Beginner Film development inconsistency

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rvdz2002

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Roel
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Hello all - this is my first post on the forum, thanks for having me! Hopefully this is the righ place to post my question.

I'm a film photography beginner and I'm trying my hand at processing film at home. I processed a number of films over the past year or so and I have worked out most of the issues. However, in a test I did over the weekend I'm strugging to get consistent results and I don't understand why.

Here is the scenario:
- Chemicals are Ilford ID-11, Ilford Ilfostop and Ilford Rapid Fixer, all freshly mixed.
- Film is Ilford HP5+ 35mm
- Camera is a Minolta Dynax 800si
- All shots are metered with a Minolta IV light meter

I shot one roll of HP5+ on Saturday, developed it the same day for 13 minutes at 20 degrees in fresh ID-11 stock diluted to 1:1. I inverted continuously for the first 30 seconds, then four inversions every minute thereafter. Then stopped for 30 seconds and fixed for 5 minutes. Washed the film, left it to dry and examined the results. Nice and sharp, relatively low grain, good exposures - I was happy :)

Then I shot another roll of HP5+ the next day. Again, I developed it the same day for 13 minutes at 20 degrees in fresh ID-11 stock diluted to 1:1. I inverted continuously for the first 30 seconds, then four inversions every minute thereafter. Then stopped for 30 seconds and fixed for 5 minutes. Washed the film, left it to dry and examined the results - this film is noticably darker. I'm sure it will still produce acceptable prints but I don't understand where the difference comes from - I'm sure I did everything exactly the same. Now I'm confused :(

I don't believe it's an issue with the exposures, because the film leader and the edge markings of the second film are darker too. If there was a problem with the light meter or the camera, it would only be the frames that are darker. There are no signs of light leaks or any other issues.

I use the same thermometer to measure all temperatures and I use a sous vide to make sure all chemicals are warmed up to exactly 20 degrees. The processing is done at room temperature in the kitchen, so I don't believe the temperatures fluctuate whilst in the tank.

There are a few things that are different between the first and second film, but I can't imagine why they would cause a result that's this noticable.
- The first film had an expiry date of 01/2016, the second film had an expiry of 10/2017. Both films have been stored in the same place during my ownership, but I can't comment on how they were stored before I bought them. That's an unknown. EDIT: The expiry dates are 01/2026 and 10/2027 - apologies
- As soon as I shot the second film I took it out of the camera and put in the tank for processing straight away, the photos had been taken outside (it was around 5 degrees) and I load my film onto the reels in the garage - so the film itself was possibly cold(er) than the first film, which was at room temperature when I started processing. Although if that made any difference, it surely would have made the second film thinner than the first - where the results are the opposite.

I don't understand the inconsistency - can anyone shed any light?
Much appreciated - thanks in advance!
 
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rvdz2002 said:
Hello all - this is my first post on the forum, thanks for having me! Hopefully this is the righ place to post my question.

I'm a film photography beginner and I'm trying my hand at processing film at home. I processed a number of films over the past year or so and I have worked out most of the issues. However, in a test I did over the weekend I'm strugging to get consistent results and I don't understand why.

Here is the scenario:
- Chemicals are Ilford ID-11, Ilford Ilfostop and Ilford Rapid Fixer, all freshly mixed.
- Film is Ilford HP5+ 35mm
- Camera is a Minolta Dynax 800si
- All shots are metered with a Minolta IV light meter

I shot one roll of HP5+ on Saturday, developed it the same day for 13 minutes at 20 degrees in fresh ID-11 stock diluted to 1:1. I inverted continuously for the first 30 seconds, then four inversions every minute thereafter. Then stopped for 30 seconds and fixed for 5 minutes. Washed the film, left it to dry and examined the results. Nice and sharp, relatively low grain, good exposures - I was happy :)

Then I shot another roll of HP5+ the next day. Again, I developed it the same day for 13 minutes at 20 degrees in fresh ID-11 stock diluted to 1:1. I inverted continuously for the first 30 seconds, then four inversions every minute thereafter. Then stopped for 30 seconds and fixed for 5 minutes. Washed the film, left it to dry and examined the results - this film is noticably darker. I'm sure it will still produce acceptable prints but I don't understand where the difference comes from - I'm sure I did everything exactly the same. Now I'm confused :(

I don't believe it's an issue with the exposures, because the film leader and the edge markings of the second film are darker too. If there was a problem with the light meter or the camera, it would only be the frames that are darker. There are no signs of light leaks or any other issues.

I use the same thermometer to measure all temperatures and I use a sous vide to make sure all chemicals are warmed up to exactly 20 degrees. The processing is done at room temperature in the kitchen, so I don't believe the temperatures fluctuate whilst in the tank.

There are a few things that are different between the first and second film, but I can't imagine why they would cause a result that's this noticable.
- The first film had an expiry date of 01/2016, the second film had an expiry of 10/2017. Both films have been stored in the same place during my ownership, but I can't comment on how they were stored before I bought them. That's an unknown.
- As soon as I shot the second film I took it out of the camera and put in the tank for processing straight away, the photos had been taken outside (it was around 5 degrees) and I load my film onto the reels in the garage - so the film itself was possibly cold(er) than the first film, which was at room temperature when I started processing. Although if that made any difference, it surely would have made the second film thinner than the first - where the results are the opposite.

I don't understand the inconsistency - can anyone shed any light?
Much appreciated - thanks in advance!
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The most obvious thing would be the variables.

You are using 8/9 year expired film of unknown storage before your ownership. All other things being equal, you have to look at the variables.

Remove the variable. Use fresh film, shoot and develop and see how you get on.
 
Hi Roel, welcome to the forum, and congrats on developing your own film - we are in a tiny minority in the general population, although there are many others on this forum.

My personal bet would be the expiry date of the films and (more importantly) the treatment prior to your ownership.

However there are some other potential issues. You say "fresh ID-11 stock", so you did throw away the developer used the previous day? I don't know the details for ID-11 specifically, but for DD-X which is my preferred developer (and HP5+ loves it), you need to increase the development time for the second roll by 10% (and so on and so forth for subsequent rolls up to the maximum 10 rolls).

You say the all the shots were metered, but were they all of similar subjects? Depending on your metering method, different subjects could well present as different negative densities.

From what you write about the water bath and thermometer, I assume you had left it all for long enough that the temperatures had all stabilised.

I had one film that turned out rather thin, the only thing I could identify as an issue was that it went into the tank and was stored in our garage overnight when it was cold. I did nothing to bring that tank up to room temperature, so the developer would have been somewhat chilled on entering the tank. Just a thought.

My advice: if you can afford it, buy in-date film; maybe treat yourself to DD-X sometime. But above all stick with it!
 
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Hi both - thank you very much for your responses. The film expiry dates are typos - apologies! This should read 2026 and 2027 respectively. Both films were in date.

As far as the ID-11, I didn't reuse the developer. What I meant was that the stock solution was the same (it was mixed last week and this should keep for about 6 months according to Ilford), but I diluted it to a 1:1 working solution shortly before starting development and then discarded it after the single use.

The shots were not of similar subjects, although similar lighting conditions. However, what I find strange is that the film leader and edge markings are also more dense on the second film so I thought that would rule out metering errors.

I left all the chemicals in the sous vide for about 30-40 minutes, and I measured the temperature of the chemical solution itself (not the water bath they were in) to make sure they were at 20 degrees.

I have tried DD-X before and got good results from it, but I read that ID-11 gives a slightly smaller grain - hence the experiment :)
 
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Hi Roel and welcome

Absolutely sound advice above from above.

However, try posting in Talk Film & Conventional. It’s geared towards these questions.
 
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angelpaaul said:
Hi Roel and welcome

Absolutely sound advice above from above.

However, try posting in Talk Film & Conventional. It’s geared towards these questions.
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Thank you Paul. Can I move my thread there, or should I just re-post the question in that forum?
 
I've been thinking about this a bit more and I've kept the tips of the film leaders that I cut off when I put them on the reel. I will put those in developer this evening, both in the same solution at the same time to see if there is any difference in density once developed. If there is, then it's an issue with the film (potentially one film being stored differently before I bought it) and if it's not, then it must be an issue with my development method - although I'd be totally stumped as to what that could be! Either way - will keep you posted!
 
rvdz2002 said:
Thank you Paul. Can I move my thread there, or should I just re-post the question in that forum?
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already moved. If you forget in future, just hit "report" on the first post in the thread and in the popup box type "please move to correct forum area" and one of my colleagues or myself will happily sort for you.
 
So I have developed the leader tips of both films together in the same solution at the same time, so I know the process is identical. Strangely enough, they have come out the same. The density of the two tips is the same as that of the first film, so the second, more dense film, is the odd one out.

At least that rules out an issue with the film itself, and proves there must be a problem with my development method of the second film.

I have gone over my notes and tried to go through all the steps in my head a hundred times and I cannot think of what could cause the difference.

In the first attachment I'm holding up the two film leaders to my kitchen light. Note that film 2 on the right is slightly darker.

In the second attachment I'm holding the two leader tips up to the same light. Note that they are of the same density.

Finally, the two film leaders next to each other. Note the denser/darker edge markings on film 2, which is on the left in this picture.

Any further thoughts are greatly appreciated!
 

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No, I guess it's not a big issue. I just don't understand how I have done the same thing twice and got two different outcomes. I'm going to shoot some more film at the weekend and see how that turns out.
 
rvdz2002 said:
No, I guess it's not a big issue. I just don't understand how I have done the same thing twice and got two different outcomes. I'm going to shoot some more film at the weekend and see how that turns out.
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Yeah keep practicing, it takes a while to get the hang of it all. I use ID-11 and find it a nice all round developer.
Have fun and let us know how you get on.
 
Hi a couple of points to think about.

If as you say the borders are darker does this coincide with frames that are darker. How can the frames be darker when the light from the lens when taking a photograph does not touch the frame from the direction of the lens. Usually the only way the frames can be darker is if light has entered from the back, light entering this way would also affect the area of film that records what is coming through the lens.

I do not think it has anything to do with your developing, not do I think it has anything to do with way the film was stored. Always load film into the camera in low light and remove the film from the camera in low light and place back in the tub it came quickly.

You have made a good choice of film to start with, it has lots of latitude. ID-11 is a good developer, well chosen.

Have a think about how the frame has been exposed to light. For example was the camera back properly closed. Is the light seal strip at the hinge of the back missing or well worn?

All the best........
 
The obvious variables for me would be prior state of the film, temperature of the development, concentration, time and agitation. Differences in the leader and edge markings rule out exposure as a factor.

NB I don't quite understand:
rvdz2002 said:
So I have developed the leader tips of both films together in the same solution at the same time, so I know the process is identical. Strangely enough, they have come out the same. The density of the two tips is the same as that of the first film, so the second, more dense film, is the odd one out.
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You say they have come out the same. At first I read this as saying they are the same density, but I'm guessing you meant the result is the same, one darker. If so, the last 4 variables are ruled out as the cause.

IMHO for a film as fresh as these and as flexible as HP5, the prior storage state is unlikely to be an issue unless it's been seriously maltreated. But theoretically prior state is the only uncontrolled variable. So I'd plump for different batch.

It sounds like your methodology is way more controlled than mine (this is probably a Good Thing, unless it gets to the point of worrying you!). However, the beauty of black and white negative film is that many problems in development can be mostly made up for in printing... or, for most of us, scanning and PP. I don't think I would even have noticed the difference in density, and TBH I can only really see a minor difference in the edge markings.

Personally I'd say print from both films and do blind tests to see if there's any significant difference. And if not, keep a wary eye out, but stop worrying and carry on!
 
ChrisR said:
Personally I'd say print from both films and do blind tests to see if there's any significant difference. And if not, keep a wary eye out, but stop worrying and carry on!
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:agree:
 
I had time this evening to make a few prints from that second roll. They are slightly more contrasty but they actually come out quite well.

The attachments are phone camera pictures of the actual prints, apologies for the shadows etc.

Let me know what you think!
 

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I fear that the control of batches of film is not what it was these days. The manufacturing runs are tiny compared to the heyday of film. I suspect variations to day are far greater.
Most film are now made on what would have been considered test machines and never intended for production runs.

Best to buy a number of films from the same batch for consistency.
 
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