Fill flash question?

redmonkee

redmonkee

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Hi guys I know this will be a really basic question for some but my flash knowledge is minimal to say the least.

I shoot with a Canon 1D3 and I want to know how I use my YN560 to add a little fill on bright sunny days to reduce the shadows under the subject's eyes.

I usually shoot in AV mode.

Sorry if this is basic but any help is greatly appreciated :thumbs:
 
If you want to override sync speed when in AV mode use HSS if your flash has this facility. Assuming you are in TTL mode.........the flash/camera will do the flash setting for ya.
 
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redmonkee said:
Hi guys I know this will be a really basic question for some but my flash knowledge is minimal to say the least.

I shoot with a Canon 1D3 and I want to know how I use my YN560 to add a little fill on bright sunny days to reduce the shadows under the subject's eyes.

I usually shoot in AV mode.

Sorry if this is basic but any help is greatly appreciated :thumbs:
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Well shooting in AV mode the camera should expose for the ambient light, and provided the flash is in ETTL mode it should automatically give a pretty good fill flash result. I find reducing the flash power just a little gives a more pleasing result usually, but it's easy to check the result on the screen and adjust accordingly. That's using a Canon flash gun, but assuming your gun has reasonable Canon compatibilty it should perform pretty much the same.

The easiest way to get fill flash in good light out of doors is to just set the camera to programme mode and the flash to ettl. Many wedding photographers work that way for out of doors fill flash shots.
 
NigelPaul said:
If you want to override sync speed when in AV mode use HSS if your flash has this facility.
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Not really sure what you mean mate. Like I say my knowledge is minimal :D

I think it has high speed sync, but how do i know how much power to dial in on the flash. Its full manual so no ETTL
 
YN560 is a dumb device great for manual flash but cant do TTL or HSS.
Philip your option is either get a light meter or get a ETTL flash in Canon Ex series
 
Sorry, if manual. practice on someone in the sunny conditions you are in starting with the flash set on low power and increase if ness. Distances will effect this though ......i.e some one elses picture is taken further away from the camera than the first person you will need to increase power.
 
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I agree - you really need an ETTL flashgun which will make life a lot easier.

To use a full manual flashgun for fill flash you need to divide the shooting distance into the guide number to give you the aperture, OR divide the aperture into the guide number to give the shooting distance. The settings you choose also need to be compatible with an ambient light reading. It's a bit of a nightmare tbh, particularly working under pressure and continually doing the mental arithmatic, which is the reason that prior to the advent of ETTL flashguns very few wedding photographers were using 35mm format because of the flash restrictions imposed by the focal plane shutter - most of them were using Rolleis and Hasselblads which sync at all shutter speeds and make fill flash a lot easier.

The simplest answer to your current problem is to set your metering for ambient light as long as the shutter speed doesn't exceed the max flash sync speed, then adjust the flash power right down until you're getting an acceptable fill flash result, but if I were you I'd put an ETTL flashgun high on your list of bits of kit to get.
 
YN 560 is a dead basic manual-only gun. It has no E-TTL, or high speed sync. It's really intended for use in a remote strobist set up, for which it seems to be very good.

But for fast working, shooting fill-in on-camera, you'll be forever adjusting the power whenever the subject distance changes, and falling out of love pretty quickly. Can be done though, as CT says - put the camera on Av and it will expose for the ambient, then adjust the flash output to suit.

E-TTL is brilliant for this. On Av, and then tweak the +/- compensation controls on the camera and the gun independently to control the balance, if necessary. Automatically adjusts for distance, bouncing, diffuser accessories etc.

Get a decent gun - 430 or 580EXii, Nissin (cheaper one doesn't do HSS), Metz 50 AF-1. I also like the little Canon 270EX which is a great little gun for basic stuff, and cheap.

High Speed Sync facility highly recommended - allows you to run above max x-sync speed in bright sun.

Edit: the Yongnuo is a great parter to another gun like this, in a multiple remote set up.
 
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Thanks for the replies guys.

I have used the YN560 for OCF work and it works really well. But like you say in rapidly changing lighting conditions I really would benefit with an ETTL flash gun.

If I got the 580EXII how easy is it to use with ETTL also what are the benefits of having the High Speed Sync. Would this mean i'd be able to get shots where I could overpower the ambient light to get a darker background and correctly exposed subject?
 
redmonkee said:
If I got the 580EXII how easy is it to use with ETTL also what are the benefits of having the High Speed Sync. Would this mean i'd be able to get shots where I could overpower the ambient light to get a darker background and correctly exposed subject?
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The 580EX2 would make fill flash as simple as it can possibly get.

Yes - you could use HSS to render a dark background and properly exposed subject. HSS is really useful. It's not true sync - the flash emits a continuous stream of short flash pulses but it obviously imposes a big demand on the flashgun, so works best at fairly large apertures and reasonably close shooting distances.
 
CT said:
The 580EX2 would make fill flash as simple as it can possibly get.

Yes - you could use HSS to render a dark background and properly exposed subject. HSS is really useful. It's not true sync - the flash emits a continuous stream of short flash pulses but it obviously imposes a big demand on the flashgun, so works best at fairly large apertures and reasonably close shooting distances.
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I'd love to see some samples of portraits shot with the HSS.

Do you think the Mk2 is worth the extra cost over a used Mk1?
 
redmonkee said:
I'd love to see some samples of portraits shot with the HSS.

Do you think the Mk2 is worth the extra cost over a used Mk1?
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I have the Mark1 and I'm chuffed with it, but No2 Son has the Mark2 and I'd have say it's worth the difference although you wont go wrong with either.
 
Main benefits of the 580EX/EXii is 2/3rds of a stop more light over the 430EX/EXii, and master controller functions over E-TTL compatible guns, ie not the YN 560. But you could trigger that remotely using its S2 mode.

If it's a choice between the 580EX and EXii, then obviously take the EXii (performance is identical) but the differences are relatively minor and the real choice is between cheap/used vs new/expensive. Put it this way, I have four 580EX and no intention of changing even one of them. Some people prefer the Mki because of the easier master/slave switching.

HSS is brilliant, but you'll not overpower bright sun with it (you'll struggle to do that consistently with any hot-shoe gun, regardless). As CT says, it's inherantly wasteful of power and just turning it on loses you two stops - basically cuts max range in half. And the power is effectively halved every time you go up a stop of shutter speed because it's actually ambient light that lasts just long enough for the shutter to complete its full cycle.

Another benefit of Canon's HSS is it works seemlessly - just turn it on and the camera switches in and out of HSS mode automatically as the shutter speed rises and falls below x-sync. So long as you're in range, you won't even know it's working - just concentrate on the shoot :thumbs:

I use HSS a lot, but then I have a 5D2 with a max x-sync of 1/200sec; your 1D3 runs to 1/330sec I think, so you'll need it less often.
 
Ok I understand that i'd need more power in the flash to completely overpower the sun.

So back to fill flash. Lets say I'm shooting in AV mode and wanted to shoot at f1.4 (to throw the background OOF) in mid day bright sunlight and the camera gives me a shutter speed of say over 1/1000th but i'm getting shadows under the eyes how best would I fill these in.

Would it be easier with a reflector? but bear in mind I wouldn't have an assistant, or could I still achieve this with HSS?
 
redmonkee said:
Ok I understand that i'd need more power in the flash to completely overpower the sun.

So back to fill flash. Lets say I'm shooting in AV mode and wanted to shoot at f1.4 (to throw the background OOF) in mid day bright sunlight and the camera gives me a shutter speed of say over 1/1000th but i'm getting shadows under the eyes how best would I fill these in.

Would it be easier with a reflector? but bear in mind I wouldn't have an assistant, or could I still achieve this with HSS?
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Reflectors are good, nice soft light, but tricky unless you're an octopus.

Fill-in flash is the best answer, and if you keep the distance sensible, something like a 580EX will have no trouble with that. Fill-flash often needs surprisingly little light to make a big difference - lifts shadows and puts a nice sparkle in the eyes - but if the sun is bright and behind the subject, verging on silhouette and needing the flash to do a lot of work, then you need to watch the distance in HSS mode.

When the flash is contributing a lot of the light, I use a deflector to soften it - Lumiquest Quik Bounce is my favourite. Does all sorts of other cool stuff too :thumbs:

Very good book is Syl Arena's Speedliter's Handbook, £18 Amazon. Also check out NK Guy's PhotoNotes for lots of technical info http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ and the Stobist 101 http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/11/lighting-101-now-available-in-pdf.html

Get a good gun, learn a bit about light and how to use it, and you won't look back :)
 
I'd also recommend Syl Arena's book, I find it an invaluable resource.

I have the 580exII here but it's a secondary choice to the cheaper slightly less smooth Nissin 866.

The Nissin has a little sub flash which is great for fill flash when the head is raised, you get a lovely fill light with the added benefit of catchlights i the eyes and less shadows in the eye sockets.
 
I dont know whether you have any ND filters but take a look at this idea of working.
Not Hss just the use of an ND filter to kill the unwanted light.
 
OP doesn't want to kill the unwanted light, he wants to reduce shadows with fill flash.

Different thing.
 
Oops just read the HSS and thought about what I had read.:(
 
ukcyberboy said:
Oops just read the HSS and thought about what I had read.:(
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It's relevant - the OP is talking about fill-in flash and HSS which you often need when the ambient level is high.

The problem is that the shutter speed needs to rise above the x-sync ceiling. HSS gets around that, but is power-limited. So if you want to overpower the sun, you need a big flash (rule of thumb is at least 400ws, studio jobbie) to provide enough light, and then use an ND filter to pull the whole lot down below max x-sync.

This is what the guy in the link is doing, and in that case it's allowed him to shoot flash, outdoors in bright ambient light, and at low f/numbers for shallow depth of field.
 
Thanks Hoppy
I think I have a handle on that now, my thoughts were that he may want to try that if he wanted.:thinking:
I gotta get out and shoot people:naughty:
 
HoppyUK said:
It's relevant - the OP is talking about fill-in flash and HSS which you often need when the ambient level is high.

The problem is that the shutter speed needs to rise above the x-sync ceiling. HSS gets around that, but is power-limited. So if you want to overpower the sun, you need a big flash (rule of thumb is at least 400ws, studio jobbie) to provide enough light, and then use an ND filter to pull the whole lot down below max x-sync.

This is what the guy in the link is doing, and in that case it's allowed him to shoot flash, outdoors in bright ambient light, and at low f/numbers for shallow depth of field.
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I understand what you are saying but that is not what the OP asked advice for, he never mentioned HSS.

Quote; I want to know how I use my YN560 to add a little fill on bright sunny days to reduce the shadows under the subject's eyes.

We don't want to bamboozle him with too much info regardless how well intended do we?
 
admirable said:
I understand what you are saying but that is not what the OP asked advice for, he never mentioned HSS.

Quote; I want to know how I use my YN560 to add a little fill on bright sunny days to reduce the shadows under the subject's eyes.

We don't want to bamboozle him with too much info regardless how well intended do we?
Click to expand...

:thinking: Post #9?
 
redmonkee said:
Guys many thanks for all the advice and tips.

I'm now going to borrow an ETTL flash from a very kind member on here. However i'm still unsure how I can shoot at really wide apertures on a bright day and still get the flash to fire to add a little fill :thinking:
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:thinking: Post #8?

Av, HSS enabled, shoot. Adjust to taste. Dead easy.

Try to keep the shutter speed down, by dropping ISO if necessary. If you don't need to go over the x-sync HSS threshold, then the gun will have more power and recycle faster. If you do need to run over max x-sync, then the longer the shutter speed the less flash power you'll waste and you'll get max range and faster recycle.

If the gun you're borrowing doesn't have HSS, you're welcome to try one of my 580EX guns. I have a few ;) :D
 
HoppyUK said:
:thinking: Post #8?

Av, HSS enabled, shoot. Adjust to taste. Dead easy.

Try to keep the shutter speed down, by dropping ISO if necessary. If you don't need to go over the x-sync HSS threshold, then the gun will have more power and recycle faster. If you do need to run over max x-sync, then the longer the shutter speed the less flash power you'll waste and you'll get max range and faster recycle.

If the gun you're borrowing doesn't have HSS, you're welcome to try one of my 580EX guns. I have a few ;) :D
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Sorry Richard I missed that one:cuckoo:

I didn't realise it would be that easy. Would you recommend keeping the flash on camera when only using it as fill?
 
It's that easy :) You just need to give it a go. The trick is to get the fill-in ratio right, which you do (amongst other methods) by tweaking the flash and ambient levels with the independent +/- compensation controls on the gun and camera. When in doubt, less flash is usually more :thumbs:

Fill-in is one of the few times when direct on-camera on-axis flash is actually best. You can do it with the pop-up, if you had one. When you get it right, it's unnoticeable to the untrained eye, it looks completely natural. But as the flash becomes increasingly dominant, as it sometimes must or because you want it to be, then you need to think about softening the light a bit (eg Lumiquest Quik Bounce that I use, or the LQ Pocket Bouncer that is similar for this sort of thing) and moving it off-camera for a bit of modelling. A short E-TTL cord is good for that, gun held up in your left hand or on a bracket.
 
Phillip, as Hoppy says, fill flash with an on-camera/on-axis flash can be very flaterring and it's easy because you don't have to have an external light so you're free to move around the subject at will. However, it's easy for the flash to take over if you switch shooting positions and the flash decides to whack too much light in - then you kight as well be on a static, off-camera lighting rig.

I tend to use a TTL cord and a small (12"x12") softbox as my fill light these days, mainly because the softbox is a bit more forgiving if the flash decides to add a bit too much power in (unless it's dialled down on purpose) - I am still a sucker for full manual control though, which is fine if I have the luxury of time to set a shot up. It also gives that nice softness you get with a diffuser, which helps with skin, and it works well coming in from the opposite direction to the sun, effectively cross-lighting the subject. This is one I did today for a magazine...


Lighting Test by Pat MacInnes, on Flickr

Softbox coming in from left - just adds a soft fall-off - with ambient coming in from camera right to make sure the shadows aren't too dense and moody looking. It was all done in manual (at the time the light was constant so no hassles) although in changing light I'd probably stick the flash on TTL to help me out a little.
 
Very nice work Pat, as usual :thumbs:
 
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