Great news, thats one less a******e

Ricardodaforce said:
So let's whoop cheer and celebrate a person's death! And that makes you superior to him how?
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I believe that anyone who sets out to deliberately kill a person or an animal simply for pleasure, is the lowest of the low. As I have never harboured those thoughts, then yes, I do feel that I have a higher sense of morality than him.
Of course, that is my personal view, and I accept that some people will not agree.
 
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Byker28i said:
What's really interesting, from a psychology view, is the mob mentality of internet outrage, the ramping up of feelings. Is this part of social media now, the lack of thought, to escalate the outrage in a increasing effort to outdo how affected you are? There's probably a good paper in this somewhere
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Exactly how I see it. People here taking genuine pleasure from knowing someone has been killed. Seems like a very strange phenomena. Happens regularly here too.
 
andy700 said:
I believe that anyone who sets out to deliberately kill a person or an animal simply for pleasure, is the lowest of the low. As I have never harboured those thoughts, then yes, I do feel that I have a higher sense of morality than him.
Of course, that is my personal view, and I accept that some people will not agree.
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Yet it's ok for someone to kill an animal to eat their meat or use their skin is fine in this society. Oh what wonderful double-standards. I bet you have leather shoes and belts, even if you don't enjoy a nice sirloin.
 
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andy700 said:
How and why did he get killed?
He was there looking for "targets" for his wealthy clients to shoot.
He saw a "target" - a defenceless (he thought) baby bull elephant, and went to try to measure its tusks.
The animal responded to the "hunter" moving towards it and charged.
The only sad thing about this, is that the young elephant was shot by a .458 calibre weapon, and will have been badly injured.
This had absolutely nothing to do with conservation, and everything to do with rich, selfish people thinking that money gives them the right to do anything.
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The tusk measurement is important so they know the age of the animal. As it happens the tusk size is also important to the client as a trophy.
I've explained the conservation side of it, if you don't want to listen that's up to you.
The guide shot from 10 yards. You know for certain the round hit the elephant? No report I can find says that the round hit or that the animal died, but that doesn't fit your justification for the escalation of moral outrage. Interesting.


If you want to blame anyone for the culling, blame the over population of the human race. The animals are restricted in their environment as we encroach and expand, consuming resources.

Ricardodaforce said:
Exactly how I see it. People here taking genuine pleasure from knowing someone has been killed. Seems like a very strange phenomena. Happens regularly here too.
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I've no problem with the discussion, I've no issue with the feelings of disgust, shame. It's a side effect of conservation and the large sums paid for 'trophy' animals means the conservation work goes on.

I really felt uncomfortable when viewing the Hunter in his lodge - I think fro the Wildlife photographer of the year? May have been Prix Pricet.


Edit - Found it - Trophy room by David Chancellor in the 2012 competition
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/wpy/gallery/2012/images/world-in-our-hands/4614/trophy-room.html

Anyhow I've said enough and will leave the thread to escalate with outrage towards locking.
 
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Would you rather have the animals starving to death in an overpopulated area or the numbers controlled so there will be enough food and room for them?

If there is to be a cull and the local conservation can be boosted by people wanting to pay to cull the animals where is the problem?

It's not like the bloke got up one morning bought a gun and went off to shoot an elephant, despite what social media would want you to believe.
 
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I have celebrated the deaths and lives of quite a few people.
 
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I too have nothing but disgust for the kind of people who hunt.

I agree that they couldn't care less about conservation. It's all about 'trophies' for them, & their apparent feeling of 'heroics' as they bravely shoot from some proteted location :mad:

However, I think that the conservationists have taken an opportunity to exploit the hunters, & get large amounts of cash to help with their work. The kind of money they would struggle to raise by regular fund raising.

Personally, I would not like to have anything to do with trophy hunters, & part of me hates the idea that they are getting their kicks & driving their sick obsession, but I can appreciate the business model that raises much needed cash for culling which needs to be done anyway.
 
Comfortably Numb said:
I too have nothing but disgust for the kind of people who hunt.

I agree that they couldn't care less about conservation. It's all about 'trophies' for them, & their apparent feeling of 'heroics' as they bravely shoot from some proteted location :mad:

However, I think that the conservationists have taken an opportunity to exploit the hunters, & get large amounts of cash to help with their work. The kind of money they would struggle to raise by regular fund raising.

Personally, I would not like to have anything to do with trophy hunters, & part of me hates the idea that they are getting their kicks & driving their sick obsession, but I can appreciate the business model that raises much needed cash for culling which needs to be done anyway.
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A very well thought out reply. I agree with pretty much all of what you say.

As much as I dislike big game "hunters", the money they put into the hands of the conservationists is put to good use.
 
Comfortably Numb said:
I too have nothing but disgust for the kind of people who hunt.

I agree that they couldn't care less about conservation. It's all about 'trophies' for them, & their apparent feeling of 'heroics' as they bravely shoot from some proteted location :mad:

However, I think that the conservationists have taken an opportunity to exploit the hunters, & get large amounts of cash to help with their work. The kind of money they would struggle to raise by regular fund raising.

Personally, I would not like to have anything to do with trophy hunters, & part of me hates the idea that they are getting their kicks & driving their sick obsession, but I can appreciate the business model that raises much needed cash for culling which needs to be done anyway.
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That sums up my views of the case as well.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Exactly how I see it. People here taking genuine pleasure from knowing someone has been killed. Seems like a very strange phenomena. Happens regularly here too.
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Ricardodaforce said:
Yet it's ok for someone to kill an animal to eat their meat or use their skin is fine in this society. Oh what wonderful double-standards. I bet you have leather shoes and belts, even if you don't enjoy a nice sirloin.
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I bet you get rather dizzy up there on your moral high ground. :confused:
 
AHILL said:
I bet you get rather dizzy up there on your moral high ground. :confused:
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I just don't understand how people can get pleasure from knowing someone as been killed. We're not talking about genocidal despots or pedophile baby murderers are we? Have a look at some of the comments I quoted. A man is killed, and guys here are feeling genuine pleasure. Does that not seem a tad strange to you?
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I just don't understand how people can get pleasure from knowing someone as been killed. We're not talking about genocidal despots or pedophile baby murderers are we? Have a look at some of the comments I quoted. A man is killed, and guys here are feeling genuine pleasure. Does that not seem a tad strange to you?
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Some people think animals matter more than people. I know a lot of people that care more about what happens to animals than to people. It says all you need to know about them, that they can relate to animals more easily than people.
 
ST4 said:
Some people think animals matter more than people. I know a lot of people that care more about what happens to animals than to people. It says all you need to know about them, that they can relate to animals more easily than people.
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A very simplistic way of looking at it and it's all some people need to know about you.
 
ST4 said:
Some people think animals matter more than people. I know a lot of people that care more about what happens to animals than to people. It says all you need to know about them, that they can relate to animals more easily than people.
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No, there are people who care about animals more than certain people. big difference.
 
ST4 said:
Some people think animals matter more than people. I know a lot of people that care more about what happens to animals than to people. It says all you need to know about them, that they can relate to animals more easily than people.
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I care more about my dogs than I do about rapists, murderers and paedophiles.
What does that say about me I wonder?
 
I don't know the background to this but genuinely don't understand why someone would want to shoot something like an elephant
It's not as simple as saying that because I think that shooting something for pleasure is wrong that I'm saying that animals are more important than people
It's not the same as eating meat as the cow was killed to eat hopefully humanely
 
LCPete said:
I don't know the background to this but genuinely don't understand why someone would want to shoot something like an elephant
It's not as simple as saying that because I think that shooting something for pleasure is wrong that I'm saying that animals are more important than people
It's not the same as eating meat as the cow was killed to eat hopefully humanely
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Exactly this.
 
As has been noted because of the way we, the human race, have expanded and reduced wild areas so markedly that the (only?) way we can ensure stable, sustainable wild animal populations is by culling. Culling unfortunately is a necessary conservation tool simply because of the geographic restrictions we place on the wild denizens that share this planet with us.

So we get to the thinking and methodology of and if possible monetising the culling?

In the case of say Red Deer at least the venison can be sold plus they are shot I understand by skilled licensed ghillies. Though I do recall a progam once where mention was made of 'sport shooting'.

However with the likes of wild game such as Elephants and big cats the end result whether controlled shooting by the rangers or by 'sport shooters' is something that has extended market value I.e. not just meat for the plate. The initial value to the game reserve is selling the "hunt" and the trophy but the "sportsman" ends up with something that can be sold on if he so desires, in the case of ivory does that not perpetuate the ivory trade? What does the Cites agreement say about such ivory???

What it boils down to me is whether it is right to monetise the culling in the case of wild animal hunts. Personally i do not think that should be case, meat on the plate is another matter.

And as for canned hunts...... :( that is beyond the pale and in real terms how much differences there between a canned hunt and the ones this person was running?

Edit:- as photographers we are shooting with cameras and leaving only footprints and wildlife tourism also brings money...........so why do the game parks and reserves (that allow it) feel the need to expose the animals to possibly unskilled shooters doing the culling and the risk of exacerbating the value of the creatures by further/increased poaching.
 
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boyfalldown said:
CITES allows for permits for legally obtained sporting trophies
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Ah! I wonder how they regulate it and how do they mitigate for the flouting of the system, because where there are rules there are rule benders and breakers?
 
Box Brownie said:
Ah! I wonder how they regulate it and how do they mitigate for the flouting of the system, because where there are rules there are rule benders and breakers?
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True, I guess most trophies go legally to the U.S. Though, and most poaching goes to China, so probably two very different routes
 
Box Brownie said:
Ah! I wonder how they regulate it and how do they mitigate for the flouting of the system, because where there are rules there are rule benders and breakers?
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Most elephants are killed illegally with ak47's
 
Byker28i said:
It so happened this person was a conservationist and prolific wildlife photographer.

I'd suggest you know very little about conservation. When species are protected, they will over populate (rather like humans) and culling is a necessary part of any conservation to keep the area in balance. The alternative is the destruction of the habitat and the loss through starvation of many animals.

So in the UK, we cull deer, pigeons in towns, rabbits, badgers to name but a few species. How many cows did we kill during the BSE crisis?
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/PDF/fcpn6.pdf/$FILE/fcpn6.pdf
http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...lands-and-wildife-say-scientists-8523088.html

In Australia they cull sharks and the cormorant

Didnt we eradicate predators from some islands to protect the birdlife?
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I would suggest that you don't know anything about me, or what I know about anything. Obviously you have some knowledge of it and seem to have a thing about airing that knowledge.

Here's an internet 30 pence. Phone someone who gives a toss about people like that.
 
I don't as I said I don't know about the background to this case but do know a bit about the national parks in Zambia they absolutely do not allow the trophy shooting of animal's in any part of the country and rely on tourist income to fund their conservation work which as far as I can tell is very successful
And they certainly don't cull elephants or other animals
You can't compare the situation here with what happens in Africa it's completely different
 
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Byker28i said:
Most elephants are killed illegally with ak47's
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Really? The "standard" big game cartridge is the .458 Lott, with an energy rating of up to 6,000 ft lbs, and they can penetrate an elephant's hide.

AK47 standard issue is a 39mm cartridge case with a 7.62mm projectile, designed to kill humans at close/medium range, with up to 1,600 ft lbs of energy - very, very different.

I've never shot an elephant and never will, but my suspicion is that shooting an elephant with an AK47 would just annoy it. Even the guy in this story got himself killed after firing a rifle that's actually designed for the job
 
Garry Edwards said:
Really? The "standard" big game cartridge is the .458 Lott, with an energy rating of up to 6,000 ft lbs, and they can penetrate an elephant's hide.

AK47 standard issue is a 39mm cartridge case with a 7.62mm projectile, designed to kill humans at close/medium range, with up to 1,600 ft lbs of energy - very, very different.

I've never shot an elephant and never will, but my suspicion is that shooting an elephant with an AK47 would just annoy it. Even the guy in this story got himself killed after firing a rifle that's actually designed for the job
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Possibly the difference of a "hunter" with a high velocity large calibre round to the head vs a dozen poachers each armed with AK's all firing together..............that will equal majoring wounding and one downed elephant too weak to fight back. I have a vague memory of a BBC programme about the way poachers are thought to work and one commentary spoke of such non fatal attack with the gang returning the next day for the ivory :(
 
Garry Edwards said:
Really? The "standard" big game cartridge is the .458 Lott, with an energy rating of up to 6,000 ft lbs, and they can penetrate an elephant's hide.

AK47 standard issue is a 39mm cartridge case with a 7.62mm projectile, designed to kill humans at close/medium range, with up to 1,600 ft lbs of energy - very, very different.

I've never shot an elephant and never will, but my suspicion is that shooting an elephant with an AK47 would just annoy it. Even the guy in this story got himself killed after firing a rifle that's actually designed for the job
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Poachers favourite weapon due to it's availability/ You don't need a high calibre round if you've a few people putting several rounds into it.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/08/140818-elephants-africa-poaching-cites-census/

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-to-know-about-elephant-poaching-8983276.html

The guy that died shot off a round as a last resort from 10 yards after shouting to scare the animal off didn't work. No report says it was at the animal or that it hit it.
 
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Byker28i said:
Poachers favourite weapon due to it's availability/ You don't need a high calibre round if you've a few people putting several rounds into it.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/08/140818-elephants-africa-poaching-cites-census/

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-to-know-about-elephant-poaching-8983276.html

The guy that died shot off a round as a last resort from 10 yards after shouting to scare the animal off didn't work. No report says it was at the animal or that it hit it.
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Fair enough, pretty despicable behaviour.
Not that everyone in this country is any better though, a lot of deer have been found, wounded by .22 rimfire or even airguns, and there are a lot of people who think it's OK to shoot fox with airguns :(
 
AK47 is about $100-200. An ivory tusk sells for around $240-250. Even with a group it's easy to make money in the illegal trade. It's why they are trying to reduce the trade but a lot still goes to China. It's around $2000 a kg there, so there's a lot of money made in the chain.
 
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