Help with HSS - D750, SB-700, YN622N-TX

Turbo-G · 31 Jul 2016

Hi All,
I'm fairly new to OCF photography, but understand the basics when shooting in full manual.

My current setup is:

Camera: D750
Flash: Nikon SB-700
Trigger/Reciever: Yongnuo YN622N-TX

When shooting in manual, i have the OCF unit in TTL, and the trigger in Manual mode - giving me full remote control of the OCF, from the trigger unit.

In my settings, I have enabled Auto-FP on camera at 1/250, allowing me to raise my shutter speed above my Camera's sync limit (1/250). When I do raise the shutter, "FP" (= High Speed Sync) appears on the LCD of the trigger, as expected...

However, I can't seem to determine whether HSS is actually working or not?! I seem to get the same results with the trigger set to Manual mode, as I do when set to "SS" (= Super Sync) mode, e.g. darker banding towards the bottom of the frame, at say 1/2000 s.

Any help here would be appreciated, by someone potentially using similar equipment!

Many thanks,
Grant

sk66 · 31 Jul 2016

Turbo-G said:
However, I can't seem to determine whether HSS is actually working or not?! I seem to get the same results with the trigger set to Manual mode, as I do when set to "SS" (= Super Sync) mode, e.g. darker banding towards the bottom of the frame, at say 1/2000 s.

HSS is not working... My guess is that the 622 "super sync" mode is actually "tail sync" and not HSS (I've never used them). For true HSS to work w/ any trigger I've ever used it has to be set to TTL.

Phil V · 31 Jul 2016

sk66 said:
HSS is not working... My guess is that the 622 "super sync" mode is actually "tail sync" and not HSS (I've never used them). For true HSS to work w/ any trigger I've ever used it has to be set to TTL.

That^

mike weeks · 31 Jul 2016

Flash needs to be in TTL, even if shooting manually for such features

Mike

mike weeks · 31 Jul 2016

SS is super sync whic is tail sync and not HSS.

Mike

Turbo-G · 31 Jul 2016

Ah, that would make sense then. So, just tried again both on camera, and off camera with either the flash set to TTL, or the trigger set to TTL - and I appear to get an even exposure even at 1/4000s (no dark banding).

So, is that common then, for HSS to only work in TTL modes? I had assumed it would also work in Manual for some reason, unless its unique to my particular setup (apologies for the ignorance here!).

I guess HSS is only really useful if shooting outside for example in bright conditions, when wanting to use a larger aperture. Are there any other use cases for HSS?

Many thanks for the advice.
Grant

mike weeks · 31 Jul 2016

Turbo-G said:
Ah, that would make sense then. So, just tried again both on camera, and off camera with either the flash set to TTL, or the trigger set to TTL - and I appear to get an even exposure even at 1/4000s (no dark banding).

So, is that common then, for HSS to only work in TTL modes?

No you can set in manually on the 622N TX but the rest of the system needs to be set to work from the transmitted signal, so although set to TTL they are actually working manual.

Mike

sk66 · 31 Jul 2016

Turbo-G said:
I guess HSS is only really useful if shooting outside for example in bright conditions, when wanting to use a larger aperture. Are there any other use cases for HSS?

When you want a high SS to freeze motion.
Flash alone won't freeze much motion in most typical situations...

Turbo-G · 1 Aug 2016

mike weeks said:
No you can set in manually on the 622N TX but the rest of the system needs to be set to work from the transmitted signal, so although set to TTL they are actually working manual.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Unsure whether I'm understanding you correctly though - do you mean set HSS manually on the yongnuo trigger? When shooting normally with OCF, I would have SB-700 set to TTL, but yongnuo trigger set to manual anyway - so effectively giving me remote manual control of the OCF.... I get that.

Does the same principle apply when wanting to use HSS? Do I keep the same modes enabled, and just raise shutter above my max of 1/250s, and things are taken care of? Or do I need to tweak some settings on either flash, or trigger?

If working, I guess I was expecting to see some indication of pulsing, rather than a single flash - e.g similar to the effect the modelling flash has. But, I could just be mistaken based on what I'd read! I had also read that the SB-700 was the first Nikon flash to not have a HSS indicator on the LCD too....

Apologies for the questions!

Thanks,
Grant

mike weeks · 1 Aug 2016

No, HSS is set automatically by the camera (the Auto FP setting) and the trigger should just transmit it. Flash needs to be in TTL mode to receive and understand the signals.

The 622N TX can either be set to TTl or manual.i.e. flash power controlled automatically by camera or manually by the trigger

No idea about the SB700 as never used one

Because the camera decides to transmit the HSS signal at the time the button is pressed you will not see anything on many flashes.

Some flashes like the Godox AD360 have to be manually set in HSS whereas the MKII version of it being TTL does it automatically.

Mike

sk66 · 1 Aug 2016

mike weeks said:
The 622N TX can either be set to TTl or manual.i.e. flash power controlled automatically by camera or manually by the trigger

I'm not sure about this... Originally the camera was in auto FP, trigger in manual, and flash in TTL. You're saying it should work as HSS, but it was working as "manual tail sync" instead.
I believe, with the transmitter in manual it is only transmitting the "early fire" command from the camera being in FP. I think everything has to be in TTL for true HSS to work, including the transmitter (TTL throughput). I can't say for certain as I've never used Yongnuo, but that's the way it works with all of the other TTL transmitter systems I've used.

(exceptions being something like the AD360v1)

Turbo-G said:
If working, I guess I was expecting to see some indication of pulsing, rather than a single flash - e.g similar to the effect the modelling flash has. But, I could just be mistaken based on what I'd read! I had also read that the SB-700 was the first Nikon flash to not have a HSS indicator on the LCD too....

The multiple flashes will look like one to you. And yes, they left "FP" off of the SB700's display.

In TTL HSS in order to adjust the flash output you need to use TTL FEC (not manual).

mike weeks · 1 Aug 2016

sk66 said:
I'm not sure about this... Originally the camera was in auto FP, trigger in manual, and flash in TTL. You're saying it should work as HSS, but it was working as "manual tail sync" instead.
I believe, with the transmitter in manual it is only transmitting the "early fire" command from the camera being in FP. I think everything has to be in TTL for true HSS to work, including the transmitter (TTL throughput). I can't say for certain as I've never used Yongnuo, but that's the way it works with all of the other TTL transmitter systems I've used.

SS on the 622 is to adjust the early fire signal timing which would mean the trigger is generating it
HSS is just a signal which the trigger can see so will check on some of my other bits to see but pretty sure I have done manual power HSS on many occasions

Mike

sk66 · 1 Aug 2016

The problem is, without a TTL signal the speedlight doesn't know it should switch to pulsed (FP) output. And there is no way to force it into it manually like there is with the AD360v1.
Since the speedlight *always pulses for the highest SS (1/8000) there's no reason why it "logically" couldn't work with manual power settings (instead of FEC)... I just don't think anyone has implemented that. But I could be wrong...

*I believe that is the case for Nikon speedlights anyway.

mike weeks · 1 Aug 2016

sk66 said:
The problem is, without a TTL signal the speedlight doesn't know it should switch to pulsed (FP) output. And there is no way to force it into it manually like there is with the AD360v1.
Since the speedlight *always pulses for the highest SS (1/8000) there's no reason why it "logically" couldn't work with manual power settings (instead of FEC)... I just don't think anyone has implemented that. But I could be wrong...

*I believe that is the case for Nikon speedlights anyway.

I think you are missing a big point and that is the triggers like the 622N use the TTL signals to communicate even when the TX is set to manual (which is why you have to have the flashgun set to TTL to work) or at least that is my understanding

Mike

Kodiak Qc · 1 Aug 2016

•

HSS is the new hip feature in small flashes
and all are not capable to perform in this way!

mike weeks · 1 Aug 2016

Kodiak Qc said:
•

HSS is the new hip feature in small flashes
and all are not capable to perform in this way!

Not new, been there for a long time, in big flashes it is new

Mike

sk66 · 1 Aug 2016

mike weeks said:
I think you are missing a big point and that is the triggers like the 622N use the TTL signals to communicate even when the TX is set to manual (which is why you have to have the flashgun set to TTL to work) or at least that is my understanding

Mike

They all use the TTL pin to adjust the flash's power setting when the transceiver is set to manual... You could set the flash to manual and the transceiver will still trigger it, you just loose remote power adjustment. I.e. the transceiver isn't passing TTL *commands from the camera unless it is in TTL mode. Otherwise, what is the purpose of it having a separate TTL mode?
Everything I've ever used has been this way, and the original conditions indicate that's true for the Yongnuos as well.
I've managed to inadvertently be in tail sync before. With the camera set to auto FP it can go into a SS above x-sync and will then send the trigger signal early. And if the flash duration is long enough it will/may give decent results.

*flash timing will still be dependent on the camera's mode when the transceiver is in manual.

mike weeks · 1 Aug 2016

I think we are arguing the same thing, I never send that it sent TTL commands in manual mode, I said it uses the TTL commands to pass info

Mike

Turbo-G · 1 Aug 2016

Just to bring things back around - am I doing things correctly currently?

e.g. Camera Auto FP enabled, Flash unit set to TTL (to receive inbound signals from trigger), and trigger itself set to Manual - raise shutter speed above threshold (e.g. 1/250th) and away I go?

Thanks,
Grant

mike weeks · 2 Aug 2016

Turbo-G said:
Just to bring things back around - am I doing things correctly currently?

e.g. Camera Auto FP enabled, Flash unit set to TTL (to receive inbound signals from trigger), and trigger itself set to Manual - raise shutter speed above threshold (e.g. 1/250th) and away I go?

Thanks,
Grant

Grant,

it is my belief that that will work

Mike

sk66 · 2 Aug 2016

Turbo-G said:
Just to bring things back around - am I doing things correctly currently?

e.g. Camera Auto FP enabled, Flash unit set to TTL (to receive inbound signals from trigger), and trigger itself set to Manual - raise shutter speed above threshold (e.g. 1/250th) and away I go?

Thanks,
Grant

Isn't that what you were doing to start with? I believe that what you get is "manual tail sync" and not true HSS. The only difference between this and "super sync" is that the super sync mode has the ability to adjust/optimize the flash timing.

You should be able to tell pretty easily by using a very low flash power setting, which will have too short of a duration to work with tail sync.

metroman · 4 Aug 2016

I refer to David Carrico's BlogSpot for info on my Yongnuo triggers
http://davidcarrico.blogspot.gr/search?updated-max=2014-06-29T10:52:00-05:00&max-results=7

Have a scroll through, there is a number of useful videos on there.

Turbo-G · 4 Aug 2016

Thanks all for the input. Will have a play over the weekend and report back.

Grant

redsnappa · 11 Aug 2016

Kodiak Qc said:
HSS is the new hip feature in small flashes

My 10 year old Sigma flash has HSS capability so not so new. Definitely hip though.

mike weeks · 21 Aug 2016

sk66 said:
Isn't that what you were doing to start with? I believe that what you get is "manual tail sync" and not true HSS. The only difference between this and "super sync" is that the super sync mode has the ability to adjust/optimize the flash timing.

You should be able to tell pretty easily by using a very low flash power setting, which will have too short of a duration to work with tail sync.

The SB700 at max power has a flash duration of 1/1042 which is the t.5 time, so using a rough approximation that t.1 is generally about 3 times as long we get approx 1/350, maybe long enough for tail sync so unless at ful pwer it cant be tail sync.

Anyway that is my preferred way of shooting so just tested a couple of different Nikon bodies and a number of different flashes and it is proper pulsed HSS (high speed sync) and not tail sync

Mike

sk66 · 21 Aug 2016

mike weeks said:
it is proper pulsed HSS (high speed sync) and not tail sync

Cool... I've been wrong before. But it begs the question as to what the original problem was (manual exposure, manual trigger, TTL flash= banding).

As a side note, the other day I noticed that my SB800 indicates FP even when in manual mode (high SS, TTL connection)...

mike weeks · 21 Aug 2016

sk66 said:
Cool... I've been wrong before. But it begs the question as to what the original problem was (manual exposure, manual trigger, TTL flash= banding).

I stopped using the 622N when I went Godox but kept it as a travelling reserve. Tried it with my new D500 and was having all sorts of problems, quick check of the firmware and I was on 1.05 and there is a newer 1.06, 3 or 4 minutes later and all resolved. Secondly I have heard of some 3rd party flash triggers not fitting well on the D750.

SS (Super Sync) is to adjust when the flash fires which can sometimes give the peak at slightly a different time which will mean sync at one or 2 speeds above sync speed and also useful for tail sync but not HSS.

Mike