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Steve T

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Is there much point in trying to get very accurate colour reproduction for website display. Different monitors, different lighting, different eyeballs viewing the product on all sorts of new media. I am having a very tough time with this question, on the one hand I want to show the product as accurately as possible, on the other I feel it may be a waste of time obsessing over accuracy when it will all get mangled and buggered travelling over the net and viewed on ???media. What is the 'good enough' standard???.

We would never take an order that has not been placed and confirmed upon sight of a hard copy sample. We are talking ceramics here, a real swine to photograph with any degree of colour accuracy.

How to give the best visual service possible, yet have no control over how that service is received.

I calibrate my monitor, have shed loads of specific custom white balances for my studio areas, you name it. Yet, when I test everything on four different monitors I can't get them all to see my best efforts the same, they all differ, just like they will in the rest of the web world. so, what's the point.

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on this subject and have asked the question here on the lighting forum as the best place for colour accuracy appreciation and understanding.

Is it worth it?
 
Well, if you shoot it right, and put it in the right profile for where it's going, it's not going to be too far off. Then it's just down to 'them' at the other end. If you don't bother, and put any old thing up then it's going to be more wrong by the time someone sees it. Just tell your clients that it might not be bang on, depending on how it's viewed.
 
Two things spring to mind. Consistent colours mean consistent inter-photo differences of different objects taken in different places. I.e. if you perceive an object to be slightly redder, it will be. Although the absolute may not be 100%, the relative values will be on any given monitor. If your colour is right, you can demonstrate it on a calibrated monitor should the need arise and you will know it is correct.
 
Yeah very interesting subject. When the first calibrator for the iPad came out I was arguing that actually we should be calibrating our edit screens to match the iPad ;)

I've had a couple of monitors for years. They aren't high end but they work fine for me. Over time I've tinkered and know that they will be pretty close to any lab prints I get.

Last week I finally bought 2 IPS screens. I set one up next to an old monitor and the difference is ridiculous. Pics look hideous on the IPS and with the same solid colour Apple generated backgrounds one is clearly grey and one is obviously blue. Additionally contrast and brightness out of the box are horrific.

Now I need to calibrate the IPS screens to the lab. But if I do that, then all the pics that I make look pretty on them will look nasty on clients' uncalibrated junk. What to do.....?

2 more random thoughts...

1. A client once phoned me in a panic. The white frocks they had previewed as spot on on my laptop looked terrible to their web designer. I pointed out that their brightness was WAY too high. But I still had to re-edit.

2. Dessy (who make bridesmaids dresses among other things) SELL pantone swatches of their frocks so you can be sure.
 
I always tell clients who view web galleries that their brightness will be way too high and to account for this.
 
The23rdman said:
I always tell clients who view web galleries that their brightness will be way too high and to account for this.
Click to expand...

On the new screens, the brightness is the least of the problems. I'm trying to think of an easy way to show the difference between these monitors.

Hang on a minute....
 
Yes, it's a big problem and there is no real answer to it but, as others have said, it's important to get it right, even if it looks wrong when the potential buyer views it.

One thing that's vital is to make sure that all of the lighting is the same colour. If it isn't, the shot cannot look right, regardless of the hardware used to view it.
 
Here you go.

This is always going to be rough and ready so don't worry too much about absolutes just the relative look.

This is a basically SOOC file. I opened in CS6, duplicated it and put it on both monitors then took a pic of the screens. Left side is my ancient Dell 2005FPW. I don't use hardware calibration on this but I know if it looks right on there it will look right in pretty much any print medium I use.

Right is a brand new U2312HM. Out of the box settings - except I set the brightness to 50 rather than default 75. It's pretty much what a non-expert client will see viewing that image on an uncalibrated screen.

DSCF3797for.jpg


That's pretty small to avoid creaking the forum - bigger version here https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3951246/filechute/monitors.jpg
 
JonathanRyan said:
Right is a brand new U2312HM. Out of the box settings - except I set the brightness to 50 rather than default 75. It's pretty much what a non-expert client will see viewing that image on an uncalibrated screen.
Click to expand...
That looks like you have it in a wide gamut mode. Which colourspace is the new monitor in (on my U2410, it calls them Preset Modes in the screen menu)?

There are two things here. Firstly, if your screen looks like the print - it isn't calibrated to a known status, it is calibrated to the print process you are using. This is what soft proofing (tick box on the develop module on LR4) is supposed to be for.

What you should be doing is calibrating to Adobe or sRGB (I'm in sRGB as it's universal), develop as normal, and then soft proof with a profile for your printer AND paper you use. You may need to tweak the image in soft proofing mode, but that's technically the correct way to do it - the image for the print should be tweaked to a standard rather than the other way around. This may not suit your style or needs (you may want all the pictures on screen to look like the print).

BTW, you cannot do this by eye unless you have a monitor with the right controls AND a perfect eye. The way a hardware calibrator works is that it parametrically matches your graphics card to your screen as it alters the transform between RGB values in the graphics card and what the screen receives to make sure the screen gets the output correct. It is done like this because most monitors don't have enough controls to be able to get this right and most users don't know how to alter the values to improve things (in fact you can really screw things up if you don't know what you are doing.
 
arad85 said:
What you should be doing is calibrating to Adobe or sRGB (I'm in sRGB as it's universal), develop as normal, and then soft proof with a profile for your printer AND paper you use.
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Nope.

What I should be doing is anything that works for me.

If I know that "looks good on my screen" = "looks good on paper" then why would I look for some hoops to jump through?

I'll be spending some time on the new screens soon. But I have a new computer coming so I'd only have to start again. Meantime I'll do colour editing on the old screen.

Back to the original post....chances are that whatever you do is going to look nasty on some people's screens. Path of least resistance would be to minimise the number of people you affect. Logically that means producing images that look great on the majority of screens but that's going to be very hard - especially when new tech comes out.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Nope.

What I should be doing is anything that works for me.
Click to expand...

Which is why I wrote (the should in the original text was italicised to emphasise the point):


arad85 said:
What you should be doing is calibrating to Adobe or sRGB (I'm in sRGB as it's universal), develop as normal, and then soft proof with a profile for your printer AND paper you use. You may need to tweak the image in soft proofing mode, but that's technically the correct way to do it - the image for the print should be tweaked to a standard rather than the other way around. This may not suit your style or needs (you may want all the pictures on screen to look like the print).
Click to expand...
 
Well its good to know you all suffer as well, at least I don't feel quite such a ****er now. I had my best results on a calibrated(if old) monitor, in a dedicated room with medium grey matt walls and matt white ceiling, windows blacked out using just high, 95 CRI cfl lighting and no other light source. A simple 1000d with a kit lens. I'm now working in two studios (not photographic) and learning to use flash in random daylight through windows, but with lots of Solux halogen true daylight down lights so ...:thinking::bonk: with new lighting learning curve.
On top of that, like Johnathan, I've just got one of those screens and faffing around getting it calibrated, you could light farts with it out of the box:eek: mental brightness and now a blue cast that Im struggling with.

Then all of a sudden I thought, screw this, this is too difficult for me, got ****ed and typed this thread. Today, I am re-assessing my expectations and will make a decision as to how much more effort to put into colour accuracy over the web. I think I may be wasting time on something that can only be a guide to what is available, I've had enough now.

One solution I considered was a shot of the green and the red oxo box on my website with a note that this is spot on for colour our end and if you hold up an oxo box your end you can compare it and assess how your monitor matches ours. Or even better the Dulux paint chart things. The thinking being that most people would have an oxo box or could easily get a paint chart.

There you go Garry massive business opportunity here in colour comparison kit, I'll charge 10% commision:)
 
Steve T said:
There you go Garry massive business opportunity here in colour comparison kit, I'll charge 10% commision:)
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You mean like this?

http://shop.colourconfidence.com/product.php/1186/color-management-check-up-kit

For soft proofing I've scanned a swatch of Tiffany Blue before now. My clients have generally got some of that kicking around to match against their monitor.

Really I'm very fed up with monitor manufacturers right now. It appears they have sacrificed everything to brightness.

I honestly don't know how anybody could ever buy anything over the web any more.
 
Well,I've just found this from Dulux which I think is a fantastic idea but I have to say I can't get their swatches to match what I see on screen, pretty close but still not spot on. So, if Dulux can't show me accurate colour on a new calibrated monitor what chance do I stand, bearing in mind that matt and satin tile glaze colours, like paint swatches, are a lot easier than transparent gloss pastels etc which is the bulk of our colour range.

What a complex and massive subject this is, I have concluded that even if you get it perfect technically, as soon as the eyeball gets involved it all goes out the window.:nuts:

http://www.dulux.co.uk/colours/colourclick/index.jsp
 
Steve T said:
What a complex and massive subject this is, I have concluded that even if you get it perfect technically, as soon as the eyeball gets involved it all goes out the window.:nuts:
Click to expand...

Remember you're not trying to make things "perfect". You're trying to make them the same. Which is why for many users high gamut monitors may be a really bad idea.
 
JonathanRyan said:
You mean like this?

http://shop.colourconfidence.com/product.php/1186/color-management-check-up-kit

For soft proofing I've scanned a swatch of Tiffany Blue before now. My clients have generally got some of that kicking around to match against their monitor.

Really I'm very fed up with monitor manufacturers right now. It appears they have sacrificed everything to brightness.

I honestly don't know how anybody could ever buy anything over the web any more.
Click to expand...

I use two of the 2405 ...all the newer stuff that has a reasonable price tag is very poor when it come to calibrated colour settings...

The Dell 2405's calibrate well with the ColorMunki Photo...I hate to think what I'd do if the monitors go tits up...They dont make them anymore...Any suggestions ?
 
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