Help newbie to strobe lighting

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Gentabout

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Dean
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Hi Guys and girls,

This is my first post here and after spending most of the morning between customer calls reading threads i recon that someone will be able to help me.

Ok my problem is that i am setting up a basic studio area in one of our unused offices so that i can improve the product shots for our next catalogue and website. I spoke to a local camera shop/studio about what we needed and followed his advice but i am not getting the results i was hoping for, infact the shots are worse than we used to get.

The gear i have, Sony A200 camera with a 18-70mm lens and a 75-300 lens. I bought on his recommendations this kit http://www.prolinestudio.co.uk/kit/show/4 along with this http://www.prolinestudio.co.uk/product/show/24. We also bought a roll of white backing paper and a roll of green. On his recomendations this is all we would need to get shots of the model aircraft and helicopters.

First problem is getting the strobes to fire at what seems to be the right time, to start with i allowed them to trigger from the camera flash, they seem to make no difference to the shot just leaving the white background dull and sort of grey/brown. Taking 2 shots one with the strobes on and one with them off i can not see any difference.

The trigger system will not fit the Sony hot shoe so i can not use that until i get a adapter or a different system :shake:. I have tried the strobes in so many different positions and tried what feels like every settting in the camera but i have hit a brick wall.

Can someone help please?.

Dean
 
My guess (and it's just a guess) is that your flash is firing a pre-flash that is triggering the studio flash before the shutter on the camera opens, therefore the flash is firing too late.

You need to disable the pre flash, which may or may not be possible - read the instruction book to find out.

But using a camera flash to trigger your studio flash isn't the way to go anyway. Your camera has a non-standard hotshoe, you need to get an adapter, they are normally available for very little money on Ebay. Once you have that you will be able to use your radio trigger.

Once you're up and running you need to learn how to use it, and it doesn't sound as if you've had very good support from your supplier, so you might want to ask questions here.
 
It may help to post some shots with the settings you used on camera and the power settings used with flash
 
I think it's an FS1100 you need Dean which will give you a PC connection and you can use a cable to connect the PC port to your likghts.

Where abouts are you based?
 
Garry Edwards said:
My guess (and it's just a guess) is that your flash is firing a pre-flash that is triggering the studio flash before the shutter on the camera opens, therefore the flash is firing too late.

You need to disable the pre flash, which may or may not be possible - read the instruction book to find out.

But using a camera flash to trigger your studio flash isn't the way to go anyway. Your camera has a non-standard hotshoe, you need to get an adapter, they are normally available for very little money on Ebay. Once you have that you will be able to use your radio trigger.

Once you're up and running you need to learn how to use it, and it doesn't sound as if you've had very good support from your supplier, so you might want to ask questions here.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good call - flash is firing too early (not late).
 
Hi Guys.

Thank you for all your help so far, i have cured the problem with the stobes not being in sync with the camera by using the proper Sony hot shoe adaptor. I can now get the strobes to fire at the right time and get them to have a effect on the image. What i now can not do is actually get a decent shot.

Setting all this up is completly new to me and i am on a very rapid learning curve but have very little time to play at the moment due to masses of work that is all needing finishing at the same time but i am trying to read a bit and try something as and when i get a minute or 2. I have uploaded a couple of images that i hope someone will be able to help with as i am sure the results can be better. I think i have the strobes in the wrong place maybe or the camera setup wrong. Help please.





Dean
 
I'm not sure what you're unhappy about - conflicting shadows and highlights due to light coming from opposite directions?
Burned out highlights caused by too small a softbox too far away?
Poor definition of the helicopter blades (in particular) caused by photographing them against a white background?
Uneven exposure of the background?
Insignificant look to the products caused by the camera being too high?
Colour cast on the background due either to inconsistent colour from the different lights, different colours on the different diffusers or just lower exposure showing up the difference?

Quite a few areas you can improve, I suggest you deal with them one at a time, it will be difficult to get them all right at the same time
 
I was hoping for a whiter background or at least a more even colour and more vibrant colours on the helicopter. The canopy on the model is actually a more vibrant green than it is in the shot more like a kawasaki green but as i turn the srobes up further it becomes yellow in places.

I would like less shadow aswell.
 
Gentabout said:
I was hoping for a whiter background or at least a more even colour and more vibrant colours on the helicopter. The canopy on the model is actually a more vibrant green than it is in the shot more like a kawasaki green but as i turn the srobes up further it becomes yellow in places.

I would like less shadow aswell.
Click to expand...

Well, I'll explain my previous answer in more detail.

Less shadow - move the light much closer, this will also produce diffused specular highlights instead of the over bright specular highlights in your pics.
And don't have a light each side, this just produces 2 sets of shadows. Replace one light with a reflector

False colour on helicopter - cured by moving light closer and by correct exposure

Background not white - you must light the background separately. You also need to set a custom white balance on your camera.

Also, you need to position the camera much lower and my guess is that the poor resolution is due to using too small a lens aperture.
 
And to give you a more nuts & bolts answer, I would move the softbox light slightly to one side of the camera but very close to the subject, put a reflector card on the opposite side of the camera and move the softbox light to behind the set, pointing downwards and forwards to create a fill light on the subject and a light on the background.
 
^^^ :thumbs:

Give Garry's advice a whirl (helicopter, whirl... :shrug: ) and let's see what you get.

Balancing the lights and exposure will be tricky but posting another snap of your set up will help a lot.
 
OK, i have had a bit more of a play but still don't seem to be winning.

I have tried all sorts of places for the strobes but can not get a satisfactory picture, well what i think it OK. Have played around with the WB in the camera and the effect is better but still not what i am looking for. Help.

Would someone please put me out of my misery and tell me where the strobes should be, a simple diagram would be great as my brain will not compute any more.



This actual shot is not that bad apart from the background is grey and not a consistent colour. I really want a bright background with a consistent colour across the whole screen, i could PP the image but the idea is to be able to get a lot of images very quickly for use on our website without having to do lots of PP work. At the moment we crop the backgrounds out in photoshop but this takes to much time. I also want to use the images in out new catalogue so will be taking the backgrounds out of these too and want to make things easier for myself.

Thanks again.

Dean
 
I'd be going for the softbox overhead above the camera pointing at the subject and background, your softbox is a little small for this though, then the other head with a standard reflector to the left of the camera at the same level (as the camera), pointing around 45 degrees to the subject. I'd also add white reflector card to the left and right of the subject to bounce some extra light into the shadows

It's very hard to describe a 3d lighting set-up in writing!
 
Well, I think that's much better but I gave you 3 specific pieces of advice that you haven't followed.
I don't claim to have all the answers but I do do this for a living so I think it's worth trying my suggestions...
1. The camera is far too high
2. I suggested that you put your little softbox above and behind the softbox, pointing downwards and a bit forwards
3. I suggested that you put your softbox much, much closer to the subject

You've followed my suggestions up to a point but you need to be much more radical.
As for getting a pure white background, if this really important to you then the best way is to shoot on acrylic, not on paper - then you can underlight it, the exposure will be critical but it will work OK provided that your light produces consistent output.

There are some things you can bodge well, product shots aren't really one of them - you need to spend a bit to get the right equipment and you have to invest time in learning. But you will be rewarded by much higher sales.
 
I've done a sketch which may help

flash.jpg


The light to the left of the camera will need to be set 2 possibly 3 stops down on the main overhead softbox
 
you can see why I didn't take up drawing as a career now:lol:
 
Hairyduck said:
you can see why I didn't take up drawing as a career now:lol:
Click to expand...
Your drawing is much better than mine, and I like your monopod:lol:
But, with respect, that is the opposite of the type of lighting I would use for this - but, to the OP, why not try it? I don't have all the answers and you'll only learn by doing.

Unless of course you splash out nearly £6 on my still life tutorial...
 
It was a very common set-up I used to use in the old days for doing shots like these, especially where the subjects were plastic and fairly dark (in the case of the transmitter). They used to appear 6 foot high in tescos so they can't have been that bad ;)
 
Hairyduck said:
It was a very common set-up I used to use in the old days for doing shots like these, especially where the subjects were plastic and fairly dark (in the case of the transmitter). They used to appear 6 foot high in tescos so they can't have been that bad ;)
Click to expand...
I don't question your ability, just pointing out that the setup you've posted won't create diffused specular highlights or the kind of lighting on the background that the OP is looking for.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well, I think that's much better but I gave you 3 specific pieces of advice that you haven't followed.
I don't claim to have all the answers but I do do this for a living so I think it's worth trying my suggestions...
1. The camera is far too high
2. I suggested that you put your little softbox above and behind the softbox, pointing downwards and a bit forwards
3. I suggested that you put your softbox much, much closer to the subject
Click to expand...

Thanks once again, i am trying everything i can but some things did not work or i misunderstood and made it worse. I will try again but i will also answer the above.

1.) i did lower the camera about 8 inches and that is the height of the last shot, i sort of like the angle but will try lower. I probally went to low at one point and just ended up with a side on shot that looked daft.
2.) ? Little softbox, i only have the one and the brolly. At the moment i only have the 2 tripods as show in the picture above so it is difficult to get the lights above the item.
3.) I tired the softbox much much closer and it is still much closer that above but if i go any closer than it is now i found the front of the canopy on the Helicopter was going yellow.

I tried to just download your guide went through the paypal part and the money went but i can not now find how to download it.

I will go get a quick shot of where i have everything set at the moment and a few other items we need to shoot. I am realy looking for a nice simple positions that i can leave all the strobes so that we don't have to play around with every shot. I know this will compromise some but until we get Xmas out of the way or i get more staff i am having to compromise a lot.

Dean
 
Dean,

Your softbox is much too small for this job. In fact, it is much too small for most things.
Looking at the picture of your setup, it should be possible to get the (softbox light) above and behnd the set.

What I suggested was the softbox above and behind the set and the umbrella (which is much bigger) as your key light. The 'yellow' on the helicopter is caused by too small a lighting source, which won't happen (or at least won't be as bad) if you use the umbrella and have it really close.

I tried to just download your guide went through the paypal part and the money went but i can not now find how to download it.
Click to expand...
The automatic download system through PayPal has been switched off because some bright spark found a way to steal my tutorials. The tutorial was sent to you immediately as an email attachment, if you check your inbox you should find it there.

I will go get a quick shot of where i have everything set at the moment and a few other items we need to shoot. I am realy looking for a nice simple positions that i can leave all the strobes so that we don't have to play around with every shot. I know this will compromise some but until we get Xmas out of the way or i get more staff i am having to compromise a lot.
Click to expand...
Using the same setup for every shot isn't ideal but it will produce much better results than you're getting now, once you've nailed it. Feel free to ring me if you want any specific advice.
 
There is nothing wrong with the equipment you are using to photograph objects of this size.
However it's how you use them that's important I have details of a light setup that could work on this page

http://www.mccordall.com/photography/lessons/still-life-and-product-photography/

Or just go to
http://www.mccordall.com/photography and look at the lessons page
Ps The light on the left can be replaced by a reflector. If you are into photoshop add black card around the left hand side of the helicopter and remove it in retouching, this will give you better colours.
Best of luck Phillip
 
Phillip Mac said:
There is nothing wrong with the equipment you are using to photograph objects of this size.
However it's how you use them that's important I have details of a light setup that could work on this page

http://www.mccordall.com/photography/lessons/still-life-and-product-photography/

Or just go to
http://www.mccordall.com/photography and look at the lessons page
Ps The light on the left can be replaced by a reflector. If you are into photoshop add black card around the left hand side of the helicopter and remove it in retouching, this will give you better colours.
Best of luck Phillip
Click to expand...

The diagram in the link above is exactly how I would do it. That's how I start almost every table-top and usually the way I finish. Basically just one big softbox on top, and a second fill light which moves around a little to control shadows and add highlights as necessary. A reflector is often just as good and often easier for that.

The equipment I would suggest would be a medium/large softbox on a boom, a smaller one for fill/effects, and a reflector on a stand/support. As mentioned, a light table with underlighting is pretty much the only way to get clean white backgrounds easily and consistently with different subjects but even they have drawbacks, ie you lose any shadows which are sometimes desirable.

I think a small amount of cleaning up in post processing is perhaps the best way to do pure white regardless of the kit you have. The basic problem is that white paper backgrounds are not pure white and in order to blow it to pure white you have to over expose it. In situations like this, that is impossible without over exposing the subject at the same time.
 
Gentabout - have you actually costed the amount of time your spending on this V just giving the job to a competent professional photographer? Your problem has less to do with equipment and more about knowledge and technique which, even with great help from members here, you're not going to learn in 5 minutes. It can take years!
 
HoppyUK said:
The diagram in the link above is exactly how I would do it. That's how I start almost every table-top and usually the way I finish. Basically just one big softbox on top, and a second fill light which moves around a little to control shadows and add highlights as necessary. A reflector is often just as good and often easier for that.

The equipment I would suggest would be a medium/large softbox on a boom, a smaller one for fill/effects, and a reflector on a stand/support. As mentioned, a light table with underlighting is pretty much the only way to get clean white backgrounds easily and consistently with different subjects but even they have drawbacks, ie you lose any shadows which are sometimes desirable.

I think a small amount of cleaning up in post processing is perhaps the best way to do pure white regardless of the kit you have. The basic problem is that white paper backgrounds are not pure white and in order to blow it to pure white you have to over expose it. In situations like this, that is impossible without over exposing the subject at the same time.
Click to expand...

That lighting setup isn't exactly what I suggested but is close and will work perfectly well. And I agree tht it really is about knowledge rather than equipment, but in this case I strongly believe that a much larger softbox is needed, both to control the specular highlights and to light the paper.
 
When you have the knowledge (as Garry has) then you'll know you can't ever buy a softbox that's too big! :D Bigger the better always.
 
Garry Edwards said:
That lighting setup isn't exactly what I suggested but is close and will work perfectly well. And I agree tht it really is about knowledge rather than equipment, but in this case I strongly believe that a much larger softbox is needed, both to control the specular highlights and to light the paper.
Click to expand...

awp said:
When you have the knowledge (as Garry has) then you'll know you can't ever buy a softbox that's too big! :D Bigger the better always.
Click to expand...

:thumbs:
 
AliB said:
lol@ the boys and "Size matters" ;)
Click to expand...

Well, it does! :D I told EG Gary the same thing the other day. Perhaps he will listen to a woman's perspective Ali ;)
 
Garry Edwards said:
Dean,

Your softbox is much too small for this job. In fact, it is much too small for most things.
Looking at the picture of your setup, it should be possible to get the (softbox light) above and behnd the set.

What I suggested was the softbox above and behind the set and the umbrella (which is much bigger) as your key light. The 'yellow' on the helicopter is caused by too small a lighting source, which won't happen (or at least won't be as bad) if you use the umbrella and have it really close.
Click to expand...


Thanks Garry that made more sense, this is all new to me but i am getting there i think. I have spent most of today reading and studying all sorts of info including the article you emailed me and taking everyones advice and pooling it together in to something i understand seems to be getting results.

I have now got the following set up.


I tried the soft box pointing down at the item but i ended up with brighter sections that no matter how i adjusted the strobes power i could not get anything that looked half as good as yesterdays results. I then set the rear strobe to bounce of the ceiling and the spread of light behind the item became much better and below are some results. I am not sure which of the 3 i like and i know the layout of the items could be better but these are just test shots to get a idea of what effects what.





I think i was trying originally to get a shot that was just not possible. But i think i am improving and there is probally much more i can adjust in the camera yet. WB is set to flash -3 probally need to tweak that, the shutter is at 1/100 f10 iso 200 and all at 28mm.

I am realy begining to enjoy this as now i can see results and things make more sense. Thank you all so much.

As for getting a pro in to do the shots or taking them to someone, i had considered that but with a current product list of well over 3000 items that is going to double over the next 12 months i would be better to learn what to do for the future.

Thanks

Dean
 
I tried the soft box pointing down at the item but i ended up with brighter sections that no matter how i adjusted the strobes power
Click to expand...
That's because it's far too small. Bouncing it off the ceiling is very sensible, however it has also resulted in too large an area of light, and I think it may have caused some flare too.

There is very definately flare from the umbrella. I can't be sure, but I don't think you're using a lenshood. You need to. In fact, with a shoot through umbrella in that position you really need a flag (just a piece of black card) between the lens and the umbrella, to stop light from the umbrella striking the lens.

All in all though, now that you've followed my advice:) your results are far, far better.
Here is one of your shots, tweaked a little in PS
helicopter.jpg

Photoshop is part of the photographic process, it's far better to get the shot as close to perfect in the camera as possible and to use PS only to turn a first class shot into an outstanding one, so I'm not suggesting that PS is any kind of substitute for good lighting. It isn't.
Nor am I saying that my tweaking is anywhere near as good as it could be, just something I did while I was on the phone.

So, lighting position now about right for this shot, but get a much bigger softbox behind the set, pointing down/forwards. And flag the lens + fit a lenshood.
Is my still life tutorial worth the £6 it cost you?
 
Hi Garry,

Thank you very much for your help, and thanks to everyone else aswell you have all been a great help.

I will investigate getting a larger soft box but the budget for that is not available at the moment. I am using the supplied lens hood that came with the Sony Lens. It is only very small though and nothing like the one i have on the Nikon. I will have a play with making up a flag to put between the lens and the umbrella.

What difference would it make if i pulled the umbrella closer to the strobe or pushed it further away?.

I am also going to pull the rear strobe a little to the left as you look at it to even the light a little more.

Garry, I have been reading the still life tuturial and it is helping understand more. I have some time free this weekend at home so i am going to set myself up a area and have a play about.

Dean
 
I will investigate getting a larger soft box but the budget for that is not available at the moment.
Click to expand...
Just get a much bigger one. You need it, and if you're hoping to make money from selling your products you need to spend a bit more to get much bettere sales.

What difference would it make if i pulled the umbrella closer to the strobe or pushed it further away?.
Click to expand...
As per my tutorial. Further away will make the light smaller in relative terms, so the light will be harsher, opposite effect if you move it closer. But, using a shoot through umbrella with an inadequate lenshood closer will almost certainly make the flare problem worse.
I am using the supplied lens hood that came with the Sony Lens. It is only very small though and nothing like the one i have on the Nikon.
Click to expand...
Something else that you need to spend a little bit of money on then. Lens hoods are vitally important in studio photography. IMO the cheap rubber ones are often the best at a budget price, the very best of all are the expensive bellows ones, which adjust to exactly the length they need to be.
 
Thanks again.

After your response i had a thought and remembered that the 70-300 lens had a larger lens hood on it so i have just been and taken the same shot with that fitted but can not realy tell much difference but i am sure there must be something. I am now going to try the umbrella closer to the strobe to see what effect it has.

Dean
 
The 70-300 hood will (should) be physically bigger than that on a shorter lens, simply becaue it can be and needs to be much bigger to be effective with a longer focal length.
What I'm saying is that a large lens hood on a longer lens isn't necessarily any better than a small one on a shorter lens.

What you really need is a lens hood that can be adjusted to suit the lens perfectly. That's where bellows hoods come into their own, because they can be adjusted to nearly but not quite vignette at the corners. No lens hoods made for zoom lenses can ever be effienct, except at the extreme wide angle end.
 
Garry Edwards said:
As per my tutorial. Further away will make the light smaller in relative terms, so the light will be harsher, opposite effect if you move it closer. But, using a shoot through umbrella with an inadequate lenshood closer will almost certainly make the flare problem worse.
Click to expand...

Is that what Dean meant? Or sliding the brolly up/down the shaft?

Something else that you need to spend a little bit of money on then. Lens hoods are vitally important in studio photography. IMO the cheap rubber ones are often the best at a budget price, the very best of all are the expensive bellows ones, which adjust to exactly the length they need to be.
Click to expand...

I'm a firm believer in good lens hoods, but as Gary says no hood for a zoom can be optimum at anything but the short end.

I use a piece of black card BluTacked to the front of my zoom lens hood, with a rectangle cut out that is just fractionally larger than the field of view at the focal length I want to use. It gives much more shade at long focal lengths and works very well. Fine in the studio, if a little ungainly in the field ;)
 
HoppyUK said:
Is that what Dean meant? Or sliding the brolly up/down the shaft?



I'm a firm believer in good lens hoods, but as Gary says no hood for a zoom can be optimum at anything but the short end.

I use a piece of black card BluTacked to the front of my zoom lens hood, with a rectangle cut out that is just fractionally larger than the field of view at the focal length I want to use. It gives much more shade at long focal lengths and works very well. Fine in the studio, if a little ungainly in the field ;)
Click to expand...

You're right, I should read the post properly:)
Virtually the same answer though - if the brolly is closer to the light then the size of the effective light source (the bit lit by the flash) is smaller and therefore harsher, and is also further away.
 
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