ETTR or Highlight Enable (or both)?

[reheat module]

I've recently been using the Expose To The Right (ETTR) principle whilst shooting in RAW, using the Histogram.
I've also (historically) used the Highlight Enable feature for the screen view.
Does one have benefits over the other? Should only one be used? Can/should they be used together? Do they both perform the same function?
Many thanks for your professional info.

 

[Phil V]

I could be wrong, but I thought they did opposite things, with Highlight priority artificially reporting the ISO so that the photographer doesn't 'blow' the highlights (giving an extra stop of headroom).

I could be wrong, but if you check you'll find you can't use the highest expanded ISO when using highlight priority mode.

So carefully avoiding blowing the highlights to use HDR and setting highlight priority are both heading in the same direction - I'd ditch the Highlight priority (I did about 6 months after trying it)

 

[reheat module]

Hi Phil, - I think I may have better clarified things in the original post.
-- The ETTR is pushing the curve to the right on the histogram without clipping, to get the max capture on the sensor.
-- The Highlight Enable is for the flashing areas on the rear screen, showing clipping on the Histogram.
Were you possibly thinking of 'Highlight Tone Priority'?

 

[Kodiak Qc]

The way I use my D810's , since they have a much
greater DR than when it was necessary to ETTR
(which is obsolete nowadays), is to setup the light
meter to the one with the (*) at the right

 

[woof woof]

The way I use my D810's , since they have a much
greater DR than when it was necessary to ETTR
(which is obsolete nowadays), is to setup the light
meter to the one with the (*) at the right

Do you mean ETTR is obsolete these days?

I read an article some time ago that said that ETTR wasn't necessary these days but I can't remember the exact details or where I read it so I can't provide a link.

Anyway... With digital I suppose this is something that we can easily test for ourselves by shooting a series of photographs using different techniques (ETTR or not and anything else we can think of) and viewing and processing the results for best effect.

I've very often ETTR and although it may not be strictly necessary doing anything else would involve learning something new and changing what I do

 

[droj]

Shooting in RAW, highlight / shadow warnings tend to be conservative both in camera preview and (less so) later in LR.

Coming from a background of shooting slide film and as a tardy adopter of digital, I have never ettr, but the opposite, and I shoot ettl. Believe me, it works! But you modify your settings by experience. There's no one size fits all for every shot. Judgement is needed. Technology won't always get you out of a hole that you've dug for yourself. So cultivate your judgements.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

Do you mean ETTR is obsolete these days?

Yes, ABSOLUTELY!

What is not clearly understood by many is that ETTR
had nothing with the high lights but with the low lights.

Indeed, it is well known that blown high lights are to be
forgotten for ever since no data is recorded there, it had
more to do with the low lights since trying to recover them
was immediately generating tons of noise.

Coming from a background of shooting slide film and as a tardy adopter of digital

Same thing for me; I converted my operations to digital
only after the D3X was out and tested AND I found its per-
fect RAW converter. Only then was I sure to do the right
thing.

I have never ettr, but the opposite, and I shoot ettl

So did / do / will I.

As today, it is fairly easy to recover the too low keys with
the powerful noise reduction features if necessary AND
it is still impossible to retrieve blown data.

 

[woof woof]

Yes, ABSOLUTELY!

What is not clearly understood by many is that ETTR
had nothing with the high lights but with the low lights.

Yup. I understood that ETTR was a way of capturing more dynamic range but I think I read that this is not necessary with the later and better sensors. I may be remembering it wrong but I think that's the gist of what I read some time ago.

If I am remembering it right and if that article was right ETTR is worthwhile and gets better results with some cameras, maybe older ones not using the later better sensors which seem to give better results when lifting the shadows than was possible some time ago. For example even my MFT cameras are much better in this respect than my larger sensor Canon DSLR's used to be, boosting their shadows often lead to excessive noise. ETTR was therefore a good thing to do.

 

[Nawty]

ETTR came from the days when amp noise was more of a problem than sensor noise and when pushing shadows/exposure you got loads of noise in your shot.

Most modern sensors are great at pushing shadows (Nikon/Sony/Pentax being much better than Canon) so you can ETTL to better preserve highlights without worrying about shadow noise.

I still find that with my m43 cameras a little bit of ETTR still helps (especially as it tends to underexpose anyway) but it only really matters if there's fine detail in the shot I want to preserve, you can still push 2 or 3 stops without much worry.

 

[droj]

Generally, the governing thing is the protection of highlights - apart from maybe light sources and small specular areas. If highlights in the main are 'blown' - ie irrecoverable, you'll likely have an ugly image regardless of anything else - it will be incompetent. So highlights rule.

 

[Alastair]

-- The Highlight Enable is for the flashing areas on the rear screen, showing clipping on the Histogram.

Commonly known as the "blinkies"

TTR was a way of capturing more dynamic range but I think I read that this is not necessary with the later and better sensors

ETTR maximises the use of the camera's full dynamic range to gain more image information in the shadows. For every stop you clip in the highlights you lose a stop of dynamic range in the shadows, and shadow data is the most expensive to lose as it contains the least image data.

Whilst the D810 and the like have a very large dynamic range you can't get around the limitation of the data content of the shadow capture. ETTR will still produce the best quality raw file - although because of the increased dynamic range ETTR could easily look like two stops under-exposed with some scenes, at least in the before- and after-processing samples I'm seeing posted online.

 

[Craig_85]

For me with digital now where you have a built in 21st century light meter (the rgb histogram - especially in a neutral picture style) it is about correct exposure.

I appreciate there are artistic choices regarding that but you still want to be exposing to the right whilst protecting highlights (in any colour channel) from being blown. The cleaner pushed shadows of Sony/Nikon sensors and to an extent latest Canons means you may err on the side of caution more to ensure no blown highlights but if you deliberately underexposed well beneath the highlight clipping then there will be some degradation in lifting things again later.

Like I said initially, live by your histogram. Expose to the right but do not blow highlights.

 

[Alastair]

Yes, ABSOLUTELY!

Surely "highlight weighted" exposure is ETTR-lite, which contradicts your view that ETTR is obsolete. Instead the technology has overtaken the manual technique and provided a similar result via a built-in option.

So did / do / will I.

You can't shoot ETTL and use "highlight weighted" exposure mode. Make your mind up!

 

[Kodiak Qc]

•
Paul,
these are some results I achieved for a client
using my my gear, my approach and workflow.
These takes were selected for their highest DR
challenge.

All shot with a 600 ƒ4 @ ƒ8 on D810.

​

 

[srhmoto]

As a m4/3 user, I always ETTR as I simply don't have the dynamic range latitude of some of the systems mentioned above. I also have the highlight warnings turned on. I also know from experience that I can have some blinkies showing indicating blown highlights, but that there is still details there in the actual raw file. For me, how you do this is all about knowing your equipment, as what works for one might not be at all appropriate for another.

Simon.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

For me, how you do this is all about knowing your equipment, as what works for one might not be at all appropriate for another.

As Paul gave no refs to the gear he uses, I answered
with the experience I have with the gear I work with.

Wisdom is coming out of your mouth, Simon!

 

[LCPete]

As already said it depends on the camera that you are using I shoot with canon crop cameras and find I do need to expose to the right and shoot raw to get the best results
My 550D and 7D especially need ETTR my 7D mk 2 not so much
I wonder if this explains the reputation for noise that the 7D has I am very happy with the images that I get from mine

 

[Phil V]

As already said it depends on the camera that you are using I shoot with canon crop cameras and find I do need to expose to the right and shoot raw to get the best results
My 550D and 7D especially need ETTR my 7D mk 2 not so much
I wonder if this explains the reputation for noise that the 7D has I am very happy with the images that I get from mine

This^

Whilst it's true that the latest Sony sensors are virtually ISO agnostic, the vast majority of cameras out there don't have these brilliant sensors.

And as Canon have the biggest share of the market, and their reputation for crop IQ is fairly poor, there's still an awful lot of people who need to consider ETTR or similar.

 

[Ed Sutton]

You can't shoot ETTL and use "highlight weighted" exposure mode. Make your mind up!

I think there's confusion there between E-TTL (Canon -speak) and ETTL (opposite of ETTR).

Kodiak is a Nikon user if I'm not mistaken. Nikon's highlight priority mode exposes to keep highlights preserved and everything else gets left to its own devices. Isn't that ETTL?

 

[Alastair]

No confusion at this end.

Preserving highlights is ETTR. Unless Nikon reverses the histogram.

 

[Ed Sutton]

No confusion at this end.

Preserving highlights is ETTR. Unless Nikon reverses the histogram.

 

[Craig_85]

This^

Whilst it's true that the latest Sony sensors are virtually ISO agnostic, the vast majority of cameras out there don't have these brilliant sensors.

And as Canon have the biggest share of the market, and their reputation for crop IQ is fairly poor, there's still an awful lot of people who need to consider ETTR or similar.

The point about Sony sensors being ISO less or ISO invariant is an interesting one.

Coming from canon, not only would I expose to the right, I would ISO to the right. Particularly with Astro the random high ISO noise helped to cover up the banded low ISO noise patterns.

With the Sony it was a leap of faith to underexpose Astro stuff knowing I could push it in post with no noise penalty but have the advantage of protecting highlights and retaining dynamic range.

Superb cameras, nothing to worry about. ISO 800 no moonlight, sky and foreground blends where the foreground is +2 stops and +100 shadows;
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/aurora-borealis-iceland.648360/#post-7748417

Apparently the a7rii is ISO less from base of 100!

 

[HoppyUK]

I've recently been using the Expose To The Right (ETTR) principle whilst shooting in RAW, using the Histogram.
I've also (historically) used the Highlight Enable feature for the screen view.
Does one have benefits over the other? Should only one be used? Can/should they be used together? Do they both perform the same function?
Many thanks for your professional info.

You mean Highlight Alert, the over-exposure warning otherwise known as 'blinkies' and that's what you should be checking when shooting ETTR. The histogram is more interesting than actually useful.

Blinkies tell you which areas are blown, but they will also flash on other areas that are on the brink of blowing. When shooting Raw, there is quite a lot of headroom above the point where blinkies begin to flash and highlights actually blowing, usually at least one stop, maybe 1.5 stops. Picture Styles can affect this, particularly the Contrast setting. What you need to do is some quick tests to establish at what point the blinkies begin to flash, and how much headroom you have got above that in post-processing the Raw file, then you know how far you can push it.

As already said it depends on the camera that you are using I shoot with canon crop cameras and find I do need to expose to the right and shoot raw to get the best results
My 550D and 7D especially need ETTR my 7D mk 2 not so much
I wonder if this explains the reputation for noise that the 7D has I am very happy with the images that I get from mine

Yes, it depends very much on the camera and some of the latest models, notably those with Sony sensors like the NIkon D810 and Sony A7R2, have such extraordinary dynamic range, low noise and ISO-less characteristics that they're pretty much rewriting the rules of exposure and ETTL (Expose To The Left) is a very real option. For everyone else though, ETTR with a wary eye on those blinkies is the way for optimum image quality.