Help with using the Flash - 430EX II

Orange Peel

Orange Peel

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I've been playing around with the flash over the weekend while at a family get together. I've just about got my head around bounching the flash but don't understand how to use the functions correctly.

I was shooting on either P or AV. Most of the shots seem a little out of focus or blurred and the shutter speed seemed to be slower than I expected.

I seem to recall somewhere that the 430EX limits the shutter speed when using the flash and that shooting in manual gets around this.

Bit confused, can anyone shed and light :)
 
Orange Peel said:
I've been playing around with the flash over the weekend while at a family get together. I've just about got my head around bounching the flash but don't understand how to use the functions correctly.

I was shooting on either P or AV. Most of the shots seem a little out of focus or blurred and the shutter speed seemed to be slower than I expected.

I seem to recall somewhere that the 430EX limits the shutter speed when using the flash and that shooting in manual gets around this.

Bit confused, can anyone shed and light :)
Click to expand...

When a flash is added to your camera the camera defaults to its flash sync speed which is either 1/125th or 1/250th depending on your model. This means it cannot go FASTER than this (except when using high speed flash but not sure if you have this on the 430 EX)

But it can go SLOWER than this default speed.

If you have your camera set in the custom functions to have AV as automatic when using flash ... it will default that that speed (1/250th) but if you dont, you will be able to bring it down slower (as in manual) which will enable you to expose for the background to let some light in and prevent that black background that is all to common with compact shots, and the flash will expose for the subject if you have it in ettl mode.

P mode will always use 1/60th second to get a bit of background light in. This may seem slow but the subject will be lit by flash and therefore not blurred.

if there is loads of action behind the subject then, yes, that will be a bit blurred.
 
Thanks Janice, I understand it much more now :)

I'll post up some of the inages when I get home to get some opinions on them.
 
The settings work differently depending on what exposure mode you use.

This site is a bit heavy going in places but does explain fully how the flash works
 
for using ttl flash shove camera in manual, the flash wil expose the subject properly and then you can pick a shutter speed to expose the bg how you want
 
I use Av and ETTL on a 40D for fill flash. Camera does it all and balances the flash with ambient. If you need higher shutter speeds than 1/250sec in bright light, switch the flash to High Speed mode and you're sorted - just remember that range is reduced with this setting.

You might want to darken/lighten the flash with +/- compensation on the gun, or do the same with the background with +/- compensation on the camera. Also see the instruction book about using Flash Exposure Lock for off centre subjects.

If you want to prevent blurring in the backgound, Custom Function 1,7 will lock the shutter speed on 1/250sec. Or try the High Speed mode for faster speeds.
 
HoppyUK said:
switch the flash to High Speed mode and you're sorted - just remember that range is reduced with this setting.
Click to expand...

Does this mean we will be better off adding + compensation to the flashgun when using High Speed?
 
Janice said:
Does this mean we will be better off adding + compensation to the flashgun when using High Speed?
Click to expand...

The High Speed mode really works the flash hard - the flash strobes rapidly many thousands of times a second and is effectively continuous light, not flash as such, and gobbles power, so the light isn't as bright and fades away at distance more quickly.

If your pictures are too dark in this mode, the chances are it's because the flash just ran out of puff, in which case asking it to do more with plus compensation won't work. With flash, if you run out of power (which is quite easy to do under any circumstances) lowering the f/number and/or increase ISO usually gets you back in the game :)
 
like others I use AV for fill flash in good light with high speed mode. ... but I watch the shutter speed in poorer light as it can get very slow resulting in camera shake.

In doors I use manual and set 1/125 t f5.6 or F8 and simply let the flash do the work.

I have a 430 ex and also two 580EX flashes.
It would be well to get a 580 at some stage, as it is a lot more powerful especially in High speed mode... it will also act as a master to control other flashes, to give you more options.
 
Thanks for the tips all, this thread has certainly given me some useful info about using my 430ex. It does seem however that no matter what I do, I get exactly the same results.

For example, shooting Av with high speed mode, I get the same exposure at every aperture, foreground and background, now this I expect. However I woudl also expect that I could control the background light somewhat by dialling in some exposure compensation, and the same for flash exposure compensation chaging the exposure of my subject. However they all come out exactly the same.

Am I doing something wrong or have I simply misunderstood?


Terry, your signature just had me swatting at my screen, haha!
 
HoppyUK said:
The High Speed mode really works the flash hard - the flash strobes rapidly many thousands of times a second and is effectively continuous light, not flash as such, and gobbles power, so the light isn't as bright and fades away at distance more quickly.

If your pictures are too dark in this mode, the chances are it's because the flash just ran out of puff, in which case asking it to do more with plus compensation won't work. With flash, if you run out of power (which is quite easy to do under any circumstances) lowering the f/number and/or increase ISO usually gets you back in the game :)
Click to expand...
Does the flash at many times a second ? That means you are working in microseconds. The best of bog standard flash guns will go up to 1/20000 of a second. This calculates out as 50 us. There was a link somewhere on here and the writer states that there is one stretched out flash for the whole of the shot.
 
ScarySquirrel said:
Thanks for the tips all, this thread has certainly given me some useful info about using my 430ex. It does seem however that no matter what I do, I get exactly the same results.

For example, shooting Av with high speed mode, I get the same exposure at every aperture, foreground and background, now this I expect. However I woudl also expect that I could control the background light somewhat by dialling in some exposure compensation, and the same for flash exposure compensation chaging the exposure of my subject. However they all come out exactly the same.

Am I doing something wrong or have I simply misunderstood?


Terry, your signature just had me swatting at my screen, haha!
Click to expand...
One does not use high speed flash in the AV mode.
 
ScarySquirrel said:
Thanks for the tips all, this thread has certainly given me some useful info about using my 430ex. It does seem however that no matter what I do, I get exactly the same results.

For example, shooting Av with high speed mode, I get the same exposure at every aperture, foreground and background, now this I expect. However I woudl also expect that I could control the background light somewhat by dialling in some exposure compensation, and the same for flash exposure compensation chaging the exposure of my subject. However they all come out exactly the same.

Am I doing something wrong or have I simply misunderstood?


Terry, your signature just had me swatting at my screen, haha!
Click to expand...

That bloody sig! I've just taken my screen apart :bonk:

With high speed sync, the light is effectively continuous so shutter speed and aperture and ISO all affect exposure in the same way as they do ambient. I wonder if what is happening is the flash and camera are working in unison to keep your exposure balance correct. Like they are supposed to do when you dial in compensation on the camera ;)

You've got to override that. You need to turn the flash output down, relative to the ambient light, with compensation on the gun.
 
classcams said:
One does not use high speed flash in the AV mode.
Click to expand...

This one does too ;)

I think it's best to use Av, which is the regular mode most people use for flash I think. With Av and HSS on, when the shutter speed goes over 1/250sec (Canon 40D) HSS is automatically enabled, and if the shutter speed drops to 1/250sec or longer, it switches back to normal flash operation. So you can just leave it permanently on if you like.

Of course, you can use HSS in any mode you want - it's just like continuous light.

Yes, it strobes very quickly. Canon states 40-50,000 per second (and it took me flippin ages of google to get that info - source Chuck Westfall Canon USA). That sounds incredibly fast, but when you've got a slit in the focal plane shutter only a mm wide at top speed, it needs to get a fair few pulses in for even exposure. It is virtually continuous light though, as the gas in the tube still glows between pulses - the oscilloscope traces I've seen have a wave shape, not spikey peaks and troughs.
 
classcams said:
When you are in AV mode and using high speed flash, please tell me how you set the speed to 1/8000
Click to expand...

The ambient light does that, if it's bright enough, or if your f/number is low enough, or your ISO is high enough.

If you want to use a low f/number like f/2 or even f/1.4 perhaps for a shallow DoF outdoor portrait, then you'll get 1/8000sec easily.
 
classcams said:
When you are in AV mode and using high speed flash, please tell me how you set the speed to 1/8000
Click to expand...

In Av mode "by definition" you do not set the shutter speed. That is left to the camera.

To set a FIXED 1/8000 you must set it in TV or manual mode. Though the light output of the flash is very low indeed at that shutter speed, so it is not a choice I would ever make.
 
I have yet to see a high shutter speed when in AV mode. It is just the normal speed shown on the view finder. Fitting a Metz flash to the Canon you cannot get HSS. Only on TV or MAN modes. With Canon flash it only ever shows 1/197 for the shutter speed on the properties. So I do not follow your drift.
 
classcams said:
I have yet to see a high shutter speed when in AV mode. It is just the normal speed shown on the view finder. Fitting a Metz flash to the Canon you cannot get HSS. Only on TV or MAN modes. With Canon flash it only ever shows 1/197 for the shutter speed on the properties. So I do not follow your drift.
Click to expand...

With any Canon flash that has high speed facility, it is possible to get any shutter speed right up to 1/8000sec, in any exposure mode (Av, Tv etc). The on-board flash does not do HSS. I don't see why any third party flash that has E-TTL and HSS facility should not act in the same way, but I have not tried it.

Have you tried a Canon gun on a Canon camera? Why do you say it won't work? :thinking:
 
HoppyUK said:
With any Canon flash that has high speed facility, it is possible to get any shutter speed right up to 1/8000sec, in any exposure mode (Av, Tv etc). The on-board flash does not do HSS. I don't see why any third party flash that has E-TTL and HSS facility should not act in the same way, but I have not tried it.

Have you tried a Canon gun on a Canon camera? Why do you say it won't work? :thinking:
Click to expand...
Canon 5D camera, 430EX flashgun. Selected AV mode shutter speed = 200 shown on viewfinder. No matter how bright this never changes. After taking the shot, read properties/summary, this reads 1/197 of a second, unlike in TV mode this shows the shutter speed 1/8000.As I said with a Metz flashgun, cannot select HSS. I do not have a Nikon flash yet to tryon my D90
 
classcams said:
Canon 5D camera, 430EX flashgun. Selected AV mode shutter speed = 200 shown on viewfinder. No matter how bright this never changes. After taking the shot, read properties/summary, this reads 1/197 of a second, unlike in TV mode this shows the shutter speed 1/8000.As I said with a Metz flashgun, cannot select HSS. I do not have a Nikon flash yet to tryon my D90
Click to expand...

On a cannon Camera you can fix the shutter speed in AV mode flash, in the camera settings. on a 40D it is 1/250 sec ( CF1-7 ) I have this turned off, as it is not suitable for fill flash.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
On a cannon Camera you can fix the shutter speed in AV mode flash, in the camera settings. on a 40D it is 1/250 sec ( CF1-7 ) I have this turned off, as it is not suitable for fill flash.
Click to expand...

We are discussing HIGH SPEED FLASH, not the normal shutter speed for flash. BTW My Canon does not go bang :lol:
 
It does work on my 50d qith 430exII, look in the CF I think if you lock the shutter to 1/250th it also locks it in HSS (cameras can be retarded sometimes)
 
classcams said:
We are discussing HIGH SPEED FLASH, not the normal shutter speed for flash. BTW My Canon does not go bang :lol:
Click to expand...

Assuming you have got the flash switched on to high speed mode ;) this sounds like a custom functions setting problem. Have you got it locked on to 1/200sec which is the max x-sync speed on a 5D? As per David and Terry's posts.
 
classcams said:
We are discussing HIGH SPEED FLASH, not the normal shutter speed for flash. BTW My Canon does not go bang :lol:
Click to expand...

I know you are, but you can not take advantage of high speed flash with AV,with a full range of shutter speeds, unless you set the camera as I have explained.

You seem to still have something of a learning curve in front of you. ;)
 
Of course it is locked on the CF/3 at 1/200. Just answer one thing if you can. Why did Metz disable the HSS on AV mode if it can be used ? I think you are all a gang of bluffers
 
If you had followed this thread from the start,you would see that I speak the truth. I see you did not mention old woodenhead telling me I have a steep learning curve in front of me. The silly old fart. Hopalong cassidy seems to be the type that googles and reads a lot but not man enough to admit his error. Anyway I shall be leaving this forum and get back to my designing and making projects for my photography.
 
classcams said:
If you had followed this thread from the start,you would see that I speak the truth. I see you did not mention old woodenhead telling me I have a steep learning curve in front of me. The silly old fart. Hopalong cassidy seems to be the type that googles and reads a lot but not man enough to admit his error. Anyway I shall be leaving this forum and get back to my designing and making projects for my photography.
Click to expand...

Terry speaks the truth. One of this forum's most knowledgeable, helpful, polite and reliable posters.

As for me, maybe you too should read a bit more, starting with the instruction book. And then follow the good advice you've been generously given.

When you have done that, I'm sure your apology for unnecessary rudeness will be acceptable.
 
Classcams, when you return after your suspension, please think about how you post. Personal insults and rudeness will not be tolerated.
 
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