Never had or driven a hybrid but when I heard advertising mentioned "mild hybrid" that puzzled. It seems as I recall that the electric "aspect" were like having someone who could give the car push for but only briefly! IMO it seemed to be like the car makers were trying to make a normal with marginally green credentials

It struck the reverse of the above might make a decent combo. That is the primary motive power is electric that can & will be plugged in when needed/available. But it would have an ultra efficient lean burn ICE, this engine is not intended to drive the car but when combined with a state of the art generator would charge the battery pack either on demand or in a controlled trickle manner. Such a vehicle to me would be a mild hybrid!

 

[Cockney]

I've had va hybrid for a little over a year. I can't say that the engine needs to rev higher than for the speed, I just drive it normally and the battery charges.

As for the mpg, I was getting up to 80mpg during the warm weather last year but, as it's only been driven sporadically this year, it's averaged a touch over 60mpg

My understanding, only from reading, is that the battery management controlled the throttle on the ICE which meant that while cruising the revs could rise dramatically to recharge the buffer batteries. Im sure it differs between the 3 types of hybrid.
As I said before, I have no practical experience, hence the questions.
May I ask what Hybrid you have?

 

[nilagin]

always about the mpg...........sigh

Let's hear your thoughts then seeing as you are such an advocate for the environment, yet own neither a hybrid or an BEV.

 

[broc]

Never had or driven a hybrid but when I heard advertising mentioned "mild hybrid" that puzzled. It seems as I recall that the electric "aspect" were like having someone who could give the car push for but only briefly! IMO it seemed to be like the car makers were trying to make a normal with marginally green credentials

It struck the reverse of the above might make a decent combo. That is the primary motive power is electric that can & will be plugged in when needed/available. But it would have an ultra efficient lean burn ICE, this engine is not intended to drive the car but when combined with a state of the art generator would charge the battery pack either on demand or in a controlled trickle manner. Such a vehicle to me would be a mild hybrid!

That's how the BMW i3 with range extender was engineered, it used a BMW motorbike engine as a generator. BMW dropped the range extender feature in 2018 while claiming they increased the battery range of the base car. There are stories that suggest there were problems with the motorbike engine not being used very much causing issues with it.

 

[Marc]

My understanding, only from reading, is that the battery management controlled the throttle on the ICE which meant that while cruising the revs could rise dramatically to recharge the buffer batteries. Im sure it differs between the 3 types of hybrid.
As I said before, I have no practical experience, hence the questions.
May I ask what Hybrid you have?

I'm certainly no expert on these things but I fend it tends to switch to electric for short periods when cruising, cn't say that I'vre noticed revs rising, dramatically or otherwise. As I said in the other thread, I've been on electric at 75mph on the motorway.

I drive a Hyundai Ioniq.

 

[nilagin]

Never had or driven a hybrid but when I heard advertising mentioned "mild hybrid" that puzzled. It seems as I recall that the electric "aspect" were like having someone who could give the car push for but only briefly! IMO it seemed to be like the car makers were trying to make a normal with marginally green credentials

It struck the reverse of the above might make a decent combo. That is the primary motive power is electric that can & will be plugged in when needed/available. But it would have an ultra efficient lean burn ICE, this engine is not intended to drive the car but when combined with a state of the art generator would charge the battery pack either on demand or in a controlled trickle manner. Such a vehicle to me would be a mild hybrid!

A mild hybrid,or the Ford ones at least, have an electric motor that replaces the alternator. This provides additional torque to the engine, reducing emissions and fuel consumption whilst also allowing the car to accelerate faster. They have a small battery under one of the front seats, the battery recharges every time you slow down or brake.

Range extenders have an engine that acts as a generator that recharges the battery. In the case of the Transit, it uses a 1.0 ecoboost engine that isn't connected to the drive train.

 

[Box Brownie]

That's how the BMW i3 with range extender was engineered, it used a BMW motorbike engine as a generator. BMW dropped the range extender feature in 2018 while claiming they increased the battery range of the base car. There are stories that suggest there were problems with the motorbike engine not being used very much causing issues with it.

A mild hybrid,or the Ford ones at least, have an electric motor that replaces the alternator. This provides additional torque to the engine, reducing emissions and fuel consumption whilst also allowing the car to accelerate faster. They have a small battery under one of the front seats, the battery recharges every time you slow down or brake.

Range extenders have an engine that acts as a generator that recharges the battery. In the case of the Transit, it uses a 1.0 ecoboost engine that isn't connected to the drive train.

Ah! Range Extenders are in effect what I was describing.

In both your cases the engines in question were likely designed around 10 + years ago and reached a zenith of refinement for their era of vehicle.

In the same timeframe the electric drivetrains have been developed and on the face of still it are being developed.

However, only based on your posts the potential of low capacity(query <500cc) ICE units (possibly even multi fuel usage i.e. hydrogen, petrol, bio ethanol) combined with generators which could utilise cutting edge improvement(s) to get a conversion efficiency of >90%.....have not publicly been developed in parallel.

This maybe infers the piecemeal way that technology can and does get developed.....just a pity it is a bit like parts of the M25, one section going oh so well but then a traffic delay "pulse" slows everyone to a fraction of the speed achieved moments before

 

[nilagin]

Ah! Range Extenders are in effect what I was describing.

In both your cases the engines in question were likely designed around 10 + years ago and reached a zenith of refinement for their era of vehicle.

The engine in the Transit, first appeared in the Fiesta around 2011/12. The mild hybrid engine found currently in the Fiesta, Focus and Puma is a redesign of that 2011/12 engine, starting development in 2013. It appeared in the Fiesta in 2018 without the mild hybrid feature.
The mild hybrid came about because Ford wanted a more powerful engine than the 140PS available on the original engine. The only way this could be achieved was by using a larger turbo and slightly lower compression. As a result the engine produces 155PS, but loses lower end torque. The electric motor replaces that lower end torque, it also allows for a Sport Mode where the extra torque can be increased by a further 30Nm. ( The engine actually produced 173PS during development and would be capable of producing more power). Because of the improved fuel consumption and emissions with the more powerful engine, it was decided to make a mild hybrid version of the 125PS variant as well. The 155PS version has replaced the 1.5 litre 150PS engine that Ford put in the Focus.
Ford also have a mild hybrid diesel engine as well which works the same.
Additional features of the mild hybrid electric motor are that it allows the engine to shut down below a certain road speed as you slow to stop, allowing the stop / start to activate earlier than it does in a conventional car, saving fuel and emissions, the motor also restarts the engine quicker than a starter motor.

 

[JonathanRyan]

I looked into this about 3 years ago - it's likely the landscape has changed significantly since then - not least because I was mostly looking at new then and there are more 2nd hand available now. But at the time, I came to the conclusion there were no good hybrid cars. The closest I found was buying a brand new Hyundai Ioniq but I bottled out and bought a second hand (petrol) Honda because I calculated it to have a lower whole life environmental impact than any hybrid that was then on the market.

Battery tech was (and still is) moving so fast that after 3 - 5 years the tech in a second hand car is so out of date that it is essentially worthless for resale. Which makes them a terrible long term impact on the environment. (Yes, you can recycle the bits other cars don't have but with other cars you don't need to.). That's exactly what happened when Toyota swapped to LiOn for its Prius instead of NiMH - when I was looking they practically couldn't give NiMH away because LiOn was perceived as so much better. Hilariously this might not even be true, they are still making NiMH cars.

I've had va hybrid for a little over a year. I can't say that the engine needs to rev higher than for the speed, I just drive it normally and the battery charges.

As for the mpg, I was getting up to 80mpg during the warm weather last year but, as it's only been driven sporadically this year, it's averaged a touch over 60mpg

That's about the numbers I was using to compare against a 38-50ish mpg Honda - on an extended test drive of the Ioniq I was hitting 70 - 80 and could probably have gone higher with care. Grab a copy of Excel and do some numbers. Over 3 years typical driving you will save a bunch of running costs at the expense of your £5-10K extra. For me it was nowhere near worth it - especially considering the resale value of a Honda that will run forever

 

[wyx087]

I'm still worried about the whole life impact. It would be nice if we could have concise and correct figures and conclusions and could tell with some degree of certainty which is "best" planet wise. I suspect it wont be electric in the form it is now.

A quick google shows:

Factcheck: How electric vehicles help to tackle climate change

Electric vehicles (EVs) are an important part of meeting global goals on climate change. They feature prominently in mitigation pathways that limit warming to well-below 2C or 1.5C, which would be inline with the Paris Agreement’s targets.

www.carbonbrief.org

and another one:

https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/downloads/T%26E%E2%80%99s%20EV%20life%20cycle%20analysis%20LCA.pdf

The biggest take away is that we need to stop using ICE to convert fossil fuel at point of use. This includes hybrids, especially current mild-hybrids, where 100% of the energy still comes from ICE burning fossil fuel. Plug-in hybrids are okay as long as you plug in and normally drive within its rated electric range, but unfortunately most PHEV will turn on the engine when accelerating hard and left in its default drive mode.

But if you are going to plug-in everyday for that 30 miles range anyway....... You could have bought a 100+ miles EV and only need to plug in every other day.
For me the added mechanical complexity and having to service ICE makes hybrid a poor middle ground compromise.

Over 3 years typical driving you will save a bunch of running costs at the expense of your £5-10K extra.

EV are almost at price parity.

Petrol MG ZS auto start just under £18k: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-se...ption=on&year-from=new&transmission=Automatic
Electric MG ZS EV start just under £20k: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-se...new&transmission=Automatic&fuel-type=Electric

For £2000 more, not only much cheaper daily running, it's also much safer: Petrol ZS has EuroNCAP rating of 3. Electric ZS EV has rating of 5. (source)

 

[nilagin]

EV are almost at price parity.

Petrol MG ZS auto start just under £18k: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=ln139rf&radius=1500&make=MG&model=MG ZS&include-delivery-option=on&year-from=new&transmission=Automatic
Electric MG ZS EV start just under £20k: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=ln139rf&radius=1500&make=MG&model=MG ZS&include-delivery-option=on&year-from=new&transmission=Automatic&fuel-type=Electric

List price of most expensive petrol MG ZS is £19503
MG ZS EV starts at £25,495 after plug in grant.

 

[Nod]

The prices wyz087 appear to be what the cars are actually available for rather than list price.

 

[nilagin]

The prices wyz087 appear to be what the cars are actually available for rather than list price.

And you really believe that they are prepared to knock £6k off the price of the EV and only £1.5k off the petrol.

 

[Cobra]

And you really believe that they are prepared to knock £6k off the price of the EV and only £1.5k off the petrol.

Of course the government are looking to make the transition as quick and painless as possible.
But then again

 

[Nod]

And you really believe that they are prepared to knock £6k off the price of the EV and only £1.5k off the petrol.

Looking at other examples of similar cars listed there, yes. Not sure why MG EVs seem to be being heavily discounted but it certainly looks like they are at several dealers.

 

[wyx087]

And you really believe that they are prepared to knock £6k off the price of the EV and only £1.5k off the petrol.

I thought you favour list price over MSRP?

Or is it in the above instance MSRP works in your favour and in below instance, list price suits you better?

Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

I think the electric car enthusiasts just don't understand the basic issues. The 1st is that electricity storage density is still far behind ICE fuel storage density so you have to choose between range and carrying capacity: The big drawback with the Ford Focus Electric was lack of cargo space...

www.talkphotography.co.uk

 

[woof woof]

A quick google shows:...

Maybe I need to study that or do my own Googling but what I'm interested in the the environmental impact over whole life and that includes mining materials, manufacturing components, making the cars, ownership and scrapping/recycling and then there's the issue of sourcing the materials for the batteries. I heard or read somewhere that the planet can't support that and strip mining the ocean floor is going to be contentious to say the least.

I'll look into this one day but at the mo I just can't see it working on a larger scale than it's happening now especially as recycling and safe disposal are at this point in time sometimes more fantasy than the reality.

 

[wyx087]

Maybe I need to study that or do my own Googling but what I'm interested in the the environmental impact over whole life and that includes mining materials, manufacturing components, making the cars, ownership and scrapping/recycling and then there's the issue of sourcing the materials for the batteries. I heard or read somewhere that the planet can't support that and strip mining the ocean floor is going to be contentious to say the least.

I'll look into this one day but at the mo I just can't see it working on a larger scale than it's happening now especially as recycling and safe disposal are at this point in time sometimes more fantasy than the reality.

Battery recycling is a new industry, but definitely a solvable and scalable problem when the demand appears.

View: https://youtu.be/Bpe8HalVXFU


There is also re-using the battery at the end of its useful life powering electric vehicle.

Both articles I linked does talk about environmental impact of mining and production of batteries. The graph I posted above definitely includes production impact.

If I recall correctly, but happy to be corrected. The sea floor news was an research done on possible source of material for battery production. But the news headlines turned it into “EV need to destroy sea floor”.
Did the research paper actually say it was required to fulfil global EV demand? How was it calculated? Everyone replace their car with unnecessary 500 miles EV using existing battery technology?

 

[woof woof]

Battery recycling is a new industry, but definitely a solvable and scalable problem when the demand appears.

View: https://youtu.be/Bpe8HalVXFU


There is also re-using the battery at the end of its useful life powering electric vehicle.

Both articles I linked does talk about environmental impact of mining and production of batteries. The graph I posted above definitely includes production impact.

If I recall correctly, but happy to be corrected. The sea floor news was an research done on possible source of material for battery production. But the news headlines turned it into “EV need to destroy sea floor”.
Did the research paper actually say it was required to fulfil global EV demand? How was it calculated? Everyone replace their car with unnecessary 500 miles EV using existing battery technology?

It's scalable if either the planet can provide the materials needed to make them without causing damage or pollution that'd make the whole thing pointless or just not any better than what we do now to run petrol and diesel or if we can synthesise or otherwise make the batteries without raping the planet for the rare elements and materials they need in their current form.

Yes, electric cars are made now but in relatively small numbers but if the whole planet or even just a large developed country is going to go full ev that's a different matter and brings me back to that report stating the planet can't provide what we need to make the batteries. If that report is wrong that's another matter. Is it wrong?

And then there's end of life / recycling much of which people need putting in prison over such is the farce it is. Sometimes...

Going back 10 or 15 years or more when I was working for a supplier I heard something worrying... if true... and it was that a certain European manufacturer, in my informants words "had decided that ev was the way to go and there was no alternative." That decision was backed by the national govt. I don't generally buy into conspiracy theories but we are being pushed in ev and I do hope it is indeed the right way to go.

I live in hope but I wont be too surprised if all this ends in tears and after a few years we're all told ev is evil and we must move onto the next thing.

 

[wyx087]

It's scalable if either the planet can provide the materials needed to make them without causing damage or pollution that'd make the whole thing pointless or just not any better than what we do now to run petrol and diesel or if we can synthesise or otherwise make the batteries without raping the planet for the rare elements and materials they need in their current form.

Yes, electric cars are made now but in relatively small numbers but if the whole planet or even just a large developed country is going to go full ev that's a different matter and brings me back to that report stating the planet can't provide what we need to make the batteries. If that report is wrong that's another matter. Is it wrong?

And then there's end of life / recycling much of which people need putting in prison over such is the farce it is. Sometimes...

Going back 10 or 15 years or more when I was working for a supplier I heard something worrying... if true... and it was that a certain European manufacturer, in my informants words "had decided that ev was the way to go and there was no alternative." That decision was backed by the national govt. I don't generally buy into conspiracy theories but we are being pushed in ev and I do hope it is indeed the right way to go.

I live in hope but I wont be too surprised if all this ends in tears and after a few years we're all told ev is evil and we must move onto the next thing.

After producing EV, once they are on the road, how can they be deemed evil?

Please have a think before diving into conspiracy theory. This isn’t another vehicle producing tailpipe emissions. This completely changes the game, won’t be repeat of diesels. As the government works to reduce electric grid production emissions, even the oldest EV will produce less emission per mile. In what way can this turn out to be evil?

Car ownership as whole, might change and deemed evil. But that is a completely different subject to petrol/hybrid/BEV debate.


Do you know what isn’t sustainably scalable? Digging up thousands year old carbon based fuel and burning it as sole power source. Luckily sale of new examples of those will finally be banned in 2030.


(Edited for clarification on last sentence. )

 

[broc]

I live in hope but I wont be too surprised if all this ends in tears and after a few years we're all told ev is evil and we must move onto the next thing.

Just like we were told about diesel some years back..........

 

[Nod]

Luckily those will finally be banned in 2030.

No.

The sale of brand new examples might be (according to current plans) but the vehicles themselves will not be banned.

 

[nilagin]

I thought you favour list price over MSRP?

They are the same thing.

 

[nilagin]

Looking at other examples of similar cars listed there, yes. Not sure why MG EVs seem to be being heavily discounted but it certainly looks like they are at several dealers.

I can think of two reasons.
1 it's an MG
2 it's an EV.

 

[wyx087]

I can think of two reasons.
1 it's an MG
2 it's an EV.

I think the real reason for heavy discount is that MG are committed to EV’s. They seem to produce more EV than market demand. As market demand picks up from changing mindset, their cars are here and available for purchase.

This is a kind of foresight. Not relying on market survey and just selling the lowest common denominator....... something Henry Ford had commented on in early 1900’s.

 

[omens]

Just like we were told about diesel some years back..........

Remember how diesel was the saviour because of lower CO2 emissions? Then it turned out to cause more NOx particulates.

Before that, unleaded was the way forward because of lead poisoning issues. Until it was decided that petrol was contributing to the greenhouse effect.

I don’t mind EV being the way forward but I’d want the whole chain to be environmentally sound.

Whatever happened to the hydrogen fuel cell? Use electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, then combust it to produce water. Sounded like a much better prospect than mining for precious metals.