Elinchrom ELB or Profoto B1??

[analoganx]

Hi all,

I'm going through quite a quandary at the moment.

It's time to buy another light but finding it pretty tough to decide which one.

I already own one Elinchrom quadra. The oldest one with a lead battery. I was all set to buy a B1 until the new Elinchrom Skyport HS came out.

I do a mixture of studio and location work so the fact that I can now shoot at higher shutter speeds with the new Skyport HS (with my existing kit, instead of buying into the Profoto world) would be a big bonus.

I'm also aware that the Elinchrom HS works at full power where as the Profoto B1 systems HS system only works at low power.

The B1 is also rather heavy a top a stand.

All in all I think I'm leaning towards buying another Elinchrom unit and a Skyport HS but if anyone had some good thoughts about the benefits of a B1, I'd love to hear them.

 

[mike weeks]

I'm also aware that the Elinchrom HS works at full power where as the Profoto B1 systems HS system only works at low power.

No that is not true. They take a different approach working at 1/8000 (above sync speed shots) and there has been no published test comparing exposure levels and both systems lose power. I have seen information that would indicate that there is more light at such speeds from the HS head but the proof is in the pudding and I am hoping to carry out a comparative test.

Mike

 

[Kodiak Qc]

•
I went with Profoto after comparing many catalogues first and dealers afters.
Knowing me, being the worst kind of costumer, once a decision is taken my
commitment in that direction will be a long term investment: 2400w/s 3heads
studio generator, 3x D1, 2x B1 and 2x B2 + many modifiers… a fortune!

I wanted more than anything offered but did want to pay the swiss prices so
I tabbed on the swedish system. TBH, never regretted it!

 

[mike weeks]

•
I went with Profoto after comparing many catalogues first and dealers afters.
Knowing me, being the worst kind of costumer, once a decision is taken my
commitment in that direction will be a long term investment: 2400w/s 3heads
studio generator, 3x D1, 2x B1 and 2x B2 + many modifiers… a fortune!

I wanted more than anything offered but did want to pay the swiss prices so
I tabbed on the swedish system. TBH, never regretted it!

Point is that the HS have come out since you purchased so not a decision you would have had to make and personally I do not think there is enough info out there to make this new decision yet.

Mike

 

[Kodiak Qc]

Point is that the HS have come out since you purchased so not a decision you would have had to make

•
Not quite right Mike, my B1s (a year ago )and B2s (last spring) were bought BECAUSE of their HSS capability!

 

[simonbarker]

I'm also aware that the Elinchrom HS works at full power where as the Profoto B1 systems HS system only works at low power.

It may go beyond that though as they both use different approaches, the Profoto is doing HSS while the Elinchrom is HS.

The B1 is also rather heavy a top a stand.

It is but wouldn't the Profoto B2 be the more obvious choice when compared to an ELB 400?

All in all I think I'm leaning towards buying another Elinchrom unit and a Skyport HS but if anyone had some good thoughts about the benefits of a B1, I'd love to hear them.

You could just rent the new Skyport remote and see how well it works with your existing setup, I'm assuming TFC and the Pro centre must have them by now.

 

[HoppyUK]

The Elinchrom is very new, not much user info out there yet. Why not get both, then you can tell us?!

In your position though, right now and given the cost, I'd hire first.

 

[mike weeks]

•
Not quite right Mike, my B1s (a year ago )and B2s (last spring) were bought BECAUSE of their HSS capability!

It is quite right, the Elinchrom HS is only weeks old, i.e. not available when you made your decision but now available for his and it is his decision we are trying to help with.

Mike

 

[Kodiak Qc]

It is quite right, the Elinchrom HS is only weeks old

•
Yes sorry, I got that on wrong!

 

[analoganx]

The Elinchrom is very new, not much user info out there yet. Why not get both, then you can tell us?!

I'll happily take donations!

For now I may just purchase the Skyport HS unit and see how it works with my older Quadra pack. I can wait a little while to see how people react to the Skyport HS unit and the ELB unit.

There's a good post here about the differences between the B1's and the ELB's http://blog.michaelclarkphoto.com/?p=3886 However the Skyport HS wasn't released at this time.

 

[sk66]

If one is doing true HSS (flash pulse), and you actually have need for that, then that's the one to get. Hyper-sync/Tail-sync (long duration full power) is a rather crude "work around" IMO.

 

[mike weeks]

If one is doing true HSS (flash pulse), and you actually have need for that, then that's the one to get. Hyper-sync/Tail-sync (long duration full power) is a rather crude "work around" IMO.

Except that the new HS head has been built to do this whereas most other lights it is a happy accident - they expect 1 or 2 stops more light so not crude at all.

Mike

 

[arthurbikemad]

I have the ELB400 and HS heads, plus the Skyport HS, as said it's not HSS (in the form of IGBT pulsed flash) but I can't tell any difference even at 8000/s, I'd agree that tail end sync is a crude way to deal with the focal plane shutter issue but Elinchrom seem to have done it very well, you can run HS with the Pro heads but as you may know it's optimised for the new HS heads, (defo NOT the action heads) I have been very pleased so far, a small bug in the firmware in that the HS head goes a little whack on strobe mode but that is to be resolved this week with new firmware and tbh strobe mode is not suitable for a head that's optimized for tail end sync anyway. Power wise they say around 50% (I think, read somewhere but not official?? Can't remember) down in HS mode but over my 4 600exrt's so far one head seems MUCH more power in use, I've not metered it but if I get time I will set them up and do some tests.. I'd guess it's about two or three stops more powerful i.e 1 HS head 'v' 4 600exrt's, but its more than that, quality of light, coverage and so on.

You can tweak HS with the overdrive optimization but with my 5D3 it's been spot on, not seen any reason to adjust it, a few good animations around of how the system works and how you can fine tune it.

ODS animation.

 

[sk66]

Except that the new HS head has been built to do this whereas most other lights it is a happy accident - they expect 1 or 2 stops more light so not crude at all.

Mike

Designed to do it how? Obviously built in an offset, nothing particularly special there... Anything else they could do (raise the tail, reduce/flatten the peak) would be a tradeoff. And 1-2 stops more than what? The same head w/o a timing offset?

If they do manage to get tail sync to work equally well as true HSS at all SS's, I will be surprised and impressed.

 

[mike weeks]

If they do manage to get tail sync to work equally well as true HSS at all SS's, I will be surprised and impressed.

I usually find it best to do the research before dismissing things

The 1-2 stops increase is in comparison to lights of a similar power doing HSS, the photographs I have seen do demonstrate this

Timing offset is in the trigger (many triggers can do this)

Pulse has been re-shaped to give a flatter and extended peak

Head has been designed to give a longer pulse

Tail sync does not suffer from pulsing that can occur with HSS

Mike

 

[sk66]

I usually find it best to do the research before dismissing things

I haven't seen a test/review or anything other than Elinchrom's own marketing... I'd be interested in seeing what you are referring to...

 

[arthurbikemad]

..

 

[itsdavedotnet]

I'll happily take donations!

For now I may just purchase the Skyport HS unit and see how it works with my older Quadra pack. I can wait a little while to see how people react to the Skyport HS unit and the ELB unit.

There's a good post here about the differences between the B1's and the ELB's http://blog.michaelclarkphoto.com/?p=3886 However the Skyport HS wasn't released at this time.

what a good read. I think that it may have just sold me an elinchrom rather than a B2 to go with my two B1 heads... (even though my style has quite different requirements to his)..


Also, if it's a case of getting HSS OR TTL, I'd rather have TTL pretty much any day, super flexible on the occasions that you need it - and profoto's is very, very good

 

[mike weeks]

I'll happily take donations!

For now I may just purchase the Skyport HS unit and see how it works with my older Quadra pack. I can wait a little while to see how people react to the Skyport HS unit and the ELB unit.

There's a good post here about the differences between the B1's and the ELB's http://blog.michaelclarkphoto.com/?p=3886 However the Skyport HS wasn't released at this time.

I read this some time ago and there is a mistake in the logic

For example with my Nikon D800 and D4, the normal flash sync speed is 1/250th second. With Hypersync technology, I have been able to shoot at shutter speeds up to 1/4000th second with my Elinchrom Ranger strobes and very close to that with the ELB 400. In effect, you get a smaller amount of the light illuminating your image because you are only using a slice of the full light output, but since you can use a higher shutter speed and darken the background this allows you to overpower daylight with less light output. With Hypersync, the flash is not emitting a burst of low power flashes but one big burst of light. In my experience, you get a lot more light power when using Hypersync as opposed to HSS.

The bit I have put in bold because the flash is acting as conctant light in Tail Sync and obviously ambient is also constant if we reduce the time for one, we reduce the time for the other i.e. there is a direct relationship so you need the same amount of power at ANY given shutter speed when using this process i.e. a shorter duration does not give you an increase in flash to ambient light power. I would appreciate any comments from @HoppyUK and @Garry Edwards to ensure that I have that right - I believe that certain suppliers of Elinchrom are using these words to explain why it is so good.
Mike

 

[Garry Edwards]

I read this some time ago and there is a mistake in the logic



The bit I have put in bold because the flash is acting as conctant light in Tail Sync and obviously ambient is also constant if we reduce the time for one, we reduce the time for the other i.e. there is a direct relationship so you need the same amount of power at ANY given shutter speed when using this process i.e. a shorter duration does not give you an increase in flash to ambient light power. I would appreciate any comments from @HoppyUK and @Garry Edwards to ensure that I have that right - I believe that certain suppliers of Elinchrom are using these words to explain why it is so good.
Mike

The only comment that I feel able to make is that when it comes to tail end sync generally (which may or may not apply to Elinchrom, which I haven't yet been able to test) is that when shutter speed is increased it does bring about a substantial reduction to the effect of ambient light, until the shutter speed becomes shorter than the flash duration, at which point the ambient light contribution and the flash contribution become matched, and there is no point in increasing the shutter speed any further. The point at which the ambient, flash and shutter speed coincide depends on the camera shutter and the flash duration, but tends in my experience to be around 1/2000th.

As for commenting on Elinchrom products, I don't feel that I should offer opinions on this even if I had any hard information - Elinchrom is without a doubt Lencarta's most serious competitor when it comes to affordable technology, and I don't want to either get into a bunfight or to be perceived to do so.

 

[sk66]

because the flash is acting as conctant light in Tail Sync and obviously ambient is also constant if we reduce the time for one, we reduce the time for the other i.e. there is a direct relationship so you need the same amount of power at ANY given shutter speed when using this process i.e. a shorter duration does not give you an increase in flash to ambient light power.

Yes, Tail sync is using the flash as a (somewhat) constant light source. As such SS, ISO, Ap, all affect both exposures equally.
However, SS and timing offset controls where along the flash curve the exposure occurs. A SS optimally timed so as to primarily fall on the peak will result in a more even/brighter flash exposure. A longer SS that includes the peak will have more flash falloff across the exposure (equally bright where the peak falls, but a lower ratio where it does not). And a greater timing offset so as to use a flatter part of the curve will result in a more even flash exposure at a lower flash level (power).
It's a lot like having a firework/flare as your light source...

I can only assume Gary is talking about increasing SS along with a corresponding increase is flash power.
Interestingly, the SS above x-sync becomes irrelevant in terms of falloff... That's because those SS are determined by the size of the opening between the two curtains and not by the speed at which the shutter curtains travel (which is always the same). All SS's above x-sync have the same transit time...

I'm not sure what you mean by shorter durations... With a typical strobe (non-IGBT) a higher power setting is a shorter flash duration... I don't have a lot of experience using tail sync, but I've never run across one that has perfectly even exposure/illumination; and I don't really think it's possible without a significant power penalty (i.e. discharging the cap at a lower power for a longer time thru some type of regulator, which probably could be done).

 

[HoppyUK]

I read this some time ago and there is a mistake in the logic

The bit I have put in bold because the flash is acting as conctant light in Tail Sync and obviously ambient is also constant if we reduce the time for one, we reduce the time for the other i.e. there is a direct relationship so you need the same amount of power at ANY given shutter speed when using this process i.e. a shorter duration does not give you an increase in flash to ambient light power. I would appreciate any comments from @HoppyUK and @Garry Edwards to ensure that I have that right - I believe that certain suppliers of Elinchrom are using these words to explain why it is so good.
Mike

It's not easy to explain tail-hypersync, and I think some of the words used by various posters are unclear. But I think I'm reading you right Mike, and I agree in broad principle. Steven makes some good points too. However, the relationship between shutter speed and ambient is not exactly linear, though close enough to it at faster speeds.

The are lots are other variables too, such as camera model (shutter cycle time) and timing off-set so not everyone will get the same results. Most important thing will be how flat Elinchrom has been able to make the flash output curve with the HS head. That's what it all hangs on really.

But no matter what, there will be a big reduction in brightness compared to normal x-sync simply because the focal plane shutter is effectively closed to most of the flash light, most of the time. Nothing anyone can do about that. And there will also be some darkening up the frame, as the tail of the flash fades, that's also inevitable. There are some quite easy techniques to minimise that though, that can make it invisible in practise.

 

[sk66]

However, the relationship between shutter speed and ambient is not exactly linear, though close enough to it at faster speeds.

Are you saying it isn't exactly linear for ambient but it *is* for the flash contribution? How is that possible (assuming the shutter duration is occurring in the same part of the curve)?

 

[HoppyUK]

Are you saying it isn't exactly linear for ambient but it *is* for the flash contribution? How is that possible (assuming the shutter duration is occurring in the same part of the curve)?

No, I'm not saying that. Ambient remains constant, but the shutter cycle time* varies slightly, so at 1/500 (say) it's taking light from a longer section of the flash curve than at 1/8000sec. And at faster speeds it's taking a narrower slice in line with the gap between the shutter curtains. There are measurable differences, but hard to see in practise. Certainly, once you get above maybe 1/2000sec, the flash changes are effectively linear.

*Time from first curtain start to second curtain finish varies with shutter speed. The time difference is the longer speed minus the faster speed.
For reference, an approximate rule of thumb is that each focal plane shutter curtain takes around 3ms to travel from top to bottom. Some are a bit faster, maybe 2.5ms or even a bit less. Max x-sync speed is a rough guide to that. Faster cycle time means brighter exposures with tail-hypersync, and less fall-off up the frame.

 

[sk66]

I think I follow... at SS's above ~1/2000 the gap between shutters is small enough that there is (essentially) no delay between first/second curtain starts... and therefore, above ~1/2000 the amount of falloff (tail) captured will remain (essentially) constant.

That follows with my experience... tail sync is best used at higher SS's (which correlates into a large loss of light from the strobe).

 

[HoppyUK]

I think I follow... at SS's above ~1/2000 the gap between shutters is small enough that there is (essentially) no delay between first/second curtain starts... and therefore, above ~1/2000 the amount of falloff (tail) captured will remain (essentially) constant.

That follows with my experience... tail sync is best used at higher SS's (which correlates into a large loss of light from the strobe).

Yes.

Another thing we've not touched on yet is colour changes, and flash gets more yellow as the light fades down the tail, and that makes a measurable difference with the top of the frame getting warmer as well as darker. But again, it's usually minimal in practise and a couple of workarounds make it invisible with the kind of work this method is used for.

Those workarounds include keeping the subject away from the top and bottom of the frame, effectively cutting out the extremes of fall-off to leave just the more evenly exposed middle section. The ambient light then fills in the top and bottom evenly. The other trick that works well is to use inverse square law fall-off to counteract the fading tail. Basically put the light above the subject, or turn the camera vertical and position the light on the pentaprism side, adjusting distance for even exposure.

Again though, these are the things that Elinchrom will have addressed with the (unique) HS head and I have a hunch that a custom designed head like that could work well with minimal downsides - apart from the underlying light loss that's unavoidable from the moment you go above max x-sync speed.

 

[sk66]

I can envision several ways a head might be "optimized" for tail sync... some kind of voltage regulator (probably a bad idea since most just convert excess to heat), sequencing multiple caps, a special bulb filament that takes longer to come up/down (wider/flatter curve), etc...
But I'm still pretty skeptical. I saw one claim that said you can kill the ambient with these equal to what previously required 1200ws... I'm pretty certain 1200ws and ND's will still be better for killing ambient (but not for freezing motion). And I think a 2 stop loss due to true HSS (B1) will still be better than a 3-4 stop loss due to SS (or even an equivalent 2 stop loss w/ tail). Granted, these heads are (will be?) cheaper than anything comparable that has true HSS, and that's not insignificant.