has image manipulation gone to far????

zoe_andrews

zoe_andrews

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Zoe
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Hi to all you photographers out there

I would really love your help!! I need lots of views and opinions along with examples if you have any on the following questions?
Do you feel image manipulation has gone to far??
[*]Are people losing trust in images compared to what they used to?
[*]Have any of you gone from the dark room techniques to photoshop? what are you views and opinions on this??
[*]Has the photographer industry become harder because of photoshop?
[*]Any other opinions on image manipulation write them down please im interested to know????


Thanx guys x
 
Are you conducting research for a report?
 
Hey Zoe...

1:
Do I think it's gone too far? Far too subjective, personally I very rarely think a photo has been taken too far.

2:
TRUST is gone (imo). Biggest question I here from someone unsure of how it all works, "Has that photo been photoshopped"....

3:
Started digital...no real darkroom experience.

4: No idea...

5: I feel that getting REALLY CLOSE in camera is far more satisfying and if you are super fussy, you can really get IN CAMERA PHOTOS which have a stunning look and feel...

G.
 
I personally think image manipulation is just part of the photographic process. Photoshop has brought it to the masses, but I'd guess it was invented about 5 minutes after the invention of photography!

People have been adding and removing people from photos for years (think Hitler and Stalin, well not them personally but their propaganda people), photoshop just means that anyone with a computer can now do it.

As to whether people are losing trust in photos, to be honest I've never really had much 'trust' in photos, as I know how easy they are to manipulate. The amount I enjoy looking at a photo has nothing to do with how much like the original scene it is, but just on how nice it looks!
 
zoe_andrews said:
Hi to all you photographers out there

I would really love your help!! I need lots of views and opinions along with examples if you have any on the following questions?
Do you feel image manipulation has gone to far??
Are people losing trust in images compared to what they used to?
Have any of you gone from the dark room techniques to photoshop? what are you views and opinions on this??
Has the photographer industry become harder because of photoshop?
Any other opinions on image manipulation write them down please im interested to know????

Thanx guys x
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Do I feel its gone to far? No way, its not far enough. Photoshop has given us the power to do amazing things. Without it half of the pictures that are sold wouldn't have. Im not to sure on all the dark room techniques but theres no way you can compare that nowadays. Photoshop is hard to master as first but after the first few times you use it its the easiest editing you can do.
 
Do you feel image manipulation has gone to far??
Impossible to say. Depends entirely on the individual image and what it's being used for.

Are people losing trust in images compared to what they used to?
Agree with Gary, it's gone.

Have any of you gone from the dark room techniques to photoshop? what are you views and opinions on this??

Only done a bit of stuff in the darkroom. I find digital quicker and easier. But there are somethings you can't do on the computer. Also of course, darkroom stuff is real, actual physics and chemistry in action. Which is 'better' again depends on what you're doing. Go look up someone like Harry Nankin for example, no chance anyone could do what he does with film and paper if they used a digital camera or a computer.

Has the photographer industry become harder because of photoshop?

PS was in the industry a long time before I was, so it's hard for me to comment. Again though, I imagine a lot of things have got a lot easier because of digital photography. And yes, some people will find it harder to adapt.
 
zoe_andrews said:
cheers for you views guys everything helps!! loving this forum talking to others that are interested what you also are!!! sorry james im new you can tell lol i didnt mean to ... can i delete one?? if so how???
Click to expand...

Don't worry about deleting one, if you click the little exclamation mark underneath your name, and 'report' the thread, just write in the box that you started 2 threads and could they be merged. Some lovely moderator will then put the 2 threads into 1!

And welcome :wave:

Chris
 
merged and moved.
 
I used to be a pro photog many years ago and then did a stint on passenger liners - and if you've ever worked in a darkroom developing and printing colour films in a small, raging hot darkroom onboard a ship in the Caribbean - then you'd definitely say "Alleluiah" for the Digital age!

I now sit comfortably at home and process my digital images on a computer while looking at a 22" CRT monitor, not stifling in a small darkroom and having to use ice to get the developing chemicals down to a workable temperture.

I can then send them in a few seconds to anywhere in the world.

And photo manipulation goes back almost to the dawn of the photographic age - remember the (in)famous pictures of fairies taken back in 1917:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/doyle.htm

Photoshop is just the digital equivalent of some darkroom techniques - although improved many orders of magnitude.
 
For OP. Yes people are losing trust it seems, although I think its false state and in-fact photography is becoming more real and reliable.

IMO this is because the ability to manipulate has always been available in the passed to photographers that knew how, as Chris said their are plenty of examples going over all the decades.

This decade is the first time that the masses are also knowledgeable of the potential manipulations.
This will/has inevitably caused a cynical view of all photography (this thread) and so the future reigns of photographers will/could back up their finished images (if asked ) with proof. Plenty of people here prepared to do that for example.

I think at this time, a Raw file is possibly the perfect evidence of an untouched image, and I’d suggest possibly supersedes the film negative as a non corruptible original, surely this makes photography more reliable?

I have no idea how to manipulate a negative however, my film days of processing and prints didn’t go anyway near that level of manipulation, but I’ve little doubt that more than one image could be transformed into one negative if needs be and one knew how.
 
The camera never lies? Actually the camera has pretty much always lied, its just that we have a name for it now, its called "photoshop"
 
The camera never lies? Actually the camera has pretty much always lied, its just that we have a name for it now, its called "photoshop"
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I agree, except it's now much, much easier to make it lie. Previously a certain amount of skill was required, now anyone can do it, which is why the trust has gone from images.
 
zoe_andrews said:
Do you feel image manipulation has gone to far??
No, it's called digital art.


[*]Are people losing trust in images compared to what they used to?
No I just think people in general know that it can be done, most people have heard of photoshop but I do wish they had a lot LESS trust when it comes to plasticised photoshopped skinny models.


[*]Have any of you gone from the dark room techniques to photoshop? what are you views and opinions on this??
It's a lot easier, a lot less smelly and the bin does not end up full of messed up prints.


[*]Has the photographer industry become harder because of photoshop?
Depends on your point of view. It's more accessable because everyone thinks they can do it so there is a lot more competition but the quality is sometimes missing. To do it well still takes the same understanding and eye for an image that it always has. If you have not got it, you can't make it in PP.


[*]Any other opinions on image manipulation write them down please im interested to know????
I'd love women to have more of an understanding of just how much manipulation goes into the cheap tacky magazines pushed at you at supermarket checkouts. "She's too fat, she's too thin" etc. They carve pounds off for one article and then put out some unflattering "muffin top, cellulite" image the next when they want to bring them down.
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It depends what you think is "too far" and for what reason.
If i've took a photograph that slightly under or over exposed then i have no problems using software which enables me to make the picture better. I don't take photos becuase i think i'm the worlds best photographer, i take them to have memories of times / events / places. If the picture looks better with a little manipulation then all the better.

However, if i was in a photogrpahy competition where skill with the camera is being jusged i would expect all of the images to be directly as they came out of the camera and not doctored in any way :)
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
I think at this time, a Raw file is possibly the perfect evidence of an untouched image, and I’d suggest possibly supersedes the film negative as a non corruptible original, surely this makes photography more reliable?
Click to expand...

I disagree with this comment, I wouldn't be surprised for the ability to amend a RAW image in some way, shape or form and be able to re-save it, after all, it's a digital file!

Doesn't SOCO and/or forensic units still use 35mm film because of this. I am under the impression that digital images wouldn't hold up as evidence in court as strong as a film taken photograph.

I could (or am) wrong in my thoughts!

Also, you're working on the presumption that we all take photos in raw, what about P&S cameras that don't support raw at all and those that don't shoot Raw?

I agree with all of the other comments! Yes, I do have a hang up on the Raw/JPG debate but that will be another thread (or 10000000000) :lol:
Carl.
 
Do you feel image manipulation has gone to far?
Click to expand...
No, it's just an extension of photography

Are people losing trust in images compared to what they used to?
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I regularly hear the phrase "oh, that's been Photoshopped", so I think yes.

Have any of you gone from the dark room techniques to photoshop?
Click to expand...
Yes I was trained as a darkroom technician and then went on to be a master printer. And then realised I hated spending all day in the dark and wondering what all the chemicals were doing to me or the environment.

what are you views and opinions on this? Has the photographer industry become harder because of photoshop?
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"Swings and roundabouts" I suppose, because you can get away with loads of errors that previously were not recoverable with darkroom techniques. But conversely that has increased the competition. One of the biggest changes has been in flash (strobie) stuff, which now is very easy with instant image checking in camera. Though it had been going on for years previously, you needed a high level of knowledge and a fair amount of luck to get it right.

Any other opinions on image manipulation
Click to expand...

Photography is an art form which means it's all subjective, there are no rights or wrongs.
 
CarlOgden said:
I disagree with this comment, I wouldn't be surprised for the ability to amend a RAW image in some way, shape or form and be able to re-save it, after all, it's a digital file!

Doesn't SOCO and/or forensic units still use 35mm film because of this. I am under the impression that digital images wouldn't hold up as evidence in court as strong as a film taken photograph.

I could (or am) wrong in my thoughts!

Also, you're working on the presumption that we all take photos in raw, what about P&S cameras that don't support raw at all and those that don't shoot Raw?

I agree with all of the other comments! Yes, I do have a hang up on the Raw/JPG debate but that will be another thread (or 10000000000) :lol:
Carl.
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You might be right about the raw against film In that respect I guess. .. I think I can see a time when it will swap over, yes I could be wrong... be interesting to see more thoughts on this.

I was intended to write it in a general and future sense, but yes okay, I was generalising to much.

:)
 
Yep Oggy, The old Bill are digital. Have been since 2003. I left Scenes of Crime 2 years earlier as I wanted to get digital. Have not used film for 9 years now.

A barrister worth his wait in Gold would be able to throw out all photographic evidence as none is a true representation, and it could be doctored and changed in the Darkroom.

Also Photoshop has been around since early 90's where you deved and scanned.....
 
zoe_andrews said:
Hi to all you photographers out there

I would really love your help!! I need lots of views and opinions along with examples if you have any on the following questions?
Do you feel image manipulation has gone to far??
[*]Are people losing trust in images compared to what they used to?
[*]Have any of you gone from the dark room techniques to photoshop? what are you views and opinions on this??
[*]Has the photographer industry become harder because of photoshop?
[*]Any other opinions on image manipulation write them down please im interested to know????


Thanx guys x
Click to expand...

I think there is a loss of trust in a photograph because of people's increase in awareness of what manipulation is possible. However, I don't think this is a bad thing, manipulation has always been done just people weren't aware of what was possible and historically this has meant that people blindly accepted the photographic image as true when perhaps they shouldn't. There are plenty of examples where people were removed or added from images in the past for political reasons or where real airbrushing was used to enhance the image for whatever reason.

Having some experience in B&W dark room I would say that the only things Photoshop has done is make it easier and more publically accessible to make changes, even things like stitching images could be done in the darkroom. However, with film manipulation take so much time and effort and therefore most people who had a darkroom couldn't be bothered and those that didn't either weren't aware of the possibilites or saw the cost and ignored it. Now, every computer has the ability to adjust whatever takes the operators fancy.

From my point of view modern manipulation is both a blessing and a curse. Blessing in the sense that I now have much more control of my images than I ever had in the past. Back in the film days the only invovement I had with the image was behind the camera, the image that I saw was in the hands of a lab tech who used to take film, develop the negative and produce the best prints they could from each image according to what they thought was best. Now I take the photo, adjust the image to how I want to see it and I can even be responsible for the production of the final image that goes on my wall. It's also a curse because as the awareness of what is possible with an image clients expect more, doing events where the imperitive is get the shot and print it striaght from the camera, you get comments like can you remove my spot to photoshop me down a dress size. A pro tog within the industry now needs to be skilled in something they didn't have to before but does that mean it's harder? Personally I think not, to support statement I ask you to look at the entrance level for the industry now, ask how many pros shooting weddings today would be confident shooting a wedding on film. I'll be honest if it wasn't for digital I would never have started weddings and even now I wouldn't fancy the thought of shooting on film. I think that this is entirely attributable to the ease of quality photo manipulation.

So to answer your question - I don't think manipulation has gone too far, I simply think it's got easier and more accessible so as a result more people do it to achieve the image they see in their heads.

Now when you get your 1st, A* or bonus from work for a top piece of critical discussion please think of me (and share the bonus ;) ).

Seriously why have you asked this question, seems an odd question for a new TPer to ask. :thinking:
 
SimonTALM said:
Now when you get your 1st, A* or bonus from work for a top piece of critical discussion please think of me (and share the bonus ;) ).

Seriously why have you asked this question, seems an odd question for a new TPer to ask. :thinking:
Click to expand...

Being a cynical old fart, that's the first question I asked.

Why would anyone ask that in virtually their first post. The questions do seem like something from an exam paper or survey, as opposed to off the top of yer'ead queeries, or general musings.
 
it an assignment i've choosen to look into and have heard about these forums.So i thought i would ask these questions as it was something i am interested in and passionate about and want to find out you views. i've been looking around for ages and want views from professional photographers and here i have. I really enjoyed reading the different areas within photography all of you are looking at, and other discussion occurring! Some good quotes mentioned to along with links. I wish i did this before and i'm defiantly staying to get more involved . I dont do exams so this is defiantly not an exam question maybe i should write one though??? i will thank you all for your help *** i get the first!! :D

Im really thankful for all you views they are amazing helpful
please please keep them coming :D
 
zoe_andrews said:
Thanx guys x
Click to expand...

Oh, is that an assumption that retouching is a male domain?

3 of the biggest earners in the retouching industry are women ;)

Anyhow, in response to the questions...


[*]Do you feel image manipulation has gone to far??
No. But bad manipulation has.
However, manipulation has no place in photojournalism in my opinion.

[*]Are people losing trust in images compared to what they used to?
No, they're just more aware that it goes on. It's not new, just more people know how it's achieved now.

[*]Have any of you gone from the dark room techniques to photoshop? what are you views and opinions on this??
Yes, but with a big layoff in between. Digital is quicker, cleaner, and healthier! It's more accessible too, anyone can buy a computer and the software to be able to do the same as any Pro retoucher, whereas in the darkroom days the equipment and resources required to achieve these results cost a fortune.

[*]Has the photographer industry become harder because of photoshop?

No, because it's always been around. But for those that eschew manipulation and retouching it is harder, because customers expect a finished, polished image.

[*]Any other opinions on image manipulation write them down please im interested to know.

One of the first things I get asked about is "can you photoshop me?" People want to look like magazine covers, movie posters and the images they see in the press everyday. Everyone knows that celebs don't look like these magazine covers, courtesy of magazines such as Closer, and Heat, but doesn't stop people wanting to look like them.

I do think bad retouching / manipulation should be derided though, waxy skin, mishapen bone structure, unnaturally elongated limbs, or even limbs being bent in the wrong direction all bad workmanship.
 
zoe_andrews said:
Hi to all you photographers out there

I would really love your help!! I need lots of views and opinions along with examples if you have any on the following questions?
Do you feel image manipulation has gone to far??
[*]Are people losing trust in images compared to what they used to?yes
[*]Have any of you gone from the dark room techniques to photoshop? what are you views and opinions on this??yes..part of the fun
[*]Has the photographer industry become harder because of photoshop?
[*]Any other opinions on image manipulation write them down please im interested to know????horses for corses..do you want your baby to be in an ad...does your client want your ad shot to be like his family snaps


Thanx guys x
Click to expand...
 
hey guys i have some lovely feedback some great stuff.....

i would love some more... just a wee line anything you feel on image manipulation ... express it in one or two words if you dont have time... coz maybe your too busy editing image urself :D
 
I would much rather get a photo right to start with, rather than shopping it. But I do enjoy the process of manipulating it to turn out how I originally wanted it. Or playing with photos for fun, just to make it look different. It's no replacement for getting a good photo to start with though.
 
And, as others have said, photo manipulation has been present from the start, ish. I haven't used film for years, but I still used manipulation during the developing process to make it right. It hasn't gone too far, as such, but it has become much more accessible.
 
You can always trust a photographer.............. Honestly
 
Marac said:
You can always trust a photographer.............. Honestly
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LOVE THIS IT MADE ME LAUGH....but why can you??

someone has quoted this to me
'From the moment man first picked up a stick and drew something in the sand he has manipulated (art-iculated) his own expressed view as a graphical representation of reality and how he see's it.'

would you agree??
 
'From the moment man first picked up a stick and drew something in the sand he has manipulated (art-iculated) his own expressed view as a graphical representation of reality and how he see's it.'

would you agree??
Click to expand...

Absolutely true :thumbs:
 
zoe_andrews said:
i would love some more... just a wee line anything you feel on image manipulation ... express it in one or two words if you dont have time...
Click to expand...

Cauliflower Elephant
 
zoe_andrews said:
hey guys i have some lovely feedback some great stuff.....

i would love some more... just a wee line anything you feel on image manipulation ... express it in one or two words if you dont have time... coz maybe your too busy editing image urself :D
Click to expand...

:cool:

consolidate and improve
 
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