E-TTL Questions

[Tdes]

About to buy some speed lights on a budget, I have a job on that may require flash at some point, but not for sure!!

I have a canon 77d and want to use E-TTL for speed and ease of use. I am assuming I can use E-TTL off camera without using a controller or do I have to buy a controller as well?

I was looking at Yongnuo YN568EXII but just want to be clear if it will work. I will only use them 2 -3 times a year so don't want to spend any money on them!

Cheers, T

 

[Phil V]

If you want it to be reliable, you’ll need a radio transmitter and a speedlight with a built in receiver.

Canon 600ex rt. canon S.T. E3rt transmitter
Yongnuo YN600 ex rt YN E3 transmitter
Yongnuo YN685 YN622c transmitter
Godox TT685 and XPro-c transmitter

There are other combinations, but that’s enough to research, id recommend the Godox as they’re the most comprehensive system currently available.

 

[Tdes]

If you want it to be reliable, you’ll need a radio transmitter and a speedlight with a built in receiver.

Canon 600ex rt. canon S.T. E3rt transmitter
Yongnuo YN600 ex rt YN E3 transmitter
Yongnuo YN685 YN622c transmitter
Godox TT685 and XPro-c transmitter

There are other combinations, but that’s enough to research, id recommend the Godox as they’re the most comprehensive system currently available.

Thank you for your help, it is appreciated!

If I were to use any of these on camera they would work fine without the transmitter? The transmitter is for reliable off camera E-TTL.

Also, does E-TTL work with multiple flash units (assuming they were all able and I had a transmitter?).

I have a bit of a shopping list for this job and don't want to be doing it for nothing!! I may not even have to use flash, just have to be prepared for everything, hence the E-ttl questions, it will be quick snap shooting indoors, with potentially bad lighting!

 

[Phil V]

If I were to use any of these on camera they would work fine without the transmitter? The transmitter is for reliable off camera E-TTL.

Yes

Also, does E-TTL work with multiple flash units (assuming they were all able and I had a transmitter?).

Yes, and they can also control a mix of Ettl and manual too.

But if you’re unfamiliar with flash, particularly OCF, I’d say KISS, the more complex your plan, the more can go wrong, id start with bouncing.

But I’d definitely buy a first flash with Ettl and a radio receiver, as the basis of a system that will grow with your experience and needs.

I did miss the fact that Yes you can use your 77d to trigger external flashes, but I really wouldn’t, some people will tell you it’s all you need, but personally, I find it more trouble than it’s worth.

 

[Mr Badger]

I believe your 77D has an optical wireless flash trigger system built in, so it should work with optically triggered wireless off-camera flash units, but only by direct line-of-sight (the camera's flash sender has to be in line-of-sight with the off-camera flash unit body and within range - you can swivel the flash head at the target and point the flash's body with its built-in optical receiver panel towards the camera to get better communication, or use a long lead to trigger the master flash off-camera to communicate with and trigger any slave flashes that are in line-of sight range of the master).

Radio transmitter type flash units are more expensive (for like-for-like build quality), but ultimately the way to go in terms of flexibility and function, but you'd need a compatible radio transmitter (or RT 'master' flash unit) to fit to your camera to use radio controlled flash units off camera. As a cost comparison to using radio-controlled kit, maybe weigh up the price of some low-use second hand Canon Speedlites (a 580 EXII as a master unit and one or two 430 EXII as slaves)? A lot of the pros have now switched to RT flash units, so the older optically controlled but genuine and 'designed specially for Canon EOS SLR cameras' Speedlites are now available used at fairly reasonable money to get you started. So maybe check some prices on MPB or WEX (WEX offer a 12 month warranty but may have less stock to choose from)?

So perhaps see how the price compares against buying new, high-quality, radio controlled units, and weigh up whether or not you'd usually be shooting within working range if using an optically controlled system. As I said, a good-quality RT flash system should be more flexible and reliable, but it's easy to spend lots of money on new kit! If you really are only going to be using them two or three times a year then perhaps think about how long it will take you to earn the purchase price back; but balance that against the build quality, reliability and likely longevity of 'budget' equipment and how much extra it might cost for 'pro-quality' kit, and how much a lost day's shooting might cost you if something doesn't work or drops to bits when you come to use it? I hope this is useful and best of luck making a choice that's right for you.

 

[Phil V]

As I said, a good-quality RT flash system should be more flexible and reliable, but it's easy to spend lots of money on new kit! If you really are only going to be using them two or three times a year then perhaps think about how long it will take you to earn the purchase price back; but balance that against the build quality,

A 430ex II is as much as an RT flash from Yongnuo and a 580exII is more than a radio flash and transmitter.

It’s a no brainer.

 

[Mr Badger]

A 430ex II is as much as an RT flash from Yongnuo and a 580exII is more than a radio flash and transmitter.

It’s a no brainer.

I know what you mean, but is the build quality and durability the same? Is the flash shoe plastic or metal for instance? And what's the re-sale value like if you keep it 18 months and decide to upgrade? Also, will it still work with full functionality on the next model DSLR Canon bring out - crystal ball stuff, but I'd bet you a pint of bitter that a 580EXII probably will? These are the sort of things I weigh up as well as looking at the price, spec and the performance when brand new. There again, I tend to keep my kit a while, so it's probably more relevant to me than someone else? I know anything can break and lemons are not confined to the budget end of the market, but even at 'spares or repairs' prices I bet the Canon kit will hold its money better percentage wise.

 

[Phil V]

I know what you mean, but is the build quality and durability the same? Is the flash shoe plastic or metal for instance? And what's the re-sale value like if you keep it 18 months and decide to upgrade? Also, will it still work with full functionality on the next model DSLR Canon bring out - crystal ball stuff, but I'd bet you a pint of bitter that a 580EXII probably will? These are the sort of things I weigh up as well as looking at the price, spec and the performance when brand new. There again, I tend to keep my kit a while, so it's probably more relevant to me than someone else? I know anything can break and lemons are not confined to the budget end of the market, but even at 'spares or repairs' prices I bet the Canon kit will hold its money better percentage wise.

Well...
To answer a couple, the hot shoes are all plastic, they’re supposed to be the breaking point, it’s an advantage. The best of them are firmware upgradeable, resale value suffers, but then they’re cheap and more importantly, the older Canon speedlights are now obsolete, it’s old tech that is barely capable.

Whereas if you invest in Godox, they’re part of a massive ecosystem that is just better than anything else on the market. To be fair, Profoto have almost as useful a range, but then it is hideously expensive. But no one else comes close.

 

[User.82148]

I was looking at buying a Godox flash last year, the TT 865C but ended up with the TT350F as I had acquired a Fuji XPRO1 and needed a flash. It is good flash and it works with my Canon cameras using the XPro C transmitter. However, I would like something more powerful so back to the TT 865C.

It looks like the prices have increased quite a bit over the last year? Perhaps just my memory.

Is there anything the Canon latest flashes can do that the Godox cannot?

 

[Phil V]

Is there anything the Canon latest flashes can do that the Godox cannot?

The opposite would be true, canon flashes only play nice with other canon speedlights, Godox flashes are compatible across speedlights, studio flash and portable battery units too.

 

[Mr Badger]

Well...
To answer a couple, the hot shoes are all plastic, they’re supposed to be the breaking point, it’s an advantage. The best of them are firmware upgradeable, resale value suffers, but then they’re cheap and more importantly, the older Canon speedlights are now obsolete, it’s old tech that is barely capable.

Whereas if you invest in Godox, they’re part of a massive ecosystem that is just better than anything else on the market. To be fair, Profoto have almost as useful a range, but then it is hideously expensive. But no one else comes close.

So I suppose Canon went to the expense of fitting a metal hot shoe just for fun then? I seem to recall that this was allegedly due to feedback from pro users expressing their disapproval about the plastic ones fitted to the previous model?

Considering your statement that "the older Canon speedlights are now obsolete, it’s old tech that is barely capable", I seem to recall Syl Arena managed to get some perfectly acceptable results from them in that book you keep recommending to people. Yes, I know, RT is often more convenient and functional than optical.... providing the flash unit it's contained within is also as consistently reliable, and remains so during the course of a acceptably long working life.

Investing on Godox? We weren't talking about that brand in post #6 & #7 though, were we?

Life experience has taught me that I can't get 'Rolls Royce build-quality for Mini money'. I really wish that wasn't true, but more often than not I've been underwhelmed by cheap/budget kit that's left me quietly wishing I'd gone for build-quality over quantity. OK, so I've got some old tech flash kit in my camera bag, but I have that reassuring feeling of confidence that when I take that kit out and put it on my camera it's going to work (within the limits of its design - which I have explored and understand), and not break unless I mistreat it or drop it from a reasonable height, and it's going to deliver consistently good-looking results.

As I said, we all have different requirements and expectations, hence me adding my comment to the thread as a possible alternative take for consideration. Anyway, I hope Tony chooses the right kit for his requirements and wish him the best of luck with his choice.

 

[Phil V]

I seem to recall Syl Arena managed to get some perfectly acceptable results from them in that book you keep recommending to people.

Of course, when it was all we had, it’s what we used (just like manual focus cameras, Walkmans and push bikes without gears), but now we have a choice, and given that choice, if someone needs reliable OCF, then radio is the obvious answer. And if someone is taking their first faltering steps with OCF, the Godox is a good bet because it offers things no one else does.

Are the speedlights as well built as a Canon? No, but for the same price as a Canon 600 ex-rt an AD200 is just as well built and has twice the power, and you can add a TT685 and transmitter too.

 

[Mr Badger]

You can't put an AD 200 on top of a camera like a 600EX II RT Speedlite though, can you? So it's not really directly comparable. Having said that, the 600EX isn't cheap and unless I used one professionally on a regular basis I'd be looking at alternatives if I couldn't efficiently survive without RT for the type of photography I did and RT would pay for itself in terms of ease of use, functionality and saved time. Whether that was via the use of previous model Canon Speedlites and separate RT units would depend on whether or not I could find a similarly well-built but cheaper alternative 'Speedlite' type flash with built in RT.

 

[HoppyUK]

Each to their own and all that, but I have owned and used a lot of Canon guns including the 600EX-RT extensively, used Godox extensively, and currently use 4x Yongnuo 600EX-RT (purchased before Godox was available). Oh, and Phottix, too. All I would say is, Godox is head and shoulders the 'best buy' for most folks (get the lithium battery version). They're also available as Pixapro branded (identical units) from Essential Photo

Edit: if budget is tight, Yongnuo has always worked faultlessly for me. Exceptional value if you don't want to progress beyond speedlights.

 

[Mr Badger]

Each to their own and all that, but I have owned and used a lot of Canon guns including the 600EX-RT extensively, used Godox extensively, and currently use 4x Yongnuo 600EX-RT (purchased before Godox was available). Oh, and Phottix, too. All I would say is, Godox is head and shoulders the 'best buy' for most folks (get the lithium battery version). They're also available as Pixapro branded (identical units) from Essential Photo

Edit: if budget is tight, Yongnuo has always worked faultlessly for me. Exceptional value if you don't want to progress beyond speedlights.

I think that's probably the way to go if the OP needs RT operated wireless, but if he'll be using flash in line of sight with each other and there won't be lots of people getting in the way between the flash units (which is what most wedding and event photographers will be up against) then optical wireless should work OK, plus he'd be able to use his current camera as a trigger if needs be. This was why I chipped in with my suggestion for consideration.

I also only use multiple flash off camera two or three times a year, mainly in reasonably uncluttered indoor environments and use a 580EX II and a 430EX II, which have worked fine for what I've needed so far. I find both these work very nicely on camera with a diffuser too, being fully controllable via the camera's menu screen, so I think the option is worth considering given the build-quality and the price they can be found for in Ex+ (or better) condition these days? If the OP needs RT then I think what you and Phil have suggested should be very useful to him.

Incidentally, I watched a video about Martin Parr doing a shoot for the Farah clothing brand earlier this year, and he appeared to be using a 580EX II (with diffuser) on a 5D MkIV, which made me feel a bit more content with what's in my camera bag. My digital photography is going more down the documentary route than the art route these days, and if the 580EX II is still good enough for Mr Parr then I think it should be more than adequate for me! As I said, you can spend a lot of money on camera kit, and now I try not to unless it makes good financial and practical sense.

 

[Tdes]

Cheers, learning a lot here.

I am going to buy Yongnuo YN685 YN622c transmitter set, talked myself up to 2 units and a trigger. I may not even use them, just have to be prepared (hence opting for the budget option).

From my understanding, this event is indoors (so lighting unknown) in a public venue. It is an international competition so no flashes to be used while heats/comps are running. Flashes may be needed for individual winners/group shots after. There will be other photographers there so there may be other flashes going off as well, especially during the handing out of medals.

Unfortunately it is abroad, so can't have loads of kit sitting in the car just incase!

Thank you again, it has been helpful.

T

 

[HoppyUK]

Be aware that if other photographers are using flash nearby, they can also trigger your flash accidentally and vice versa. They have to be using the same brand on the same channel so unlikely but just change channel.

It's quite a common problem when a bunch of professionals are shooting side by side often using the exact same gear, outside Number 10 etc, but they usually know eachother and compare notes beforehand. It's even possible for someone else's flash to appear in your images but extremely rare.

 

[Tdes]

Be aware that if other photographers are using flash nearby, they can also trigger your flash accidentally and vice versa. They have to be using the same brand on the same channel so unlikely but just change channel.

It's quite a common problem when a bunch of professionals are shooting side by side often using the exact same gear, outside Number 10 etc, but they usually know eachother and compare notes beforehand. It's even possible for someone else's flash to appear in your images but extremely rare.

Cheers for the heads up, saved me a load of time swearing at flash units!!

 

[TG.]

If you choose Godox bear in mind that the TT685 doesn't have a built in receiver and takes AA batteries, better to go for the V860II which has the built in receiver and a lithium battery, it's around £50 more though.

 

[PhilH04]

If you choose Godox bear in mind that the TT685 doesn't have a built in receiver

The TT685 does have a built in receiver and transmitter !!!

 

[User.82148]

If you choose Godox bear in mind that the TT685 doesn't have a built in receiver and takes AA batteries, better to go for the V860II which has the built in receiver and a lithium battery, it's around £50 more though.

Really, I thought it had a built in receiver?

 

[Phil V]

Cheers for the heads up, saved me a load of time swearing at flash units!!

If you choose Godox bear in mind that the TT685 doesn't have a built in receiver and takes AA batteries, better to go for the V860II which has the built in receiver and a lithium battery, it's around £50 more though.

Then mine must be faulty, it appears to have a receiver and transmitter.

The only difference is the lithium battery in the Ving flashes

 

[TG.]

Then mine must be faulty, it appears to have a receiver and transmitter.

The only difference is the lithium battery in the Ving flashes

Yes sorry I was thinking of the V850, l have the V860 II and that has the receiver and the lithium battery, the battery is great seems to last forever, I love the fact of not faffing around with AAs anymore. @PhilV a built in receiver being a fault, lol