Filming in public places

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justice4peoplewithnovoice

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Hi everyone.
I'm here today for your expertise and knowledge.

Please can anyone tell of a law that protects vulnerable patients being covertly filmed in hospital and then sharing it on a WhatsApp group without permission. TIA
 
Hi and welcome to TP

Firstly, speaking a TP member, please don't post duplicate posts as you have done.

Now FWIW and purely as far as I know.....i.e. just my thoughts....if you need legal advice with 'weight' & meaning an open forum is not the place!

A hospital, even though people think of it as a 'public place' it is not....the grounds & building are private.

Filming(?) of any sort in principle needs permission and as for covert filming just who is doing that and for what purpose. If you see it IMO you should alert the ward staff etc to what is happening.

As for protection, I would have thought that the Data Protection Act (2018) is the key one.

Lastly, if in doubt and you don't get satisfaction from the senior staff members.....maybe a discussion with your local Constabulary? But I surmise that you will need proof/evidence in whatever action to take?

@DemiLion have you any specific insights to expand as appropriate?
 
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Since all the other threads have been locked I've un-locked this one, but will be keeping an eye on it. There would be an irony to silence someone with your user name, but that's not something we would want to do without justification. However please use talkphotography with respect for other users.

@justice4peoplewithnovoice You've posted the same information in multiple threads, which although not strictly against the rules, is not part of normal forum netiquette.
 
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Off the top of my head :

Data Protection Act 2018

Human Rights Act 1998

Mental Capacity Act 2005

Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
 
Fixer said:
Off the top of my head :
Data Protection Act 2018
Human Rights Act 1998
Mental Capacity Act 2005
Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
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I can't see anything in those acts that relates to the specific case described. Perhaps you could point out the provisions that you think apply?

I would have thought that it would boil down to a civil case for invasion of privacy or something of that nature.
 
I'm told by a care home manager it's classed as abuse by care standards and the NHS. But as we dont know what country this is it's hard to be sure, and theres little detail.
 
On the other hand, covert filming, which breaks all sorts of privacy expectations is applauded if that footage then demonstrates malpractice. A regular occurrance in the news by either an internal whistleblower or someone external. Without specific details its hard to comment.
 
Call yourself ‘Panorama’.
 
andrewc said:
On the other hand, covert filming, which breaks all sorts of privacy expectations is applauded if that footage then demonstrates malpractice. A regular occurrance in the news by either an internal whistleblower or someone external. Without specific details its hard to comment.
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potential high risk then if caught covertly filming with no apparent wrong doing (not that media's fist concern is truth over getting a story out there or initiating a story)
 
If there's not a law protecting them, there should be one IMO . . .
 
An Englishman's home is his castle. In my opinion, this is a very simple case: filming or taking pictures in a hospital can't be done if it's not authorised by the hospital management.

Laws like the Human Rights Act are not relevant. For instance, your freedom of expression makes no sense in my home. If I don't like what you say, I can ask you to leave without giving you any justification.
 
I would suspect there is a law protecting them in a place like a hospital. My understanding is you can take picture's of people out walking around but on private property you need permission. I would assume a person in a hospital would be considered on private property. They or their insurance is picking up the bill! Personnally I don't know why someone would complain though.
 
sirch said:
The OP was last seen Monday evening ...
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On the face of we are quite unlikely to learn anymore in regard to context :thinking:

Plus in reply to @Don Fischer the OP mentioned vulnerable patients, that is very specific description and "vulnerability" raises the bar quite markedly when it comes to the "duty of care".
 
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Don Fischer said:
on private property you need permission. I would assume a person in a hospital would be considered on private property.
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Voila. Within 2 seconds of googling "Photography policy NHS England"

I get many repeats of this (or paraphrased): "All film crews and photographers must be accompanied by a member of Trust staff at all times. No patients or staff are to be filmed without consent. Patients are required to fill in a Trust consent form before proceeding with any filming or photography."

Similar things returned for NHS Wales & Scotland / HSC NI
 
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The subject and the post don't match up ...... Just Saying :)
 
Citizen of Bath said:
Laws like the Human Rights Act are not relevant. For instance, your freedom of expression makes no sense in my home. If I don't like what you say, I can ask you to leave without giving you any justification.
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Wrong.
 
Citizen of Bath said:
I gave the example of the absence of the right of freedom of expression in my home. What are your counterexamples or counter-proposals? In my opinion, to say "wrong" lacks justification.
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Incorrect. You gave an example regarding the taking of pictures/video.

That is irrelevant.

The issue here is publication - which is a very different thing.
 
DemiLion said:
Incorrect. You gave an example regarding the taking of pictures/video.

That is irrelevant.

The issue here is publication - which is a very different thing.
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The OP talked of, I quote, "a law that protects vulnerable patients being covertly filmed in hospital". That's the taking of pictures/video, and it must be authorised by the hospital managers. I'm not sure I understand why you think that is wrong or irrelevant.

Then there is the problem of posting the videos on a WhatsApp group, which wouldn't be allowed since taking of the videos in question was not authorised by the hospital managers.
 
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Citizen of Bath said:
The OP talked of, I quote, "a law that protects vulnerable patients being covertly filmed in hospital". That's the taking of pictures/video, and it must be authorised by the hospital managers. I'm not sure I understand why you think that is irrelevant.

Then there is the problem of posting the videos on a WhatsApp group, which wouldn't be allowed since taking of the videos in question was not authorised by the hospital managers.
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I think we may be getting a little confused here.

Is there a statute in (I assume British) law, which makes taking a picture or making a recording of a person in a hospital or similar place, a prosecutable offence? I haven't been able to find one, so if anyone knows of such a statute, perhaps they could post a link?
Don Fischer said:
My understanding is you can take picture's of people out walking around but on private property you need permission.
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It's often stated that way but as I understand things, the law is that you can be told not to do so and ejected (with no more than reasonable force) if you fail to comply. If you are not challenged, the law is silent on the matter. The owner of the property or their agent cannot confiscate your camera or force you to delete the images. They can only take you to court, privately, to achieve such an intent. Any stronger action means that they have committed an assault or otherwise broken a criminal law.

There are some exceptions to the above, where criminal law comes into the picture. Taking pictures on Ministry of Defence land without permission is definitely a crime and they get very intense on the matter!
 
Citizen of Bath said:
The OP talked of, I quote, "a law that protects vulnerable patients being covertly filmed in hospital". That's the taking of pictures/video, and it must be authorised by the hospital managers. I'm not sure I understand why you think that is wrong or irrelevant.

Then there is the problem of posting the videos on a WhatsApp group, which wouldn't be allowed since taking of the videos in question was not authorised by the hospital managers.
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Nope. The principal and criminal issue is the publishing of the images.

There are very few circumstances where actually taking a photograph is illegal in the UK (OSA 1911, PoCA 1978 and the CJA 1925*).
All the rest is down to the 'right' to access a privately owned space and any breaches of that licence if at all, which would usually be dealt with under trespass laws.

However, there are multiple areas of law which make the publication of an image illegal.

This would be one of those (in most cases, with a following wind and if the tide is out).


Addy on bit: Oh, I almost forgot, also the V(O)A 2019.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I think we may be getting a little confused here.

Is there a statute in (I assume British) law, which makes taking a picture or making a recording of a person in a hospital or similar place, a prosecutable offence? I haven't been able to find one, so if anyone knows of such a statute, perhaps they could post a link?

It's often stated that way but as I understand things, the law is that you can be told not to do so and ejected (with no more than reasonable force) if you fail to comply. If you are not challenged, the law is silent on the matter. The owner of the property or their agent cannot confiscate your camera or force you to delete the images. They can only take you to court, privately, to achieve such an intent. Any stronger action means that they have committed an assault or otherwise broken a criminal law.

There are some exceptions to the above, where criminal law comes into the picture. Taking pictures on Ministry of Defence land without permission is definitely a crime and they get very intense on the matter!
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As far as I know, there is no such statute and even case-law is minimal. Sara Cox v The People is a little bit similar but it ended with a settlement, not a court decision. Quoting Bernadette Rainey, "Human Rights Law", Oxford University Press, 2013, p. 113: "Under English common law, traditionally there has been no right to privacy that can be argued before a court. The closest form of protection for private information is the tort of breach of confidence."
 
Citizen of Bath said:
"Under English common law, traditionally there has been no right to privacy that can be argued before a court. The closest form of protection for private information is the tort of breach of confidence."
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That is my understanding as well.

I suspect that there may also be cases where the publication of a picture, taken in a private place, might give rise to the tort of libel. Carter Ruck, who many people will know have an axe to grind in the matter, offer a discussion of that tort here...

England and Wales - Carter-Ruck

Detailed media law guide insights into defamation, privacy and data protection law in England and Wales written by Claire Gil and Mathilde Groppo of Carter-Ruck
www.carter-ruck.com www.carter-ruck.com
 
DemiLion said:
Nope. The principal and criminal issue is the publishing of the images.

There are very few circumstances where actually taking a photograph is illegal in the UK (OSA 1911, PoCA 1978 and the CJA 1925*).
All the rest is down to the 'right' to access a privately owned space and any breaches of that licence if at all, which would usually be dealt with under trespass laws.

However, there are multiple areas of law which make the publication of an image illegal.

This would be one of those (in most cases, with a following wind and if the tide is out).


Addy on bit: Oh, I almost forgot, also the V(O)A 2019.
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I still have my doubts: why do you say the issue is the publishing of the images? They were posted on a WhatsApp group, which means it's not a publication, but a post on a private space. It's not like X, Instagram or TalkPhotography. As far as I know, you can't read messages from a WhatsApp group if you aren't a member of that group, right?
 
Citizen of Bath said:
I still have my doubts: why do you say the issue is the publishing of the images? They were posted on a WhatsApp group, which means it's not a publication, but a post on a private space.
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My understanding is that "publishing" in English law means "making available to others",

If I recall correctly, it's been held that sending a private letter to another may constitute publishing, so posting to a site accessible by others may also fall into that class.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
My understanding is that "publishing" in English law means "making available to others",

If I recall correctly, it's been held that sending a private letter to another may constitute publishing, so posting to a site accessible by others may also fall into that class.
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I see your point, but human rights lawyers differentiate between the two things. For example, in the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006, the text states that "References in this Part to the publication or distribution of written material are to its publication or distribution to the public or a section of the public" (§ 29C) (my emphasis).
 
So much for this one NOT going down the legal expertise route.
 
I don't see anything about legal expertise in the above discussion.

Despite what lawyers might wish us to think, the laws of the land are for the benefit and protection of all citizens and we are all entitled to know and discuss them.
 
seems like a few one hit wonders signing up recently?
 
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