eBay Cheap Set-up - Anygood?

benwall

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Ben Wall
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Hi guys and gals

I'm in the process of setting up an online website. I've not got to the point of wanting to ensure my product photography is as good as it can be.

I have a decent DSLR at the moment which will do the job nicely in terms of taking the photos. With regards to the studio - would something like this of eBay do an adequate job? I'm not expecting miracles otherwise no one would spend thousands on studios set ups.

Anyone have advice or samples?

Many thanks
Ben
 
Never in a million years, they're total junk. Or, more diplomatically, they are made to be sold, not to be actually used. They are extremely low powered household lamps, they can produce enough light provided that the camera is on a good tripod and that long exposures aren't a problem, but the light will spill everywhere, you can't adjust the power and the colours will bve all over the place.

If you're selling online then the photos are your main sales tool. They need to give accurate information, which means that the colour rendition of the products needs to be accurate, as well as doing a good sales job.

Get yourself a studio flash kit instead.
 
I messed up the formatting, please ignore the strikethrough:)
 
Hi Garry

Thanks for the advice, your post seems to be striked through for some reason?

Would you recommend any setups? I'm preferably after a kit rather than buying seperates.

Thanks
Ben
 
if you honestly believe you can get a 'new' set of 3 lights & a 3 x background for £90 & think they could be good.. :(
 
I've bought similar stuff off eBay. Purely for home use. It's been OK but if I wanted to use it for sales, I'd be tempted to spend more.

Cheers
 
Hi Garry

Thanks for the advice, your post seems to be striked through for some reason?

Would you recommend any setups? I'm preferably after a kit rather than buying seperates.

Thanks
Ben
Yes, as I said, I messed up the formatting and ended up with strikethrough.

This Lencarta kit would do exactly what you want, you could always add to it later if extra flash heads, different softbox etc is needed but it would get you going. Other manufacturers have similar offerings.
 
a budget of £3-400 will start you off - I'd look at 2 heads (& a background) obviously 2nd hand...
Go for named brands & they will fare you better & also allow for expansion / upgrade as funds / needs require.

In no order: Elinchrom, Bowens, Lencarta, Elemental appear fairly often.
 
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& Garrys example is exactly what you might want to look at very closely..
 
Hi Garry

Thanks for the advice, your post seems to be striked through for some reason?

Would you recommend any setups? I'm preferably after a kit rather than buying seperates.

Thanks
Ben

If you knew anything about product photography at all you would have a good idea of what you need.

Sorry to be blunt, but why the hell you link that kit I have no idea whatsoever.

You seem to be under the impression that all you do is grab a bit of kit and then amazing photos appear.
 
Thanks for the tips guys. Gary that stuff looks good.

Ben

Garry works for and sells Lencarta and might be considered far too biased to even be giving advice in a forum. There are also Elinchrom and Bowens and lots of other options out there.

Especially for product photography make sure your strobes have very good colour accuracy. The cheaper end of the Lencarta range is +/- 300k, that's a lot.
 
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Garry works for and sells Lencarta and might be considered far too biased to even be giving advice in a forum. There are also Elinchrom and Bowens and lots of other options out there.

Especially for product photography make sure your strobes have very good colour accuracy. The cheaper end of the Lencarta range is +/- 300k, that's a lot.
Actually the colour temperature variation is +/- 100, that's a little:).
Bron can beat that, some others can match it, most others can't.

Yes, I'm biased in favour of Lencarta. I changed to them, from another much more expensive brand, before I became involved with the Company. I clearly state my affiliation, and have no secrets.
I give advice on lighting (because it's a subject that I know something about), not on equipment. As I clearly said,
This Lencarta kit would do exactly what you want, you could always add to it later if extra flash heads, different softbox etc is needed but it would get you going. Other manufacturers have similar offerings.
Note the final sentence in that quote. And please don't let your personal agenda spoil threads.
 
If you knew anything about product photography at all you would have a good idea of what you need.

Sorry to be blunt, but why the hell you link that kit I have no idea whatsoever.

You seem to be under the impression that all you do is grab a bit of kit and then amazing photos appear.

And if you knew anything about product photography you might have asked the op what it was he was actually photgraphing Staff edit

How about asking what the product is, will it be shown simply on the web or may it also be for a brochure, how inportant is colour accuracy etc....



Ben, if its just for the web don't get too hung up on colour accuracy, the web screws that right up and by the time your customers see you stuff on their monitor it will look completely different to when you view it on yours. I was in the same place as you and wasted a mountain of time on this one aspect of my product shots as our main speciality is bespoke glaze colours. Its good to have a knowledge of proper colour management and a well thought through workflow etc but for me, the most important aspect of product shots for the web is more about getting a bit of drama into your shots and making the product look alive on the screen. You will achieve that with clever lighting and shadow and the best way to learn that for your specific product is to simply play. Whilst I agree that what Garry sells is fantastic value and well made, I found it easier to use any old continuous lights with various reflectors and black card to suss out the look I wanted and how my product was best lit. Then once i had the basics nailed I tried flash and I can tell you what I learned with just a lightbulb and some tracing paper and mirrors ect made it a lot easier to get the hang of getting that effect with studio flash.

Thats just me and you will get lots of other advice from the very knowledgeable guys and most of the girls here but if you need to get any flash lighting ask Garry and buy the lencarta stuff, its as good as you will ever need and blows that ebay crud out of the water.

If you want to see my site PM me and I will send you a link, it's only just gone live and is still being polished but the pics are all done.

Best of luck with it mate

Steve.
 
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Actually the colour temperature variation is +/- 100, that's a little:).
Bron can beat that, some others can match it, most others can't.

Yes, I'm biased in favour of Lencarta. I changed to them, from another much more expensive brand, before I became involved with the Company. I clearly state my affiliation, and have no secrets.
I give advice on lighting (because it's a subject that I know something about), not on equipment. As I clearly said,
Note the final sentence in that quote. And please don't let your personal agenda spoil threads.

Strange that we had a conversation about +/- 300k on the phone then.
 
And if you knew anything about product photography you might have asked the op what it was he was actually photgraphing instead of being a sphincter! In fact, you sound like you could do with an enama deary.

How about asking what the product is, will it be shown simply on the web or may it also be for a brochure, how inportant is colour accuracy etc....



Ben, if its just for the web don't get too hung up on colour accuracy, the web screws that right up and by the time your customers see you stuff on their monitor it will look completely different to when you view it on yours. I was in the same place as you and wasted a mountain of time on this one aspect of my product shots as our main speciality is bespoke glaze colours. Its good to have a knowledge of proper colour management and a well thought through workflow etc but for me, the most important aspect of product shots for the web is more about getting a bit of drama into your shots and making the product look alive on the screen. You will achieve that with clever lighting and shadow and the best way to learn that for your specific product is to simply play. Whilst I agree that what Garry sells is fantastic value and well made, I found it easier to use any old continuous lights with various reflectors and black card to suss out the look I wanted and how my product was best lit. Then once i had the basics nailed I tried flash and I can tell you what I learned with just a lightbulb and some tracing paper and mirrors ect made it a lot easier to get the hang of getting that effect with studio flash.

Thats just me and you will get lots of other advice from the very knowledgeable guys and most of the girls here but if you need to get any flash lighting ask Garry and buy the lencarta stuff, its as good as you will ever need and blows that ebay crud out of the water.

If you want to see my site PM me and I will send you a link, it's only just gone live and is still being polished but the pics are all done.

Best of luck with it mate

Steve.

Entertaining reply.
 
Garry works for and sells Lencarta
I'm sure the original poster would have already realised Garry's views are biased.
The advertiser tag under his name is a giveaway.
 
To OP:-

This book is about as good as you will find for learning light in general and it tends to centre on product photography. Trust me, you will have a nightmare just playing around until you get what you want instead of just learning how.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Light-Scien...06855&sr=8-1&keywords=light+science+and+magic

You should make every effort to display product as accurately as you possibly can. Say your colour is 10% out and the viewers settings are 10% out, that's 20%, they may be surprised when they buy your product and it's not in the colour they were expecting - no need to tell you how much that's going to cost you in returns and admin. (My background includes website development for shopping cart sites, I do know a little about this.)

Here are some tips for helping to ensure accuracy in your images.

Use a monitor calibration system. Use daylight bulbs where you edit your images. Avoid glare on your screen. Use the colour passport system. Use a light meter and a grey card.

You may plan to produce a product brochure or catalogue in the future. It would be a big shame and costly in time to have to reshoot all of your products for print.
 
Garry works for and sells Lencarta and might be considered far too biased to even be giving advice in a forum.

Garry has, for quite a while, given very valuable advice to many members on this forum. I and no doubt many others are very grateful for this.

I think the OP is probably grateful for this advice and is aware of Garry's affiliation to Lencarta.
 
Not sure what prompted the vitriolic attack on Garry's posting, but it was unecessary and unhelpful.

In terms of the OP, my advice is to use your budget to pay for someone who knows what they're doing to produce quality images for what is effectively your shop window.

Nothing puts me off buying something more than a ca*p photo.. it screams 'unprofessional' and 'not bothered' at me from the page.

BTW, it's not just the temperature of the lights that affects the colour of the finished images - there's a little more to this photography lark than first meets the eye.

Once you've made some sales and learned how to take acceptable images (and therefore understand what kit you need to do it), then go and buy the Lencarta kit (ok, so the last bit was tongue in cheek).
 
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I would have thought you might have used the same advice with some of your studio portraits???

@OP I would defo go strobe w/ modelling over continuous... eBay brands such as Neewer are more than decent operation wise, just don't expect the durability to be there if you are up down setting them up at locations.. I used Neewer strobes for months carriying them about on a motorbike but I did have to replace the flimsy stands that came with the kit..

To OP:-

This book is about as good as you will find for learning light in general and it tends to centre on product photography. Trust me, you will have a nightmare just playing around until you get what you want instead of just learning how.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Light-Science-Magic-4-e-ebook/dp/B00ABKGIXW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398506855&sr=8-1&keywords=light science and magic

You should make every effort to display product as accurately as you possibly can. Say your colour is 10% out and the viewers settings are 10% out, that's 20%, they may be surprised when they buy your product and it's not in the colour they were expecting - no need to tell you how much that's going to cost you in returns and admin. (My background includes website development for shopping cart sites, I do know a little about this.)

Here are some tips for helping to ensure accuracy in your images.

Use a monitor calibration system. Use daylight bulbs where you edit your images. Avoid glare on your screen. Use the colour passport system. Use a light meter and a grey card.

You may plan to produce a product brochure or catalogue in the future. It would be a big shame and costly in time to have to reshoot all of your products for print.
 
To OP:-

This book is about as good as you will find for learning light in general and it tends to centre on product photography. Trust me, you will have a nightmare just playing around until you get what you want instead of just learning how.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Light-Science-Magic-4-e-ebook/dp/B00ABKGIXW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398506855&sr=8-1&keywords=light science and magic

You should make every effort to display product as accurately as you possibly can. Say your colour is 10% out and the viewers settings are 10% out, that's 20%, they may be surprised when they buy your product and it's not in the colour they were expecting - no need to tell you how much that's going to cost you in returns and admin. (My background includes website development for shopping cart sites, I do know a little about this.)

Here are some tips for helping to ensure accuracy in your images.

Use a monitor calibration system. Use daylight bulbs where you edit your images. Avoid glare on your screen. Use the colour passport system. Use a light meter and a grey card.

You may plan to produce a product brochure or catalogue in the future. It would be a big shame and costly in time to have to reshoot all of your products for print.


Thats better:)
 
Thats better:)

Thanks :)

Sorry, I could have made my point in a friendlier way.

My bug is that there is a common misconception which is that as long as you have expensive kit you'll get a good photo and that learning is secondary, as though the camera is going to do all the work. It is very easy to spend and spend on gear hoping to get the results you want when by learning first, deciding how you want to shoot and then aiming for that style you can buy the gear you actually need in the first place. This saves a LOT of money, time, heartache and general frustration.
 
Thanks :)
This saves a LOT of money, time, heartache and general frustration.

Yes - we all agree with that but buying the kit linked in the first post would have wasted the first 2 & caused the 2nd 2, & to be fair to Garry his 1st post highlighted exactly this.
 
And if you knew anything about product photography you might have asked the op what it was he was actually photgraphing instead of being a sphincter! In fact, you sound like you could do with an enama deary.

How about asking what the product is, will it be shown simply on the web or may it also be for a brochure, how inportant is colour accuracy etc....



Ben, if its just for the web don't get too hung up on colour accuracy, the web screws that right up and by the time your customers see you stuff on their monitor it will look completely different to when you view it on yours. I was in the same place as you and wasted a mountain of time on this one aspect of my product shots as our main speciality is bespoke glaze colours. Its good to have a knowledge of proper colour management and a well thought through workflow etc but for me, the most important aspect of product shots for the web is more about getting a bit of drama into your shots and making the product look alive on the screen. You will achieve that with clever lighting and shadow and the best way to learn that for your specific product is to simply play. Whilst I agree that what Garry sells is fantastic value and well made, I found it easier to use any old continuous lights with various reflectors and black card to suss out the look I wanted and how my product was best lit. Then once i had the basics nailed I tried flash and I can tell you what I learned with just a lightbulb and some tracing paper and mirrors ect made it a lot easier to get the hang of getting that effect with studio flash.

Thats just me and you will get lots of other advice from the very knowledgeable guys and most of the girls here but if you need to get any flash lighting ask Garry and buy the lencarta stuff, its as good as you will ever need and blows that ebay crud out of the water.

If you want to see my site PM me and I will send you a link, it's only just gone live and is still being polished but the pics are all done.

Best of luck with it mate

Steve.
I agree with most of these points.
Back in the early 90's I found myself for a short while having to make do with nothing in the way of equipment, and had to buy some second hand photoflood lamps for product shots.
Managing without the right equipment concentrates the mind, and is an invaluable teaching aid.
Up to a point, having good equipment, and too much of it, tends to steer us towards bland results, which is the opposite of the right direction, most of the time.
What lighting is really about is the creation of the right shadows in the right places, and photographers are judged on what they don't light rather than on what they do light.
And what posing and camera position is about is showing the qualities and the benefits of the subject - whether that's a beautiful woman, very good industrial design or a tin of baked beans.

Using a continuous light as a learning tool can be invaluable, but only if it's a filament bulb. Cheap LED or fluorescent lamps produce false colours, and those colours cannot be corrected.

When it comes to product photography (and other subjects, to a lesser extent) it's really all about the shape and reflective qualities of the subject. There are a lot of people around who seem to think that they know how to photograph certain subjects, such as towels, or shoes, or clothing or whatever, but generally they just don't get it, because although there are standard approaches to basic lighting arrangements it's really about what you want to show, what you want to emphasise and what you want to hide, and this means that people need to understand light from a basic physics viewpoint, and also need to understand how to present the benefits of the subject well, which requires an understanding of marketing too.

Anyone who is photographing their own products for their own business should understand the importance of the marketing aspects, and can learn about the physics of lighting, partly by studying that excellent book Light: Science & Magic (which is all about lighting in general, it just uses still life subjects for illustration, as I do). Generally, someone who is keen to learn can do much better than the average 'professional' photographer with just a bit of practice, and just about everyone can do much better than the average 'pack shot' photographers, who generally just run a production line of consistent mediocraty. There have been some outstanding examples of fast learning on this forum, the one that really jumps out and hits me is a thread on photographing flowers, the guy had absolutely no idea to start with and ended up with pretty outstanding results after just a few sessions.
Strange that we had a conversation about +/- 300k on the phone then.
No I didn't.I said that the maximum variation was 300K, that's a maximum of +/ - 150K. And I was talking to you about the previous (original) model of the SmartFlash anyway.
 
Jenny, it really seems that you have a personal issue with Garry, perhaps you would be better to air that somewhere else and let the OP actually use this thread to gain some useful information :rolleyes:
 
"No I didn't.I said that the maximum variation was 300K, that's a maximum of +/ - 150K. And I was talking to you about the previous (original) model of the SmartFlash anyway.
Garry Edwards, Today at 5:04 PM Report"

Right.

Jenny, I have no idea what your personal gripe is with Garry, but please don't air it on the forum, on someone else's thread, it is not fair to anyone, least of all the OP.

Now everyone, lets make like little trains please, back on track.
 
I think you'd be better off using the money you would spend on this paying for someone to photograph your products for you. You'll probably find that the job they do for you will sell your products faster too.
 
Jenny, I have no idea what your personal gripe is with Garry, but please don't air it on the forum, on someone else's thread, it is not fair to anyone, least of all the OP.

Now everyone, lets make like little trains please, back on track.

I have no personal gripe with anyone. I just feel a forum like this should be a place for impartial advice.
 
In fairness, Garry's advertiser tag is pretty clearly displayed. His advice & contributions to the forum are pretty useful. Same as most other advertisers
 
I've tried cheap solutions. They don't work. There is no way round it unfortunately. For decent results you need the right equipment.

Some of the cheap ebay kits will just be a disguised fire hazard. The supposedly half decent from a recognised brand lights I bought wouldn't even keep the soft box together and away from a very hot bulb. Don't bother.

I got some cheap ones with reflective and shoot through umbrellas. They're not that bright but they're better than nothing. But only just. You can only control the power by moving them so they aren't very flexible. They look very similar to that ebay kit.

If you just want very basic uncreative record shots that is one step away from using a light tent then they're fine. If you want more than that then they're a waste of money.
 
Garry works for and sells Lencarta and might be considered far too biased to even be giving advice in a forum. There are also Elinchrom and Bowens and lots of other options out there.
...
Is there really a need for this?

It's obvious Garry works for lencarta, but this ought to be enough to satisfy any critic.
?..This Lencarta kit would do exactly what you want, you could always add to it later if extra flash heads, different softbox etc is needed but it would get you going. Other manufacturers have similar offerings.
And I'm not sure if I was sat on any faulty lights from any manufacturer, that I'd be slagging off their competition, that seems a bizarre stance.:thinking:
 
I have no personal gripe with anyone. I just feel a forum like this should be a place for impartial advice.

Most people are biased or maybe better put influenced which can be because of an involvement, ownership, past experience etc. and Garry is very open i.e. nothing is hidden about his relationship with Lencarta. I will ask a simple question "would this forum be a better place without his involvement?" When you know half as much about lighting as he does maybe you could become the resident expert, me, I quite like the status quo.

Mike
 
I'd wager Garry has forgotten more about lighting than I'm able to learn. He's open about his affiliation but more importantly his advice is very helpful. The lighting forum would be a much poorer place without him and Hoppy.

To the OP, I also echo the light science magic book. Best lighting book I've read.

S
 
Going back to the original question of cheap studio lights - 3 neweer 250w strobes (with model lights) £170 (about £55 a light) - well worth it for starter studio (I have a set) doesnt cost the earth and 750w total power is plenty for portraits and I can light up a large (community centre sized) hall with 3 of them spread out. I ended up getting the yongnuo rf603c triggers, but you can probably get away with just two triggers and the other strobes on slave. So you could do it for £200.

Also, I did have a similar cheapo set up to the one you posted, though mine was £150. I dont use the continuous lights any more, one of the switches broke on one and I lost faith. I still use the stands, poles and cloths though so not a total waste though a waste nonetheless.

Hope thats useful for you :)
 
Thanks for all the feedback and comments. It's been useful - I'm going to look into outsourcing as well as the more expensive options as I have a lot on my plate at the minute with everything else that is required for starting an online store.

With regards to jenny's first post:

"If you knew anything about product photography at all you would have a good idea of what you need.

Sorry to be blunt, but why the hell you link that kit I have no idea whatsoever.

You seem to be under the impression that all you do is grab a bit of kit and then amazing photos appear."

That's a tad unfair. I never said that once I have the kit amazing photos will appear. I have never shot anything in a studio hence why I'm asking. There are loads of styles of photography, if I shot black and white street photography would this mean I can set-up and shoot models in a studio? No.

Ben
 
Thanks for all the feedback and comments. It's been useful - I'm going to look into outsourcing as well as the more expensive options as I have a lot on my plate at the minute with everything else that is required for starting an online store.

With regards to jenny's first post:



That's a tad unfair. I never said that once I have the kit amazing photos will appear. I have never shot anything in a studio hence why I'm asking. There are loads of styles of photography, if I shot black and white street photography would this mean I can set-up and shoot models in a studio? No.

Ben
Outsourcing is definitely an option to consider - but frankly the people who are capable of doing a better job than you will be able to do once you've had some practice won't be cheap.
Going back to the original question of cheap studio lights - 3 neweer 250w strobes (with model lights) £170 (about £55 a light) - well worth it for starter studio (I have a set) doesnt cost the earth and 750w total power is plenty for portraits and I can light up a large (community centre sized) hall with 3 of them spread out. I ended up getting the yongnuo rf603c triggers, but you can probably get away with just two triggers and the other strobes on slave. So you could do it for £200.

Also, I did have a similar cheapo set up to the one you posted, though mine was £150. I dont use the continuous lights any more, one of the switches broke on one and I lost faith. I still use the stands, poles and cloths though so not a total waste though a waste nonetheless.

Hope thats useful for you :)
Neewer flash heads would be a massive improvement over your original find, and some people do seem to like them - in fact I saw a post on FB today from someone who says that he's a pro photographer and he thinks they're great for pro use :( BUT they do have a massive limitation - the reflector is built in, which means that the range of different modifiers that can be fitted to them is extremely limited.
The work with barn doors, which is of no use to you. They work with umbrellas too, but they are of limited use to you. They sort of work with softboxes, but the light distribution is uneven because the reflector can't be removed, and the only softboxes that will fit them are the cheap and cheerful 'universal fit' ones that generally aren't very good. And, AFAIK, 'universal fit' softboxes are only available in fairly small sizes.

This is important because the flash itself is just the source of the light - what actually matters, apart from HOW it is used, is the modifiers that you fit to it.

There are other factors that should be considered too, but the modifier fit, or lack of it, is the main one.

Feel free to give me a ring (Lencarta phone number, office hours) if you would like to discuss.
 
Ben, what is your product, how big is it and how big is the range?

No-one can help much without the specifics mate.

Streve.
 
...important because the flash itself is just the source of the light - what actually matters, apart from HOW it is used, is the modifiers that you fit to it.

There are other factors that should be considered too, but the modifier fit, or lack of it, is the main one.

...
Like Steve said it'd help if we knew a bit more about what you're shooting. But the above is the biggest consideration regarding kit.

Really cheap kit can be useful... For some jobs.

Just like a kit zoom can give great results, or an iPhone camera (if what we ask them to do is within their remit).

But if we want to be prepared for a variety of jobs, we buy a DSLR system, and if we want to be prepared for a variety of lighting tasks, we have to consider the system.

The good news is that softboxes and other modifiers are cheaper than lenses. The great news is that most photographers never realise how important light is; so a little effort can escalate your images very quickly. Whilst all the idiots are re-buying expensive stuff because their images 'aren't sharp enough' or have 'ugly bokeh' you can spend half an hour discovering the benefit of feathering a gridded softbox.
 
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