Higher Education for old folks

I joined the RPS a few years ago, but let my membership lapse at the first renewal date.

I found it all a little 'pretentious' and severely 'lacking' to be honest, in the same way I've found local clubs to be. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying they are, but I just wasn't a good fit and found that there was nothing they offered that interested me. I really wanted to get on some courses, but found most of them were aimed at beginners. I've been 'snapping' for over fifty years and although there is LOT of room for improvement in my photography, they just weren't the ones to help me.

Lastly, the magazine you get as part of the membership is dreadful and it stinks the whole house out with a nasty 'chemical' smell.
 
I have only once attended any formal photography course (part of a workshop) and that ended with me answering the presenters questions about calibration of which they knew little. My learning style is more about discovery as some have mentioned above. Sitting in a classroom learning things by rote does not suit me. I did once do a informal course with a local professional product photographer. It was based on his MA and a practical approach he had since learnt. I have designed several photography courses in the past and delivered them with others. Interestingly, I learn a lot when designing and preparing courses for others. This is because you discover the odd gaps in knowledge which you need to explain to others. Future Learn now have a ten week photography course but I was not prepared to commit that much time and it costs £450. Leicester University provide a good MA course in Photography but for me, it was too arty and also involved going back to darkrooms again.

Dave
 
I like the whys and wherefores, the science and the how to's behind things that I learn. Photographic courses today are neither technically detailed enough nor scientific inclusive enough. To give a solid foundation about anything.

They are largely about art, and especially conceptual art. The technical and scientific aspects are at best perfunctory.

It is true that the two prime aspects to all photography is seeing and lighting. But beyond that is a vast amount of know how and developed experience.
No modern courses make a serious attempt to major on these things.

A course on portraiture should involve far more than a discussion about a basic flash set up. That the student is barely allowed to touch. And a model that he is certainly not allowed to touch.
Every thing is so perfunctory.
 
I was not particularly interested in a formal photography course when I started this thread, though I have looked at a few options in that line. However tbh I'd rather keep it at hobby level and eventually maybe present a panel for LRPs, I've no aspirations beyond that. I am though totally disgusted that, having paid my ex-wife's way through A level, HND then degree in photography at Plyomouth Art college, she gave up photography a couple of years later after we divorced. What a wasted opportunity (never mind the money angle).
But back to me - despite my comments above about structured courses and wanting a degree or other formal recognition, I am rowing back on that now because the money involved makes it poor value for money. For the cost of a degree (either £13k or £19k depending on course and uni), I could resume flying with my own little aeroplane for a few years, which would be a darn site more fun. Or buy a horse and keep it likewise for a couple of years. So I'm changing tack now and no idea what I will do to satisfy that hunger for study. But I appreciate the ideas above regardless.
 
lindsay56 said:
I am though totally disgusted that, having paid my ex-wife's way through A level, HND then degree in photography at Plyomouth Art college, she gave up photography a couple of years later after we divorced. What a wasted opportunity (never mind the money angle).
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ex-wives, unfortunately have a habit of making us feel that way.


lindsay56 said:
despite my comments above about structured courses and wanting a degree or other formal recognition, I am rowing back on that now because the money involved makes it poor value for money
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If you're less concerned about gaining a formal qualification at the ends its worth seeing what adult education courses the local council back? if you're learning for the joy of learning they often represent far better value for money
 
troutfisher said:
Can you get a student loan, it would seem there is no upper age limit and depending on your income you may pay little or nothing back.

Have a look here

www.gov.uk

Student finance for undergraduates

Student finance - student loans or student grants for tuition fees and living costs, extra help, student loan repayments.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
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Can I just sound a note of caution here. I had a Student Loan, for a course I did late in life, and had been paying back virtually nothing each year due to my income level. But when I started to draw my pension (at a similar level to my previous wage), I was shocked to get a large tax bill. The student loan rules regarded a pension as unearned income and levied a 9% hit on every penny of it.

Now, that may depend on the type of Student Loan - I know they have gone through a few changes over the years, but it is really important to check.
 
The student loan system is very badly run. My son has been subject to several of their mistakes. On one occasion his employer decided to provide my son with a rail card for which he would pay less than 5% of tube and rail fares. He had to buy the card himself then his employer paid him the cost in his monthly salary. This was a substantial amount but a one-off. It is done this way so my son has to pay the appropriate level of tax for this perk. The student loan company then decided the the amount he was paid that month was now his regular salary. So the following month they charged him more than his monthly salary and kept doing this for many months despite my son and his employer telling them that they were wrong. We had to lend him money to cover his basic rent and food for several months and even ask an M.P. to intercede. Eventually it was sorted though they never returned the excess payment. A year later they started overcharging him again so we told him to pay it off and we paid the amount. It was almost 12 months until they would concede it was all paid and the M.P. had to intercede again. It had been a nightmare. My son is not as litigious at me so they got away with it; I would have sued them and ensure they paid substantial compensation. So steer well clear unless you have no choice.

Dave
 
troutfisher said:
Can you get a student loan, it would seem there is no upper age limit and depending on your income you may pay little or nothing back.

Have a look here

www.gov.uk

Student finance for undergraduates

Student finance - student loans or student grants for tuition fees and living costs, extra help, student loan repayments.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
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I’d understood, maybe wrongly, you couldn’t get a student loan if you had a first degree ( there are loans for related postgrad studies)
 
Exactly what I'd read on OU and Student Loan websites.
 
So I thought I'd update here, for anyone interested.
The OU states that certain undergraduate programmes allow some student loan funding even if you already have a degree, so I ate,mpted to register for one and apply for a student loan towards it. However it seems to be inaccurate, as the term used was "limited funding" and the Student Finance organisation just turned me down flat anyway. Faced with more than £3k of fees for a single 60-credit course (360 credits for a degree), I decided I couldn't afford that. Certainly not for something I was doing purely out of interest.
So, looking around again, I was drawn to the University of London distance learning prospectus. I'd come across them many years ago when an RAF colleague was doing a law degree with them, and it looked impressive. Weirdly, for a non-religious person, I have been drawn to doing a Bachelor of Divinity degree with UoL, as it looks interesting, studying a number of religions in a societal context. Initial registration fee and it requires 12 modules to be done (including dissertation module) at £1000 each, over 6 years. That is a bit more affordable and there are options to switch programme if you wish too.

There you go, I'm a student again!
 
Religion is best studied by the non-religious - they have fewer prejudices for/against the subject!

Enjoy the course.
 
I am also non-religious and have studied a few religions as part of historical interest, it helps to see them without any strong prejudice. I even find Richard Dawkins difficult as he is more than a non-believer but an evangelist preaching his beliefs (or lack of them). I plan to still look out for the odd free Future Learn course and not to commit to any more than this. Best of luck and keep us all posted on your progress.

Dave
 
Dave Canon said:
I even find Richard Dawkins difficult as he is more than a non-believer but an evangelist preaching his beliefs (or lack of them).
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So many people seem to think it’s OK being an atheist as long as you keep quiet about it and yet the theists flaunt their beliefs every day :(.
 
lindsay56 said:
When you two have finished comparing your love-in, any further thoughts on studying?
On the photography side, I do wish the C&G still existed with their photography evening courses, I did a couple many years ago and accidentally ended up helping to teach darkroom skills on one, but I'd have liked to go back to those rather than A-leve/HND/Degree photography courses. Did they just get subsumed into BTEc or something?
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My wife is a big one for courses. She's been endlessly on them since coming to the UK about 5 years ago and seems to be able to find them through the pamphlets the local colleges send out or on line. She once spotted a place in town offering adult courses whilst we were out and about, popped in and ended up on a course there. She's done a few English courses and maths too but not for the math as she's easily good enough but for the extra English practice. She's currently awaiting her next translation course and is also helping out as a volunteer helping Thai students struggling on an English course. She has a folder full of certificates now and good for her :D

None of that may help you Lindsay except for knowing that someone out there is enjoying adult learning and has also moved on to volunteering as a result.

Good luck finding something interesting or if not maybe look into helping others again as you've done in the past?
 
sphexx said:
So many people seem to think it’s OK being an atheist as long as you keep quiet about it and yet the theists flaunt their beliefs every day :(.
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We can learn a lot from "If you don't give a damn about the man with bible in his hand lets get out the way and let the gentleman do his thing."
 
Thanks folks.
@Peter123 Yes, £12k total but over upto 6 years, each module is £1000 on this course, they limit you to no more than 4 a year I think (to keep pace with full time students), but of course you have to plan it so as to have done the 12 within 6 years. I've registered for my first two starting October, but may find I can do more than two at some point in the future, but 2 a year seems balanced.

What do I want from it ultimately? A better understanding of some key religions (it covers Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism), and maybe to learn sufficient ancient Greek to spot the bias in the translations of the Christian bible. I'm looking at this as an extension to my sociology studies of the past, and it seems worth considering the role of religion in modern morality (or lack of) and current wars. They do a degree in pastoral counselling which looked interesting but it's based on a heavily Christian syllabus which turned me off.

If anyone is interested in HE distance learning, I'd recommend a look at the University of London offerings.
 
woof woof said:
We can learn a lot from "If you don't give a damn about the man with bible in his hand lets get out the way and let the gentleman do his thing."
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I honestly have no idea what you mean by that!
 
You're (Lindsay) probably aware that some of the bias is due to ambiguous translations as much as deliberate obfuscation, although there's plenty of that! There's also the problem of seeing all the original texts.

Ancient Greek is useful - well, knowing the alphabet means I can read the signposts on Crete a couple of hundred metres before the Roman alphabet versions are readable!
 
Nod said:
There's also the problem of seeing all the original texts.
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You may be an expert in this but I am not at all sure the “original texts” exist :(.
 
Indeed and most of those that have survived (or are believed to have done so) are where few can ever see them.
 
I wouldn't pretend to expect some kind of discovery when I get to the ancient Greek bit, but am only too aware how there are different words in different languages to express a concept - I discovered that in modern German vs English, so ancient languages will doubtless open up similar differences. But that's down the road a bit, I will need to walk before run with this!
 
sphexx said:
You may be an expert in this but I am not at all sure the “original texts” exist :(.
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I remember a sketch (probably involving Dave Allen) where two scribes are writing the bible and each is trying to outdo the other by inventing ever dafter claims. Now that had the ring of truth to it... :naughty:
 
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I recall that the New Testament in English has Joseph's occupation as a Carpenter but the original Greek is more correctly translated as Artisan. It could have been Carpenter but also could have been many other things including Architect. So plenty for you to do.

Dave
 
Dave Canon said:
but the original Greek
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I am always fascinated by the idea that Jesus spoke Greek, though no expert, I thought he was supposed to speak Aramaic?
 
sphexx said:
I am always fascinated by the idea that Jesus spoke Greek, though no expert, I thought he was supposed to speak Aramaic?
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If the guy ever existed, and there's scant evidence of that, he might have been bilingual. It's even possible he would be able to make himself understood in Greek, Aramaic and Latin. Israel was a busy commercial crossroads at that time.
 
Probably at least bilingual and possibly trilingual or even polyglot. If he ever comes back, someone might ask him!!!
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
If the guy ever existed, and there's scant evidence of that, he might have been bilingual. It's even possible he would be able to make himself understood in Greek, Aramaic and Latin. Israel was a busy commercial crossroads at that time.
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I believe the early life of Mohammed, who did exist, is very instructive. I think nothing is known of where he was before he ‘found religion’ in Mecca/Medina and then he hacked his ideas around according to the local situation and now it’s considered by some/many to be set in stone :( — again, I’m no expert on this, only what I remember reading at various times :(.
 
sphexx said:
only what I remember reading at various times :(.
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Something I remember but from I know not where is: "If you want something to be remembered correctly, write it down in 10 words or less. More than that and it will have changed its meaning by tomorrow."
 
sphexx said:
So many people seem to think it’s OK being an atheist as long as you keep quiet about it and yet the theists flaunt their beliefs every day :(.
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You would give every one of the theists a bumpy ride if they preached to you - why should someone else pushing their beliefs to others get treated differently, just because you agree with them.
 
ancient_mariner said:
You would give every one of the theists a bumpy ride if they preached to you - why should someone else pushing their beliefs to others get treated differently, just because you agree with them.
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I don’t disagree with that, I’m criticising the people who say Dawkins should keep quiet :(.
 
I certainly did not say Dawkins should keep quiet. I have read several of his books. For me, he makes a point and keeps on and on and won't let it go which tends to dilute his argument. I used to say I was an Agnostic because it seemed more polite but in recent years have just said atheist as it was more truthful. A few months ago I did a Future Learn Course on Humanism and realised that I am really a humanist but still do not feel I have to nail my banner to anything. If you sign up to be a Humanist they also have a list of principles etc. While I do not significantly disagree with them, I still would not sign up to them. Those who I know who are religious (Christian) are very ignorant about religion and never ask questions. One couple I know seriously could not understand why my wife and I did not go round robbing and murdering as we were not under Gods control. These ignorant people believe that all morals and good behaviour only come from religion. Just because I do not accept Christian teachings, does not mean that I covet my neighbours Ox, Porsche or wish to murder anyone.

Dave
 
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Dave Canon said:
I used to say I was an Agnostic because it seemed more polite but in recent years have just said atheist as it was more truthful.
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It’s taken you a lot longer than I though what I found was that although agnostic is actually a reasonable description, people used to “oh, your not sure of a thing then” or similar, so I soon got fed up with that. :)

When doing my National Service and having access to peoples records I found some described themselves as “freethinkers” and I always liked that.

The Humanist association is helpful with funerals.

If my neighbour had an Ox, I’d bloody covet it! :)
 
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Dave Canon said:
I certainly did not say Dawkins should keep quiet. I have read several of his books. For me, he makes a point and keeps on and on and won't let it go which tends to dilute his argument. I used to say I was an Agnostic because it seemed more polite but in recent years have just said atheist as it was more truthful. A few months ago I did a Future Learn Course on Humanism and realised that I am really a humanist but still do not feel I have to nail my banner to anything. If you sign up to be a Humanist they also have a list of principles etc. While I do not significantly disagree with them, I still would not sign up to them. Those who I know who are religious (Christian) are very ignorant about religion and never ask questions. One couple I know seriously could not understand why my wife and I did not go round robbing and murdering as we were not under Gods control. These ignorant people believe that all morals and good behaviour only come from religion. Just because I do not accept Christian teachings, does not mean that I covet my neighbours Ox, Porsche or wish to murder anyone.

Dave
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Theology is considerably more complex than many understand, who really should educate themselves if they're going to sign up for something.

It's sad when Christians who should be bringing a message of hope instead turn it into a club to hit people with. I understand why they do this, but it helps no-one including themselves.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Theology is considerably more complex than many understand, who really should educate themselves if they're going to sign up for something.

It's sad when Christians who should be bringing a message of hope instead turn it into a club to hit people with. I understand why they do this, but it helps no-one including themselves.
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Some Christians are the most un-Christian people there are! ;)
 
sphexx said:
Some Christians are the most un-Christian people there are! ;)
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I know, and it brings me no pleasure at all. They don't see how they're doing the very things that they claim to stand against, although *sometimes* other people also coach their own lusts, sense of entitlement and demands in terms of love and goodness, rather than seeing them for what they are, and this can enable them to claim Christians are being harsh and without love, because they refuse to agree with what they are sure is wrong.
 
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