Fill flash and sunshine

xxxRebeccaxxx

xxxRebeccaxxx

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Rebecca
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hi everyone, just wondering when you shoot outside in the sunshine do you use a fill flash?
 
When shooting people or animals, yes I do - just a little.
 
xxxRebeccaxxx said:
hi everyone, just wondering when you shoot outside in the sunshine do you use a fill flash?
Click to expand...

Yes, quite often. Almost always with people.

It often makes a massive difference, makes the shot basically, especially against the light. Sometimes it just helps a bit, and it rarely does any harm.

High Speed Sync and auto-TTL flash, using +/- compensation to taste, makes it so easy :thumbs:
 
thanks yea my flash is on ETTL so it does it all for me! im so scared im doing my first ever paid shoot tomorrow!! fingers crossed it goes well x
 
What camera and flash are you using?
 
HoppyUK said:
Hi i sorry to jump on your thread.
I have not used this method.So am looking for a bit of clarification in laymen's terms.
I shoot with a Canon 450d, generally in AV mode.
So would I just pop the flash up and compose shot and take photo as normal check image on lcd them go into the menu and adjust the flash compensation to suit? If I understand correctly the camera in Av mode with the flash up will expose the shot as normal eg: ignore the flash even though it is going to fire.
"sounds wrong now I typed it"

Gary
Click to expand...
 
only a basic Canon 10D and a speedlite 550EX, im a student c so i borrow my equipment from uni :)
 
I was playing around the other day, trying to understand fill flash a little better, using 550D and 430 flash. I was trying to get the aperture as big as possible, sometimes in the display I lost the "h" symbol, which I think means the high speed sync would not function. I thought this was due to the shutter speed dropping below a certain threshold for the flash, but it did it at 200th.
I am waiting for Mastering Canon EOS Flash book to come, which I am hoping will help me understand it all a little more.
But I hope to pick up a few tips from this thread as well.
 
cargo said:
Hi i sorry to jump on your thread.
I have not used this method.So am looking for a bit of clarification in laymen's terms.
I shoot with a Canon 450d, generally in AV mode.
So would I just pop the flash up and compose shot and take photo as normal check image on lcd them go into the menu and adjust the flash compensation to suit? If I understand correctly the camera in Av mode with the flash up will expose the shot as normal eg: ignore the flash even though it is going to fire.
"sounds wrong now I typed it"

Gary
Click to expand...

Best way is to set Av, with f/number and ISO to taste. With the flash on E-TTL, the camera will set a shutter speed that gives correct exposure for the background. At the same time, the flash will moderate the power to match the f/number (and ISO of course) so you should have a perfectly balanced result. In theory.

The problem is that flash exposure is difficult to calculate as it's very dependant on distance. Futhermore, the amount of fill-in flash you want is both subjective and dependant on the subject and conditions. All of which means, you might want to change it.

It's a doddle. Check the LCD/histogram/blinkies and if the flash image is wrong, adjust it with +/- compensation on the gun (adjusts power). If the background is wrong, you can lighten/darken that independently with the compensation ont the camera (adjusts shutter speed). If the light is bright, make sure you can see the LCD properly as you're using it to determine exposure; the histogram helps to confirm this.

In terms of exposure, that's all there is to it. A couple of things to note. If the subject is off-centre, this can lead the camera to think that it needs to expose for the background and the foreground subject will get blasted. So, point the camera directly at the subject and press the Flash Exposure Lock button* (FEL*). This fires the pre-flash which sets and locks the flash power correctly. Then recompose the picture and the main flash will go out at the right setting. (See handbook)

The other thing. In bright sun, it's quite likely that the shutter speed required will rise above the max x-sync speed (usually 1/200sec or 1/250sec). If you can moderate that by selecting a higher f/number or lower ISO, then that's the best way but you might not want to do that, or not be able to.

In which case, switch to High Speed Sync (HSS). This pulses the flash (faster than you can see, it looks quite normal) long enough for the shutter to complete its full cycle and you can therefore use any shutter speed you like. The only drawback is that this uses a great deal of power so even when the flash is flat out the effective range is reduced (and it will take longer to recycle). If you don't go above 10ft or so, you'll be fine.

There's another thing about HSS with some cameras/guns (check handbook) and that is if you switch it on, it only engages when it needs to at higher shutter speeds, and switches out again when the shutter speed drops back down. So basically you can just leave it on and let the camera worry about it.

xxxRebeccaxxx said:
only a basic Canon 10D and a speedlite 550EX, im a student c so i borrow my equipment from uni :)
Click to expand...

Sorted :thumbs: Just wanted to check you'd got a separate flash with HSS as you might need it in the sun tomorrow :)
 
AMac said:
I was playing around the other day, trying to understand fill flash a little better, using 550D and 430 flash. I was trying to get the aperture as big as possible, sometimes in the display I lost the "h" symbol, which I think means the high speed sync would not function. I thought this was due to the shutter speed dropping below a certain threshold for the flash, but it did it at 200th.
I am waiting for Mastering Canon EOS Flash book to come, which I am hoping will help me understand it all a little more.
But I hope to pick up a few tips from this thread as well.
Click to expand...

On 550D, HSS will not work at 1/200sec or longer. The flash works more efficiently without it.

To understand why this is (and before that excellent book you've ordered arrives ;) ) have a google on 'focal plane shutter'.

Edit: basically, with a focal plane shutter the higher speeds are a bit of a trick. The shutter only ever runs at one fixed speed and shorter durations are created by releasing the second shutter blind/curtain before the first one has reached the bottom of the frame. At the very highest speeds, the gap between the two is less than a mm and while the whole shutter cycle might take maybe 50ms or so, each part of the sensor is only exposed to light for a fraction of that time.

This is no good for normal flash, which must be fired when the entire sensor is uncovered. The fastest speed at which this happens is the max x-sync speed (1/200sec on a 550D). HSS works by pulsing the flash very very fast, like 50,000 times per sec, creating effectively continuous light for the whole 50ms-ish cycle.
 
HoppyUK said:
Yes, quite often. Almost always with people.

It often makes a massive difference, makes the shot basically, especially against the light. Sometimes it just helps a bit, and it rarely does any harm.

High Speed Sync and auto-TTL flash, using +/- compensation to taste, makes it so easy :thumbs:
Click to expand...

:agree::plusone:

I've been using it for the most of the day...

Av - 2/3 Flash Comp HSS (Similar to above) just to give that bit of a lift to the subject......

The ETTL is SO easy/pleasure to use......

Just be aware of recomposing any of your shots...... You may wish to lock your flash exposure before recomposing.... I always forget !! Ha ! got caught out a few times today... wish they would keep still....


Phil
 
HoppyUK said:
On 550D, HSS will not work at 1/200sec or longer. The flash works more efficiently without it.

To understand why this is (and before that excellent book you've ordered arrives ;) ) have a google on 'focal plane shutter'.
Click to expand...

Ha!

Just spotted your reply.......

Just popped outside with a 550ex..... and (I know this goes without saying) your right....

Not noticed that before...... it struggles when you need over 1/200th...

Even if you try and exposure lock...

Thanks heaven for 580's ;)

Phil
 
I would be inclined to use the lowest ISO that allows you to achieve the shutter speed you require, along with the aperture you require for the shot....

Have a practice beforehand......
 
Agree with Phil.

It depends on the light of course, but if it's sunny, ideally you want to keep your shutter speed at or below the max x-sync speed. You have the option of HSS, but if you can do without it so much the better.

If it's bright then a low ISO will obviously help that, plus better image quality. In the end it's a balancing act and you have to make decisions based on the conditions. If it's not so bright, you might need to raise the ISO (or lower the f/number with the knock-on effects of that) in order not to let shutter speeds get too long.

I would just stick the flash on and see what you get. The whole point of working off the LCD image is that you can adjust things as you want along the way.
 
xxxRebeccaxxx said:
thanks yea my flash is on ETTL so it does it all for me! im so scared im doing my first ever paid shoot tomorrow!! fingers crossed it goes well x
Click to expand...


I hope you've been practicing, it doesn't bode well that you're asking for very basic advice the evening before a paid shoot......
 
Flash In The Pan said:
I hope you've been practicing, it doesn't bode well that you're asking for very basic advice the evening before a paid shoot......
Click to expand...

Dont normally do this but


+ 1
on above


MD
 
its ok i have been practising! its for a family friend so they know my level so its all good, its not a full on paid job jeeeeeez no way would i be ready for that! iv only just completed my first yea at uni!
 
xxxRebeccaxxx said:
its ok i have been practising! its for a family friend so they know my level so its all good, its not a full on paid job jeeeeeez no way would i be ready for that! iv only just completed my first yea at uni!
Click to expand...



Lol


sorry if it came across a bit rude but for a paid gig it would have been a bit of a worry.....



Good luck AND dont worry about how long you take to get a shot... If it comes out right it will be worth the wait..



But do talk to the model as much as possible tell them what your doing and why..


" when someone is pointing a camera at you8 every second is like a min.. im,ho"


MD
 
lol thats fine when your in this business you have to build a thick skin! im used to it!! but practice makes perfect :)
 
..MD.. said:
?



on what ...? Agreeing with another member or what was said....!!!!!


?


md
Click to expand...

That she is asking for advice (better late than never)!
 
HoppyUK said:
That she is asking for advice (better late than never)!
Click to expand...



Ahhhhh I agree..

Sorry if I seemed off...

Smilies not working on my pc....



" Insert wave here"


MD
 
HoppyUK said:
On 550D, HSS will not work at 1/200sec or longer. The flash works more efficiently without it.

To understand why this is (and before that excellent book you've ordered arrives ;) ) have a google on 'focal plane shutter'.

Edit: basically, with a focal plane shutter the higher speeds are a bit of a trick. The shutter only ever runs at one fixed speed and shorter durations are created by releasing the second shutter blind/curtain before the first one has reached the bottom of the frame. At the very highest speeds, the gap between the two is less than a mm and while the whole shutter cycle might take maybe 50ms or so, each part of the sensor is only exposed to light for a fraction of that time.

This is no good for normal flash, which must be fired when the entire sensor is uncovered. The fastest speed at which this happens is the max x-sync speed (1/200sec on a 550D). HSS works by pulsing the flash very very fast, like 50,000 times per sec, creating effectively continuous light for the whole 50ms-ish cycle.
Click to expand...

Hi,
thanks for the information and recommendation for the book, I think I need to have a good read. I tried it on ETTL and camera on AV then selecting the largest aperture, but did not seem to work as well. I guess you would still use a diffuser outside as well?
 
AMac said:
Hi,
thanks for the information and recommendation for the book, I think I need to have a good read. I tried it on ETTL and camera on AV then selecting the largest aperture, but did not seem to work as well. I guess you would still use a diffuser outside as well?
Click to expand...

I'm not clear - what didn't seem to work as well as what? Diffusers are generally pretty useless outside, as they work by bouncing light off surrounding surfaces, usually the ceiling.

Post a pic and it should be easy to see what's happening ;)
 
Blimey. I shot loads outside in the summer with my trusty Metz.
All manual. Very sunny day 125th @ F11 or F16 set flash to the same F stop out put.
Cloudy ish day say 125th @ F8 set flash 2/3 stops under.

Sun should alway be 10 to 2 o'clock position behind subject.

Never a prob.... All this third of a power jibber has my wanting a beer.
 
Daryl said:
Blimey. I shot loads outside in the summer with my trusty Metz.
All manual. Very sunny day 125th @ F11 or F16 set flash to the same F stop out put.
Cloudy ish day say 125th @ F8 set flash 2/3 stops under.

Sun should alway be 10 to 2 o'clock position behind subject.

Never a prob.... All this third of a power jibber has my wanting a beer.
Click to expand...

Cheers Daryl, some good advice. If you want shallow DOF is it easier to choose HSS with ETTL with the camera set on AP mode?
Found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4PNO7-JmmA
 
HoppyUK said:
No. Just the opposite. That's the point of the vid ;)
Click to expand...

:thinking: Sorry Hoppy, how do you mean the opposite?
If you want shallow DOF is it easier to choose HSS with ETTL with the camera set on AP mode?
Click to expand...
That is the point of the video, and looks simple enough. Are you suggesting there's a simpler/better way? Sorry if I'm thick :nuts:

Always appreciate the great advice you give on here btw, just sometimes I need to get my head around it.
 
NigelPaul said:
:thinking: Sorry Hoppy, how do you mean the opposite?
That is the point of the video, and looks simple enough. Are you suggesting there's a simpler/better way? Sorry if I'm thick :nuts:

Always appreciate the great advice you give on here btw, just sometimes I need to get my head around it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your kind comments Nigel, but in this case I'm sorry to say they are richly undeserved :nuts:

It's me being thick, and you that have got it the right way round! :eek:

Yes, in bright sun, for shallow DoF use high speed sync, because you'll probably need a high shutter speed. For maximum DoF, which will naturally drive the shutter speed down, normal flash mode.

Apolgies bud, you've obviously got it ;)

Edit: and that is the point of the vid! No idea why I read your post differently LOL
 
Cheers Hoppy. I was a bit confused, but no need to apologise. You give so much to this forum and hope you continue to do so. Cheers. :thumbs:
 
HoppyUK said:
Best way is to set Av, with f/number and ISO to taste. With the flash on E-TTL, the camera will set a shutter speed that gives correct exposure for the background. At the same time, the flash will moderate the power to match the f/number (and ISO of course) so you should have a perfectly balanced result. In theory.

The problem is that flash exposure is difficult to calculate as it's very dependant on distance. Futhermore, the amount of fill-in flash you want is both subjective and dependant on the subject and conditions. All of which means, you might want to change it.

It's a doddle. Check the LCD/histogram/blinkies and if the flash image is wrong, adjust it with +/- compensation on the gun (adjusts power). If the background is wrong, you can lighten/darken that independently with the compensation ont the camera (adjusts shutter speed). If the light is bright, make sure you can see the LCD properly as you're using it to determine exposure; the histogram helps to confirm this.

In terms of exposure, that's all there is to it. A couple of things to note. If the subject is off-centre, this can lead the camera to think that it needs to expose for the background and the foreground subject will get blasted. So, point the camera directly at the subject and press the Flash Exposure Lock button* (FEL*). This fires the pre-flash which sets and locks the flash power correctly. Then recompose the picture and the main flash will go out at the right setting. (See handbook)

The other thing. In bright sun, it's quite likely that the shutter speed required will rise above the max x-sync speed (usually 1/200sec or 1/250sec). If you can moderate that by selecting a higher f/number or lower ISO, then that's the best way but you might not want to do that, or not be able to.

In which case, switch to High Speed Sync (HSS). This pulses the flash (faster than you can see, it looks quite normal) long enough for the shutter to complete its full cycle and you can therefore use any shutter speed you like. The only drawback is that this uses a great deal of power so even when the flash is flat out the effective range is reduced (and it will take longer to recycle). If you don't go above 10ft or so, you'll be fine.

There's another thing about HSS with some cameras/guns (check handbook) and that is if you switch it on, it only engages when it needs to at higher shutter speeds, and switches out again when the shutter speed drops back down. So basically you can just leave it on and let the camera worry about it.



Sorted :thumbs: Just wanted to check you'd got a separate flash with HSS as you might need it in the sun tomorrow :)
Click to expand...

WOW thanks for the reply.
I appreciate the time it must have taken to type that lot,not to mention your kindness in willing to share the information you have learned over the years.
At the mo I only have the flash that is on board my 450d and have not even used that as of yet.
I have had a mooch around with it since reading your reply and have seen the effect of the pulse and +/- flash compansation so can,t wait to try this stuff out.
Will have to purchase one of those speedlights in someones sig on here.

Thanks again.

Gary
 
cargo said:
WOW thanks for the reply.
I appreciate the time it must have taken to type that lot,not to mention your kindness in willing to share the information you have learned over the years.
At the mo I only have the flash that is on board my 450d and have not even used that as of yet.
I have had a mooch around with it since reading your reply and have seen the effect of the pulse and +/- flash compansation so can,t wait to try this stuff out.
Will have to purchase one of those speedlights in someones sig on here.

Thanks again.

Gary
Click to expand...

Cheers Gary :)

You can't do HSS with any pop-up flash - they don't have it, because they're just not powerful enough to pull it off.

The pulsing you've seen sounds like a focus assist feature? Basically if you can see it pulsing, it's not HSS - that's way too fast.
 
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