How to give crit and how to take crit

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joescrivens

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There have been a few prickly threads of late in the critique section mainly where threads have deteriorated due to a number of factors which I like to classify as follows:

1. Crit asked for - good crit given - crit not appreciated
2. Crit asked for - good crit given in a bad way - op becomes defensive
3. Crit asked for - other togs demean or belittle op - thread explodes

this has lead to a number of posters claiming they won't give crit and others claiming they won't post for crit.

In my opinion all three of the above scenarios are undesirable. What we really want is:

4. Crit asked for - good crit given - crit appreciated

There's an art to giving crit and an art to receiving it. Nobody should have to numb their crit to make sure it doesn't offend. There is nothing wrong with direct and honest crit. Comments like:

"This shot is poorly exposed. The exif shows your histogram is bunched up to the left. This means you need to up your ISO or dial in a few stops exposure compensation to improve it"

or

"I don't like the composition, I think you have cropped it too tightly and there isn't enough space around the person"

are perfect in my opinion, anyone reading crit like that and taking offence or becoming defensive is in the wrong. The crit is honest, it doesn't massage the OP or soften but it doesn't belittle. On the other hand a comment like:

"these are not pro shots, you should not be charging for these, all of them would have ended up in the bin if I had taken them"

is poor crit designed to belittle the OP. There is no way a comment like this isn't going to end in a defensive response from OP and other posters alike.

What we don't want as a community is people not posting for fear of unfair crit and other people not critting for fear of retribution. Feel free to add your own thoughts to good deliver and reception of crit
 
My take is that it is certainly a two way street.

I think if you asked for crit then it is only polite to respond to the crit that is given.

Equally if a rude response is recieved then use the report post button.

Sadly a lot seem to descend into a slanging match which does none of us any good especially as we are all here because we love photography regardless of our skill sets

A post to say thanks quite often goes a very long way:shrug::thumbs:

After all we all human and i am sure not many would act this way in public
(however I recognise i may be wrong:eek::lol:)
 
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The old technique for giving feedback of any sort still works.
It is like a Marmite sandwich, you get the nice bread, the horrible stuff in the middle and then some nice bread again :D

So you start off saying what you like, then say what could be improved, in your opinion, and finish up with some good points.

Something like:

Good lighting on this but I feel that the composition is too tight, see what it is like with a bit more space around the person. Good focus on the eyes - always nice to see.
 
Suvv said:
The old technique for giving feedback of any sort still works.
It is like a Marmite sandwich, you get the nice bread, the horrible stuff in the middle and then some nice bread again :D

So you start off saying what you like, then say what could be improved, in your opinion, and finish up with some good points.

Something like:

Good lighting on this but I feel that the composition is too tight, see what it is like with a bit more space around the person. Good focus on the eyes - always nice to see.
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well, This works for sure but I appreciate it's not everyones style and people want to be frank at times. So I don't think this is essential if the bit in the middle is relevant and delivered matter of factly without insulting and an offer for how to improve. I think just saying:

The composition is too tight, see what it is like with a bit more space around the person.

Is fine. What isn't fine is:

You screwed up the composition put this in the bin ... you knobjockey.

well maybe the last bit was a bit of an invention :lol:
 
You're right, but I think you're wasting your time trying to rationalise this - the same thing has been mooted so many times, but it still carries on. You'll never change people's behaviour, nor can you argue with stupidity (to the extent that no matter how things are put, some will still get defensive, and conversely, some have no skill or tact at providing commentary). I tend to simply ignore things now more often than not if they deteriorate - it's all too easy to get pulled in. Following (from a distance) a deteroriating thread is oftentimes quite funny anyway, epsecially when you put things into real perspective - e.g. tsunami, volcano-wise etc).
 
Perhaps there should be an insults section as well as a critique and and not critique section? All the rude people are then left to only be able to post in the insults area :)

Some criticism is harsh. Some of that harshness is deserved. If someone is charging money for their services then they have to be able take a decent picture so I'd expect the criticism offered to be more robust than that offered to those that were taking pictures for fun. If you are taking money for taking photos then expect harsher treatment!
 
srichards said:
If someone is charging money for their services then they have to be able take a decent picture so I'd expect the criticism offered to be more robust than that offered to those that were taking pictures for fun. If you are taking money for taking photos then expect harsher treatment!
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here's where it gets interesting.

My opinion is that the fee being charged must reflect the quality of the product and service being offered. If I am being paid £10 to take 100 photos then the quality shouldn't be more than that of a point and shoot.

There seems to be an opinion from people who do this for a living that anything that is being paid for no matter what the cost should be of a quality they have in their head. I believe that there is a minimum standard for a paid for product in that the shots should be in focus, correctly exposed with no camera shake.

Everything from there on in is subjective to the taste of the individual as well as to reflect on the price being paid. I would expect the quality of a shoot costing £2000 to be higher than one costing £200 and the crit should reflect this also.

Someone charging £2000 for 10 photos better have a better quality shot than someone charging £200 and the crit should be more specific and defined. But the crit is still relevant to the lower fee shoot as long as it doesn't come across like:

"I can't believe you charged £200 for these crap images, how dare you bring down our profession" (if they really were all out of focus, underexposed and full of camera shake - this may be more appropriate - but if they were technically competent they just didn't meet the level that the critiquer thinks should be achieved then it's not on -for this is after all, just your opinion)
 
joescrivens said:
My opinion is that the fee being charged must reflect the quality of the product and service being offered. If I am being paid £10 to take 100 photos then the quality shouldn't be more than that of a point and shoot.
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As one of my teacher's once said, that could be construed as a 'very civil service attitude to things' ! What about having a pride or professional attitude towards the work, whatever it is and whatever the fee. Aside form this, a £10 job may give rise to one paying more etc.

How do you quantify the quality? It's subjective - someones point and shoot image of a subject may be far superior to someone else's image of the same taken with a D3s. Furthermore, the quality that a client sees in an image will vary greatly - some will presumably have lower expectations, as in everything with life.

I see what you're saying, but essentially I think that everyone has an opinion on what they consider to be a good photo, and it's immaterial what it was taken with, whether it was paid for, or what it's of. Importantly, because it is opinion rather than fact, it will inevitably conflict with someone else's opinion. I see no reason why critique should be provided in ever increasing levels of terseness as the apparent 'pro-ness' of the tog goes up.
 
py6km said:
As one of my teacher's once said, that could be construed as a 'very civil service attitude to things' ! What about having a pride or professional attitude towards the work, whatever it is and whatever the fee. Aside form this, a £10 job may give rise to one paying more etc.

How do you quantify the quality? It's subjective - someones point and shoot image of a subject may be far superior to someone else's image of the same taken with a D3s. Furthermore, the quality that a client sees in an image will vary greatly - some will presumably have lower expectations, as in everything with life.

I see what you're saying, but essentially I think that everyone has an opinion on what they consider to be a good photo, and it's immaterial what it was taken with, whether it was paid for, or what it's of. Importantly, because it is opinion rather than fact, it will inevitably conflict with someone else's opinion. I see no reason why critique should be provided in ever increasing levels of terseness as the apparent 'pro-ness' of the tog goes up.
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it was more a throw way comment to address the difference in quality for £1000 to £10. For sure the quality could be better independent of the equipment.

Here's the thing. Not all photographers are equally as talented - this is just fact. But there is a scale of talent across the board and the cost of the product should reflect that talent. The more talented a photographer is the likelihood is more people will want their work and they can charge more.

The crit offered should differ based on the talent right? If not then every single wedding photographer on this forum that isn't as good as our lithuanian friend here should be slated. If any tog that charges is then compared to the best there is regardless of their price then the majority of posters on here would be slated.

If tog 1 and tog 2 charge the same fee for a product then I think they should be critiqued evenly. If tog 2 charges 10 times what tog 1 does then tog 1s product shouldn't be compared to tog 2 - they are in a different league.

Critique itself though can be given the same I suppose but it always goes further than that. What I see is that tog 1 who charged a very minimal fee is expected by the critiquers to offer the same service that tog 2 charging thousands and to me that is just wrong.
 
There's just no need to be rude, insulting or derogatory - end of. If you can't crit without being any of the aforementioned, just don't crit. It's not rocket science, and manners are free.... but we all know the culprits who kick it off every time, and they're not likely to change.
 
joescrivens said:
If tog 1 and tog 2 charge the same fee for a product then I think they should be critiqued evenly. If tog 2 charges 10 times what tog 1 does then tog 1s product shouldn't be compared to tog 2 - they are in a different league.

Critique itself though can be given the same I suppose but it always goes further than that. What I see is that tog 1 who charged a very minimal fee is expected by the critiquers to offer the same service that tog 2 charging thousands and to me that is just wrong.
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Yeah, I can see what you mean. I would tend to filter all that out though and simply comment on the image irrespective. I think that the constructiveness can always be present, but perhaps people's delivery varies depending on the recipient (eg pro will get a harsher delivery than a non-pro perhaps becuase of the expectation that being paid means that you should be at the top of your game, or on the way there at least). I haven't been into the relevant forums for a while, so may have missed some of the stuff that got this started.
 
DekHog said:
There's just no need to be rude, insulting or derogatory - end of. If you can't crit without being any of the aforementioned, just don't crit. It's not rocket science, and manners are free.... but we all know the culprits who kick it off every time, and they're not likely to change.
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Yes, I think that's bottom line.
 
Joe, im with you 100% If i did a wedding theres no way it could be judged with the same view point as the Lithuanian guy you mentioned. People would have to give allowance for the fact that i am an amateur.
 
py6km said:
Yeah, I can see what you mean. I would tend to filter all that out though and simply comment on the image irrespective. I think that the constructiveness can always be present, but perhaps people's delivery varies depending on the recipient (eg pro will get a harsher delivery than a non-pro perhaps becuase of the expectation that being paid means that you should be at the top of your game, or on the way there at least). I haven't been into the relevant forums for a while, so may have missed some of the stuff that got this started.
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Yes, and I think this perception is wrong just because money was exchanged for service does not mean that service should be equal across the board. It isn't in any other profession in the world - the cheaper the food the more likely it will taste bad. The cheaper the TV the less likely it will be as good as the highest model etc

Also lets not make this just about the critiquers! There are also times when a person asks for crit gets fair crit that isn't rude and gets defensive about it. Don't do that either - you asked for crit accept the good and the bad.

The important thing is that asking for crit doesn't mean it's an opening for someone to come and belittle you and at the same time asking for crit doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with your opinions, they aren't wrong for doing so.
 
Adey said:
Joe, im with you 100% If i did a wedding theres no way it could be judged with the same view point as the Lithuanian guy you mentioned. People would have to give allowance for the fact that i am an amateur.
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as long as you aren't charging the same prices! As soon as you compete with another of the same fee - you should be judged accordingly
 
Is there anyway for the OP to put up what sort of skill level they're at? It might be they want a proper critique but would allow for those posting to base their thoughts on a rough competency guide of the tog.
 
bigfub said:
Is there anyway for the OP to put up what sort of skill level they're at? It might be they want a proper critique but would allow for those posting to base their thoughts on a rough competency guide of the tog.
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this does often happen, someone will say "This is my first paid shoot and I did it for my sister". Although this can be irrelevant to the actual crit that is given as said above.
But i think it should be taken into account before someone flames them by saying "These are not good enough to sell" This is subjective and depends on how much they sold for and what the client was expecting
 
We all have the profile options for name, location etc, I was just thinking that an optional level/competency/other more suitable name may allow some tempering of the crit. I fully realise that this isn't going to change the style of some posters critique of posts but could help.
 
For me, an important thing is that the person who posts the pic has written a little about perhaps why they took the pic, whether they achieved what they thought, what they feel could have been done better.

A few weeks back someone posted up a picture of a bramble. While I have no problem with pictures of brambles, they just posted the pic with NOTHING to say. So, if they can't be bothered to say anything, then why should I?

Sorry, but this is really annoying me at the moment and I have to say is turning me off TP big time. Also, there is a surprising amount of mediocrity about. I know we all start at the beginning, I'm no better than any one else, but there are just snaps being posted on many ocassions. Also, while I'm at it, and putting myself on the firing line, I am sick to death of seeing 'straight from camera' and the pics being soft, washed out etc. Surely you want to show your best possible pics? Why post them and clearly expect comments. If someone can not be bothered to do any PP to make the pic better, then they don't deserve a reply - All my opinion of course :)

I'd like to think that I am not rude and wouldn't go out of my way to offend anyone. I certainly wouldn't say anything that I wouldn't be happy to take either. If my pic is mediocre and soft, then I damn well want to be told. Shame there's just no one on here doing that anymore - That's what it feels like anyway.
 
Ulfric M Douglas said:
I think all critique should end with this suggestion from the OP;
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:thumbs: Equality. I like that idea - insult everyone equally and nobody can be offended or feel singled out for bullying :lol:

There are always 3 questions that I ask myself when offering crit :

- What do I like about it and why?
- What do I not like about it and why?
- What would I have liked to see done differently? And if my technical knowledge extends to it I'll offer some suggestions on how to do it differently.

I can't always answer all 3, but it gives me a place to start.
Giving critique doesn't have to be any more complicated than that - and if you keep the tone polite then there's no excuse for any :dummy:

What does annoy me though, is when I've taken the time to write a full reply and the OP never bothers returning for even a "thank you".
 
swag72 said:
For me, an important thing is that the person who posts the pic has written a little about perhaps why they took the pic, whether they achieved what they thought, what they feel could have been done better.

A few weeks back someone posted up a picture of a bramble. While I have no problem with pictures of brambles, they just posted the pic with NOTHING to say. So, if they can't be bothered to say anything, then why should I?

Sorry, but this is really annoying me at the moment and I have to say is turning me off TP big time. Also, there is a surprising amount of mediocrity about. I know we all start at the beginning, I'm no better than any one else, but there are just snaps being posted on many ocassions. Also, while I'm at it, and putting myself on the firing line, I am sick to death of seeing 'straight from camera' and the pics being soft, washed out etc. Surely you want to show your best possible pics? Why post them and clearly expect comments. If someone can not be bothered to do any PP to make the pic better, then they don't deserve a reply - All my opinion of course :)

I'd like to think that I am not rude and wouldn't go out of my way to offend anyone. I certainly wouldn't say anything that I wouldn't be happy to take either. If my pic is mediocre and soft, then I damn well want to be told. Shame there's just no one on here doing that anymore - That's what it feels like anyway.
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I think a lot of what you say makes sense and is good advise to those posting and wanting crit.

As for the mediocrity part though you have to realise this is just your opinion, others might not think what is being posted is mediocre.

I think there are people doing what you describe, I certainly do if I see a pic that is soft i'll tell it. Just hopefully in a straight forward way and not meant to belittle or demean
 
SarahLee said:
What does annoy me though, is when I've taken the time to write a full reply and the OP never bothers returning for even a "thank you".
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posters asking for critique take note! As someone said above manners costs nothing on both sides of the crit.
 
When I put images up and ask for C&C I expect negative or I don't like etc as I'm still learning and my sometimes my mistakes can be seen in my images that I'm unaware of. But there is now and then someone pipes up and gives rude C&C and lets there keyboard run away when there is no need. Sometimes an image can start a debate that even can learn from no matter how good or bad you are at photography. My latest thread has a comment or too that there was no need but hey! Just take the rough with the smooth. If you get negitivity then learn from it. If you get a positive reponse thumbs up.

Feel better now I got that off my chest....

Thanks
 
swag72 said:
Sorry, but this is really annoying me at the moment and I have to say is turning me off TP big time. Also, there is a surprising amount of mediocrity about. I know we all start at the beginning, I'm no better than any one else, but there are just snaps being posted on many ocassions. Also, while I'm at it, and putting myself on the firing line, I am sick to death of seeing 'straight from camera' and the pics being soft, washed out etc. Surely you want to show your best possible pics? Why post them and clearly expect comments. If someone can not be bothered to do any PP to make the pic better, then they don't deserve a reply - All my opinion of course :)

I'd like to think that I am not rude and wouldn't go out of my way to offend anyone. I certainly wouldn't say anything that I wouldn't be happy to take either. If my pic is mediocre and soft, then I damn well want to be told. Shame there's just no one on here doing that anymore - That's what it feels like anyway.
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That's fair enough in many ways but at the moment my only editing program is MS Picture Manager so my two posts for crit have both been straight from the camera. I still want crit under those circumstances but should I stop posting because I can't do any PP on the image?
 
I agree, there's a right way to comment and we should all be able to know what isn't polite. I was just on another photography forum and there was so many posts that were just out and out rude and there was just no need. I didn't even bother signing up as constructive critism is one thing but just abusing someones efforts is another.
 
I asked about editing stuff when I first started out when the pennies were tight and suggestions of free software was available. Gimp is the first edit software I used and it got me off the ground if your new. Gimp could now be open to debate. Open a new thread?? I went from that to elements 8. Now I got cs3
 
collins82002 said:
I asked about editing stuff when I first started out when the pennies were tight and suggestions of free software was available. Gimp is the first edit software I used and it got me off the ground if your new. Gimp could now be open to debate. Open a new thread?? I went from that to elements 8. Now I got cs3
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Thanks for the advice & suggestions :thumbs:
 
Can't the rude people just be banned? If there are some that always winding each other up then ban them all for a month and see if they behave when they are allowed to return. If not, ban them permanently.
 
srichards said:
Can't the rude people just be banned? If there are some that always winding each other up then ban them all for a month and see if they behave when they are allowed to return. If not, ban them permanently.
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but on this solution the people who receive good crit and take it badly should also then be banned right?

That wouldn't work. I think more awareness of both is whats needed and people to be a little more courteous on both sides would do the trick
 
Its very rare that I post images on here now for crit. Not that I cant take it, its because it seems I have to prise it out of folk. I find I post images that just go uncommented on unless I bump it or add a sarcastic note so I tend not to bother.

Some of the crit I have received has been good but some of it really bad and a lot of it very conflicting. I remember posting some rally shots on and I was criticised for not cropping tight to the subject, The next rally I did I posted cropped images to be told they should not be cropped tight. Its all about peoples opinions rather than their skill in my opinion, you either like an image or you don't.
 
Would it perhaps be worth drawing up a critiquing template? That way members wishing to offer advice can give feedback on set aspects of the picture, rather than just posting random thoughts/comments.

I also feel that when you post a picture you should have to write a paragraph or two explaining what you set out to achieve with the image, why you used the settings/lighting etc that you did.

Something in the back of my mind though is nagging me that an attempt was made previously to implement this, without success....
 
I tend to limit my crit', mainly cos I have problems typing (it hurts).

I tend to leave photo's unless I have something good or constructive to say, but I'm not going to go into an essay,
I shoot from the hip and take it on the chin if its directed at me.

Not a lot of people like the way I shoot, or what I shoot, I do and I guess its kind of become my style, its very much a love it or hate it deal but if someone hates it then fine, its provoked a reaction and I do tend to shoot ugly subjects and process to bring out the flaws in people, myself especially.
Of course I'm happy if someone likes it, but its not required or expected.
 
swag72 said:
Also, while I'm at it, and putting myself on the firing line, I am sick to death of seeing 'straight from camera' and the pics being soft, washed out etc. Surely you want to show your best possible pics? Why post them and clearly expect comments. If someone can not be bothered to do any PP to make the pic better, then they don't deserve a reply - All my opinion of course :)

I'd like to think that I am not rude and wouldn't go out of my way to offend anyone. I certainly wouldn't say anything that I wouldn't be happy to take either. If my pic is mediocre and soft, then I damn well want to be told. Shame there's just no one on here doing that anymore - That's what it feels like anyway.
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While I agreed with your earlier point that people should put a bit of info on here along with the image i.e what they were after, what story do they want to tell etc, saying that only people using PP deserve Crit gets my back up. Yes I do use PP when I feel it's appropriate but like alot of other photographers I know I feel it's too easy to hide basic faults caused at the time a shot was taken by using PP.

Alot of us who began with Wet film and having to master dark room techniques that required skill and not a click of a mouse (I know advanced PP is a skill but alot of people just use the auto adjust settings) still see things like PP as cheating. There are still alot of us who use the classical Photojournalism style where the image should be straight from the camera as that IS how the story was seen and we would like crit on that basis. Now obviously if people want to do this they should say so in order that people don't start telling them how PP can improve it. Also straight from the camera shots are in my opinion a better way of judging a persons basic technique as there is no hiding behind the editing.

Like I said PP has it's place and I will use it when required although always with the minimum editing I can. But most of the time I'm of the opinion that if a shot requires alot of work with PP then it's not a shot worth keeping and I will try and get it right next time. Taking the photo is the real skill that photographers need not editing. I still make alot of mistakes with my photography and welcome crit (as long as your not rude and insulting for the sake of it) but hey we all make mistakes with shots and good crit helps us improve for next time. I think photography is like anything in life none of us know everything and anyone who claims they do is probably heading for a rather large public fall. Photography is a form of art and is therefore subjective, if you don't like something fine thats your perogative but if you are going to give crit then comments like this isn't my cup of tea of tea but good effort and I like the eyes, or good use of lighting but have you tried ....etc are far more helpfull than just thats crap I hate it.
 
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