EV Charging Stations/Hubs

[JohnC6]

I read about how road signs for charging locations on main roads are not allowed because of government rules about hot food and free parking. Under Dept for Transport criteria, not one of the 112 rapid charging stations by A-roads and motorways would be allowed to have signage directing motorists to the charging facilities. I know that Teslas will show all their charging stations on any given route selected prior to a journey but I don't know if non-Tesla vehicles have the in-built technology to show where charging stations are.

The proposed rules require charging stations, with at least 12 150 + Kw chargers, to provide hot drinks and cooked hot food for consumption on the premises. If they want to put up signage, the rules also require them to provide 'free parking for two hours' and "at least ten parking spaces for non-charging vehicles'. Under the proposed guidelines even chargers located by a Greggs or a McDonalds would not be allowed signage because of the requirement for the charging station itself to have food and drink "for consumption on the premises" itself. .Some in the EV trade says it's hampering sales because one main reason people don't want an EV is the, seemingly, lack of charging stations..ie.. range-anxiety. It's why we won't buy one. Infact, E.On carried out a small poll amongst 5,000 drivers and 28% said range-anxiety stopped them from buying an EV.

According to the Dept. for Transport, there are 86,000 public chargers which includes 17,534 that are 50kW or above and 10% of them are at motorway service stations or ferry terminals. The government is pushing people to buy EVs yet are lagging in joined-up thinking re charging stations/hubs. The government has said it's wortking with the EV industry to refine it's proposals. People with EVs don't plan their journey's around the availability of hot food and drinks but around charging speed and costs.

This is a Times article and The Times is paywalled but here's another source.

No hot food? No road sign! EV charging hubs told to up their game | Auto Express

Government rules require EV charging hubs to offer food, parking and more if they wish to be signposted

www.autoexpress.co.uk

 

[munch]

Not sure what your point is. As most people I know use various apps to see not only where they can charge but more importantly the availability of those chargers. (not that are particurly accurate.

 

[JohnC6]

As you see, I've just posted an article I read in The Times that I thought would be interesting. That question re "what's the point being made ? should be directed to those who wrote the article.

George Nixon. Senior Money Reporter... and Ben Clatworthy. Transport and Travel Correspondent.

Feedback@thetimes.com

Or..re the Auto Express article. Tom Jervis ....hello@autoexpress.co.uk.

Hope this helps.

 

[cambsno]

I dont get the point of the post either. I dont know about other makes but I can program my Tesla for charging stations. I can use Apple Maps too, or if I was a fan of a particular charging company I could search for those.

Yes, there will be exceptions but assuming someone can charge at home, they will only need charging stations on long journeys. So actually makes sense for them to have food etc. as you can tie it in with a drink, look break and by the time you have done that you are fuelled up. Even if you cant charge at home, most big supermarkets near me have charging, so you plug in while you do the weeks shop.

It is unlikely that someone would set out and be reliant on road signs to direct them to EV charging. They would have planned that before hand. Worst case is that they know that motorway services have EV charging, or they pull over and check maps/app to see where they are. That is more useful as it could direct you to a faster charging one.

 

[LeeRatters]

I guess (from a quick skim read) that the point of the post is that the Government want us in EV controllable cars and at the same time the same Government make rules to refuse signage for charging locations for those cars - with charging being an important thing for people.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Google maps, innit?

 

[cambsno]

I guess (from a quick skim read) that the point of the post is that the Government want us in EV controllable cars and at the same time the same Government make rules to refuse signage for charging locations for those cars - with charging being an important thing for people.

Charging is a different mindset with EV as fuelling is to ICE. With my old car I tended to fill up every couple of weeks. I may even set off on a long journey with low fuel and fill up en-route. With electric (assuming home charging) you top up overnight. If no home charging you would probably fill up the day before (maybe while shopping) so you have a full tank for your journey (like with fuel, cheaper to do that than pay motorway servcies).

 

[Steep]

Yup, EV driving engenders a different mindset.
Your car satnav will guide you to a chargeing station whenever you need one and you are in strange country and have to drive further than your range allows. I did exactly this a couple of weeks ago picking up a car from South of Luton and driving it home to the Highlands. I know (just as ICE drivers know) that a motorway service station will have what I need and the satnav map confirmed and guided me to it. No need for signs. In my own area I know where the chargers are.

 

[JohnC6]

Not sure what your point is. As most people I know use various apps to see not only where they can charge but more importantly the availability of those chargers. (not that are particurly accurate.

I dont get the point of the post either. I dont know about other makes but I can program my Tesla for charging stations. I can use Apple Maps too, or if I was a fan of a particular charging company I could search for those.

Yes, there will be exceptions but assuming someone can charge at home, they will only need charging stations on long journeys. So actually makes sense for them to have food etc. as you can tie it in with a drink, look break and by the time you have done that you are fuelled up. Even if you cant charge at home, most big supermarkets near me have charging, so you plug in while you do the weeks shop.

It is unlikely that someone would set out and be reliant on road signs to direct them to EV charging. They would have planned that before hand. Worst case is that they know that motorway services have EV charging, or they pull over and check maps/app to see where they are. That is more useful as it could direct you to a faster charging one.

Ok..as two of you are asking the same question I need to clarify. I can see that what I was highlighting has not been picked up as the reason for the post which I did state at the outset..first sentence. So...the reason I posted it was because of the bizarre DoT regulations about charging hubs/stations requiring hot food/drink outlets with free parking to be available to be able to signpost them from A roads/motorways. . It really wasn't about how a driver is able to access location information from his/her vehicle. I did mention Teslas .,( (Simon) because I asked one of my neighbours if when he programmes a route is he shown all Tesla charging points, as I expected from what he showed me when he got the car 8 months ago, and,of course... yes it does. I assumed non-Tesla drivers could use an App and munch confirmed that..

I had to copy the article because of the paywall ..I did say that at the end and then thought to Google it to see if the same information could be found from an article that was 'free' to read and I did..AutoExpress. As you see, those in the EV trade have said that those regulations are contributing to a loss of sales because of the so-called 'range anxiety'.Also, the Do T is liaising with representatives of the EV industry to ,as it puts it..'refine the regulations'..meaning, I assume, acknowledging the regs need to be regarding hot food/drink along with free parking in relation to road signage to EV charging stations/hubs.

munch..When you said.."not sure what your point is ? " my immediate thought was..it's not my point but that of the correspondents writing the articles. It came across as 'shooting the messenger" and getting down a rabbit hole of exchanges so, in this instance, had you said that you find those regs bizarre too but drivers can download an App that gives locations I wouldn't now be in a position of having to clarify my reason for posting.

Just have to put it down to the vagaries of online conversations. I expect I'm sometimes criticised for 'going the extra mile' when posting and the reason is to, hopefully, avoid what's just happened. I recall Toni..ancient_mariner ..saying to me that I analyse every word in a post and, yes, I have to acknowledge that but it also makes me be sure my posts aren't misunderstood.

 

[JohnC6]

I guess (from a quick skim read) that the point of the post is that the Government want us in EV controllable cars and at the same time the same Government make rules to refuse signage for charging locations for those cars - with charging being an important thing for people.

Pleased to see you understood why I posted it, Lee.

Those regs re signage have been in operation for years before the advent of EVs and no-one in government thought to address it. Now it's been drawn to their attention by the EV industry they will now do something about it. It would have been better had the Dept of Transport spokesperson, when approached for comment by The Times, just stated that with the drive..no pun intended, to increase sales of EVs and install more charging points nationwide the regs re signage will be updated..not "refine its proposals"

 

[cambsno]

But we dont have signs up for every petrol station?

Maybe it's something that only EV drivers understand. The majority will not use public chargers that often, and if they do they will normally be planned, you wouldn't just drive and think, oh, I need to charge. I said it earlier, the mindset needed with an EV and fuelling is different to that of ICE.

 

[munch]

I think it is yet another case of just because it appears in a newspaper, it doesn't make it news.

Whilst you think the DoT decision bizarre, there has been a move to try and reduce unnecessary signage as it can end up with "signage overload" and effect road safety.

 

[cambsno]

I think it is yet another case of just because it appears in a newspaper, it doesn't make it news.

Whilst you think the DoT decision bizarre, there has been a move to try and reduce unnecessary signage as it can end up with "signage overload" and effect road safety.

There are too many signs and we not need to know where the nearest ev chargers are.

 

[JohnC6]

But we dont have signs up for every petrol station?

Maybe it's something that only EV drivers understand. The majority will not use public chargers that often, and if they do they will normally be planned, you wouldn't just drive and think, oh, I need to charge. I said it earlier, the mindset needed with an EV and fuelling is different to that of ICE.

Re no signs for petrol stations. It's because they are in abundance. In the future..I have no idea how long,of course, EV charging stations /hubs will be much more common.

Re home-charging. All my near neighbours either side..one has a BMW hybrid that needs charging, have a charger but, as far as I know, LAs are just starting to create charging points in roads where there are terraced houses .

Terraced Houses: Guide to Charging an Electric Vehicle — Kerbo Charge

In this guide, we’ll break down everything you need to know when it comes to charging an EV when living in a terraced house and the options available to you.

www.kerbocharge.com

Tbh,Simon..You're still not taking onboard what my post was about. I see munch has.

 

[JohnC6]

I think it is yet another case of just because it appears in a newspaper, it doesn't make it news.

Whilst you think the DoT decision bizarre, there has been a move to try and reduce unnecessary signage as it can end up with "signage overload" and effect road safety.

I'm not sure what your first paragraph is about. It's obviously a problem important enough for the EV charging industry to liase with the Dept of Transport who, it seems are responding positively. So, in that sense, it's a story worth publishing for those considering buying an EV but worry about long-distance journeys. The OED defines news as...

Newly received or noteworthy information, especially about recent events. I'd say it was, 'noteworthy information.'

From the Auto Express article.

Ultimately, the automotive industry perceives public awareness of EV charging infrastructure as one of the key elements of building confidence surrounding the transition to electric cars. CEO of charge point operator trade body, Charge UK, Vicky Read, explained that the industry is: “in discussion with the Department for Transport on behalf of members with regards to increasing the flexibility in the criteria for EV charging hub signage. This is a real opportunity to not only help current EV drivers but build others' confidence in switching to electric as the infrastructure becomes more visible. We are optimistic that we will start to see this shift happening soon."

Re your last paragraph..concern about road signage overload, then, yes, that would be a valid reason for imposing conditions re a charging station before putting up signage. I wasn't aware of that.

 

[JohnC6]

There are too many signs and we not need to know where the nearest ev chargers are.

AI doesn't agree with you.

"Road signage is crucial for locating them and for the overall adoption of electric vehicles. Consistent and clear signage, both on roads and at the charging spots, helps current drivers find charging points and assures potential EV owners that a charging network exists, reducing "range anxiety"

 

[cambsno]

AI doesn't agree with you.

"Road signage is crucial for locating them and for the overall adoption of electric vehicles. Consistent and clear signage, both on roads and at the charging spots, helps current drivers find charging points and assures potential EV owners that a charging network exists, reducing "range anxiety"

So Ai has more relevance than an actual ev driver?

There are plenty of things ai gets wrong about things like football.

 

[cambsno]

Re no signs for petrol stations. It's because they are in abundance. In the future..I have no idea how long,of course, EV charging stations /hubs will be much more common.

Re home-charging. All my near neighbours either side..one has a BMW hybrid that needs charging, have a charger but, as far as I know, LAs are just starting to create charging points in roads where there are terraced houses .

Terraced Houses: Guide to Charging an Electric Vehicle — Kerbo Charge

In this guide, we’ll break down everything you need to know when it comes to charging an EV when living in a terraced house and the options available to you.

www.kerbocharge.com

Tbh,Simon..You're still not taking onboard what my post was about. I see munch has.

And you don’t take on board the experience of ev users or how driving an ev is different to ice.

You do plan more if on long trips. With an ice I would t necessarily plan where i was going to fill up on my way to Manchester. With an ev I would.

You dont generally drive along in an ev and think, oh I need to fill up soon as only 20 miles left. Like an ice, I (and most people) don’t generally drive 200 plus miles in one go. I live in Cambridge and if careful could drive to London, home, London and then home (although may be touch and go). I don’t need to worry about chargers. Unless like August when I went on holiday from Southampton and would be leaving the car for 2 weeks. I looked online and earmarked 2 places to top up on way down.

On the way down I checked on the sat nav to see which was busy and chose my plan b as more spaces. I can also filter by Tesla only or third party, and charging speed. I think other cars have the same.

In over 2 years of driving I have not needed a sign telling me where I can charge. It’s like the advent of Sat nav and smart phones, I don’t need to have a map on the car.

Also you know that every motorway services will have ev and that big supermarkets do

 

[munch]

I'm not sure what your first paragraph is about. It's obviously a problem important enough for the EV charging industry to liase with the Dept of Transport who, it seems are responding positively. So, in that sense, it's a story worth publishing for those considering buying an EV but worry about long-distance journeys. The OED defines news as...

Newly received or noteworthy information, especially about recent events. I'd say it was, 'noteworthy information.'

From the Auto Express article.

Ultimately, the automotive industry perceives public awareness of EV charging infrastructure as one of the key elements of building confidence surrounding the transition to electric cars. CEO of charge point operator trade body, Charge UK, Vicky Read, explained that the industry is: “in discussion with the Department for Transport on behalf of members with regards to increasing the flexibility in the criteria for EV charging hub signage. This is a real opportunity to not only help current EV drivers but build others' confidence in switching to electric as the infrastructure becomes more visible. We are optimistic that we will start to see this shift happening soon."

Re your last paragraph..concern about road signage overload, then, yes, that would be a valid reason for imposing conditions re a charging station before putting up signage. I wasn't aware of that.

So basically the EV industry want the DOT to promote EV cars

 

[Nod]

Charging points don't need signposting - AFAIK, almost all EVs have sat-nav and charge points get flagged on the screens.

 

[JohnC6]

This thread has turned into a issue about whether road signs for charging hubs/stations are necessary or not and it wasn't what I posted about. What is being discussed is a different issue. I can see why it's morphed as posts do .I responded to initial posts about that out of courtesy.

The best I can say at this point is that, taking into consideration what munch said about the Dept for Transport wanting to reduce signage, I can only imagine what they were doing with all those conditions was to put as many obstacles in the way so they wouldn't have to sign-post these facilities rather than outright refuse requests from charging companies which I find strange, and possibly very British, as every major European country has them. Having said that, they were also having to comply with old regs. which applied to petrol/diesel filling stations. I expect a compromise will be reached..also very British.

munch. Re your last post. That occurred to me, too. I think a good solution, because it's beneficial/helpful for the public too, is shared expenditure. Having said that ,I'm sure airports/airlines don't contribute to signage, nor railway companies re stations nor ferry terminals etc. There's out of town shopping malls that have signage,too. There are signs on the M5 for Cribbs Causeway near Bristol which is a massive retail park. I doubt all the retailers make a contribution. On motorways there are signs indicating how far the next services are and even the names of the companies. Maybe they have contributed . I don't know. It's a fair point you make.

I won't be responding getting bogged down,even..any further about whether there should be or should not be signage. It's clearly a marmite subject re EVs. . ... ..sorry.