DPA, Photography and reasonable force.

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xolotl

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I don't particularly want to divulge the details that lead to this particular letter but can anyone confirm that this is complete tosh.

Here is an excerpt I recently received from an organisation while trying to justify the actions of their staff

'It is my understanding of the law relating to Data Protection that if a person does not consent to being photographed then the photograph should be deleted. The issue is how this id done. Reasonable force may be used - but not unreasonable force'

To my knowledge this is complete rubbish as the dpa contains no provision for the use of any force and even if it did, it would not apply to me as I am merely an individual.
 
It would be classed as destruction of property to delete the image so as far as I am aware, it is not right that a person can request this under data protection. They can of course request to see any photo though - not sure where this would apply on private land, not owned by the person however??
 
No. The data protection act refers to Personally identifiable data. Someones face/body isn't data, so it's not actually covered under the DPA as far as my understanding is anyway. As you say, the DPA also has no provision for force, reasonable or otherwise.

I'd write back to them and ask them to clarify the section of the Data Protection Act that deals with what they are asserting.

Then when they either don't reply or reply with BS saying it's not their responsibility to provide such information, I'd tell them to insert their letter where the sun doesn't shine :D
 
Sounds garbage to me, and the person writing hasn't a clue there is quite clear information in the Photographers Rights Guide.

I'm no lawyer but I'd suspect that any force used would probably constitute assualt. Infact I'm pretty sure that even a landowner (or their representative e.g. security) can't even use force to remove you from their land if you trespass (i.e. if you take photos on private property without permission), again any force against you will constitute assualt.

It would be nice to find out what the organisation is - fore warned is fore armed.
 
The clue is in the first few words, "It is my understanding.....", in other words, (s)he doesn't have a clue and hasn't bothered to check with the Data Protection Registrar or a Solicitor, so is making it up, probably to justify something that has happened (which presumably it has, hence the letter and this post).

Also, The Home Secretary(?) said in the House Of Commons something to the effect that togs - amateur and pro - have the right to freely photograph people in public places.
 
I think if someone poses a threat of violence towards you then you can detain them with reasonable force until the police arrive but then what is reasonable force? These days there doesn't seem to be any consistency with the law.

Not sure why but this thread has reminded me of a sketch with Robin Williams who was talking about the different police forces....

California: "Stop or I'll shoot!"
New York: "[Bang], stop or I'll shoot!"
London: "Stop.....or I'll say stop again! Please stop? Oh please stop?!!!" hehe

Sorry, side tracked there :$
 
Under the data protection act you are not allowed to show the alleged image to anyone who allegedly wants it deleting, as it may allegedely cause the photographer to charge £50 fee for the disclosure of the image to which the taking and deleting is required.

.:cuckoo: and thats after my happy pills

life is too short

Regards Mark.
 
Nobody can force you to delete any photos. Nobody. Not even a police officer. By deleting a photo you are destroying evidence. A police officer cannot force you to destroy evidence. Evidence you ask? What if you delete your photo(s) and then accusations are made? (Disregarding recovery software).

Anybody can be photographed in a public place. Photographers need to get up to speed on the law as this sort of thing is happening more and more, and there is an endless number of people out there who are confidently spouting nothing but crap.
 
STAND UP AND BE ASSERTIVE.
They are spouting utter rubbish. You have the perfect right to photograph anyone and anything from public space. On private land there is a difference (and many indutrial estates, or shopping centres for instance are privately owned land where the public is allowed access....it is NOT public space, but private land and the owners CAN and may refuse to grant the right to photograph.)

Under no circumstances delete any images. One trick is to learn where the hide image buttons are on your camera. You can then say to whoever, on the scene, OK, OK, I'll delete them. You put them in the hidden folder and they disappear.....as far as they are concerned you have deleted them! It saves arguements and you can get on with photographing with less hassle.

You shouldn't have to, but sometimes getting around the situation is easier than fighting it.

Go on, give us a bit more gen on the situation - we will only try to help.
 
Even if you do get your images deleted by an overzealous twunt of an "official", RescuePro (or other data recovery software) should be able to resurrect the images - even after a format (on both my Nikons, anyway!).
 
They are spouting crap.

The DPA doesn't mention reasonable force at all. I haven't checked, but I'll bet my last cream cake it doesn't!
Besides the fact that the DPA gives a getout for personal affairs (eg a hobby), then that would make anything like this null and void, whether they give their consent or not.
 
report them to the registrar.

If they did or threatened to use force then report them to the police.
 
Marcel said:
Besides the fact that the DPA gives a getout for personal affairs (eg a hobby),
Click to expand...

Very good point. If it didn't, then everyone who sells stuff in the For Sale forum, or sells on eBay, would need to register under the DPA as they hold personally identifiable data on their buyers.
 
It is worry to have these thinsg come in (not that I ever have) but I would personally write them a snotty letter asking them for evidence as to where its says and start making them spend their cash chasing wild geese :)
 
:lol: ...Like that one ^^

Complete tosh yes... I think its only the police that can use reasonable force legaly ...no one else, not under any circumstances! (well nearly)

Tell them not to communicate such rubbish with you again, otherwise you might deem it to be threatening or worse, as them harassing you. :D;)
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
:lol: ...Like that one ^^

Complete tosh yes... I think its only the police that can use reasonable force legaly ...no one else, not under any circumstances! (well nearly)

Tell them not to communicate such rubbish with you again, otherwise you might deem it to be threatening or worse, as them harassing you. :D;)
Click to expand...

What part of my post that says "Nobody can force you to delete any photos. Nobody. Not even a police officer. By deleting a photo you are destroying evidence. A police officer cannot force you to destroy evidence" states that a police officer can use "reasonable force legally" to delete your photos? Like I said in the same post, photographers need to get to grips with the law, and not just popular opinion. :bang:
 
MisterE said:
What part of my post that says "Nobody can force you to delete any photos. Nobody. Not even a police officer. By deleting a photo you are destroying evidence. A police officer cannot force you to destroy evidence" states that a police officer can use "reasonable force legally" to delete your photos? Like I said in the same post, photographers need to get to grips with the law, and not just popular opinion. :bang:
Click to expand...

What part of my post mentions you?

What part of my post mentions deleting photos?

what are you getting so upset about its just my opinion?



:) :thumbs:
 
Agree with most of the above that no-one can force you to delete a picture and the contents of that letter are twaddle, penned most likely by a clueless person.

The reason there's no definitive definition ahem.. of 'reasonable force' in other situations is because what's reasonable varies with the situation. You could reasonably be expected to use more force detaining someone who's attacking you with an axe than someone who says "it's a fair cop guv" and stands quietly.
 
Resonable force as in self defence, or a citizens arrest.. NOT just to see your pics.. sod that!!
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
What part of my post mentions you?

What part of my post mentions deleting photos?

what are you getting so upset about its just my opinion?

:) :thumbs:
Click to expand...

You didn't mention me specifically in your post but just a few posts previously I had already stated a fact - a point of law - that a police officer does not have the power to force you to delete photos. Then you wrote "I think its only the police that can use reasonable force legaly ...no one else". You may not have specifically included text referring to deleting photos, but that's what this thread is all about isn't it? So what act were you inferring to that only the police could exercise their reasonable force against if not to make you delete photos?

If you are referring to "only the police having the power to use reasonable force legally" in general then you are wrong there. All manner of bodies have these powers - from the power companies being able to force their way in to your home (with a court order), bailiffs being allowed to force their way in to your home and take goods (after the first invitation inside but soon to be amended to no first invitation required) and physically restraining you if necessary. Security guards can forcibly eject you from private property including a shopping mall. And the Customs and Revenue men, unlike the police, don't even need a warrant to enter your property and sieze anything they like.

I have not stated an opinion, or an "I think....". I have stated the law. You may have read countless times and will continue to do so that So And So deleted his photos because a police officer or jobsworth told him to. Strange as it may seem, not all police officers know the law. Until we, as photographers, get our act together and collectively know the law - not an opinion - then we will continue to be subjected to unlawful harrassment and bow down to the will of these tyrants.

I'm not getting 'upset'. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. But let's not confuse opinion with fact. I'm continuing to make people aware that there is a perfectly clear law on this matter and everybody should know their rights. There's also a perfectly clear law on TV licencing, but there is an astounding amount of misinformation discussed on internet forums and newsgroups, some of even generated by the licencing authority themselves. Don't get me started on this one.
 
Well what you've done there is add your strong and emotional and possibly accurate thoughts into my post, without actually reading my post as a response to the OP, as it was intended.

You have stated the law and I have not contradicted you... and also, no this thread is not specifically about deleting photos... so you've injected that point as well.

BTW, I'm sure you'll also find that the big companies bailiffs, security guards and alike cannot in fact use force easily at all ....and do in fact need to bring the police with them to act upon those necessary court orders especially if they feel they may have to use 'reasonable force'....which is probably most times eh. Your quite right about the tax man etc, I agree.

I also agree with you about misinformation though, loads of it about and yes its all to easy to get the wrong end of the stick, which is why this forum is so useful over the years, along with photography its been especially good for clarifying the details of the law in the areas like this, many other threads have covered similar issues and the appropriate interpretation of the laws.

So saying all that, I can see nowt wrong with my original statement in terms of factual accuracy, you just got hold of the wrong end of my stick.

Easily for that to happen on a forum. :thumbs:
 
xolotl said:
I don't particularly want to divulge the details that lead to this particular letter but can anyone confirm that this is complete tosh.

Here is an excerpt I recently received from an organisation while trying to justify the actions of their staff

'It is my understanding of the law relating to Data Protection that if a person does not consent to being photographed then the photograph should be deleted. The issue is how this id done. Reasonable force may be used - but not unreasonable force'

To my knowledge this is complete rubbish as the dpa contains no provision for the use of any force and even if it did, it would not apply to me as I am merely an individual.
Click to expand...

sorry mate just read the link given by simontalm above and resonable force IS in there check it out:bang:
 
dinorock said:
sorry mate just read the link given by simontalm above and resonable force IS in there check it out:bang:
Click to expand...

While it may be in there it doesn't relate to photography at all. It's only for other reasons that it can be used. To my knowledge there certainly isn't any provision for it under the DPA.

Thanks for the advice all. It's still on going this but I'll let you know if they decide to come out with anymore outlandish statements.
 
>So saying all that, I can see nowt wrong with my original statement in terms of factual accuracy, >you just got hold of the wrong end of my stick.

>Easily for that to happen on a forum. :thumbs:[/QUOTE]

I think we'll take our sticks and draw a line under this. Take care, trust no one, and deny everything.
 
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