Dog breeder legal advice

[scottduffy]

Guys my sister recently had to begin legal action against a dog breeder and I'm looking for some info that might help from anyone who is knowledgeable in these matters.

History of this is as follows:

My sister and her hubby contacted a dog breeder two and a bit years ago after they researched a particular breed and saw an advert for a puppy for sale. They chose this breeder as they were very well known in the breed. They travelled down south and paid £2000 for the pick of the litter female and as the pup was 8 weeks old they brought her home.

They took her to the vets the next day and the vet said she seemed fine but there was an issue with her teeth which might affect her in the show ring. This was reported via email and the breeder said the teeth were perfect and it wasn't uncommon for vets not to know the breed specific or standard so my sister took her word for it.

When the dog was 9 months old her patella needed operated on. This was done and paid for by my sister as the dog was not insured due to them deciding that they would rather pay in the event of something happening rather than give the insurance company money that they didn't have to.

About six months later the other patella needed surgery which was again paid for and both ops cost roughly £1500. When this was reported to the breeder she said it was probably due to the dogs upbringing which really hit a nerve as the dog had been brought on in accordance with her fact and information sheet stating she should not be allowed to romp off lead as a pup and should enjoy short walks on the lead.

When the breeder was asked to provide the dams patella scores she said she couldn't lay her hands on them and would look for them.

Throughout this episode my sister looked out her own paperwork and when she showed me it I pointed out her dog was not carrying the breeders kennel affix in her pedigree. When questioned about this the breeder admitted she didn't breed the dog at all but provided the stud for the mating and took the puppy as payment. This infuriated my sister who contacted the kennel club and was told that her dog was bred by someone else who has no connection to the kennel so obviously the puppy couldn't carry the affix. My sister started legal action and the sheriff has ordered both parties to court in May. The breeders representatives are insisting the dog is one of hers as the whole pedigree is from her family of dogs even though it doesn't carry the affix but our argument is that she is out of pocket for a dog that she bought to show but cannot due to huge scarring on both hind legs. Cannot breed as the vet obviously advised against it due to patella scores and finally she would never have purchased in the first place had she known it wasn't bred by the breeder she sought out and doesn't carry the kennel affix she thought she was paying for.

The breeder has now got the dam tested due to the court action and claims she's 0-0 which is is perfect.

Question is whether the breeders actions are enough to make this case?

Sorry for the longest post I've ever had to post here. My sister is taking legal advice obviously but I'm just curious if anyone on here has knowledge of the legal system and what they think. I won't mention the breeder by name as there's no need and it would open me up to libel I've been told.

Regards

Scott

 

[boyfalldown]

I think you're on shaky ground. The breeders I use say they make no promises as to the suitability of their pups for showing (or working but I don't know if that holds in this case). I also think from a legal standpoint the breeder could legitimately argue that

1) They have no control over the pup after its left them And joints maybe damaged during growth by over exercise etc...
2) Dogs are animals, and as such things like this do happen.

I think its your sister's responsibility to make sure she's happy with all aspects of the pup, including knee scores before taking the pup.


I don't think the breeders actions make any case against her have even a remote chance of success. The affix to the KC name has no bearing in this case.

 

[scottduffy]

I think you're on shaky ground. The breeders I use say they make no promises as to the suitability of their pups for showing (or working but I don't know if that holds in this case). I also think from a legal standpoint the breeder could legitimately argue that

1) They have no control over the pup after its left them And joints maybe damaged during growth by over exercise etc...
2) Dogs are animals, and as such things like this do happen.

I think its your sister's responsibility to make sure she's happy with all aspects of the pup, including knee scores before taking the pup.


I don't think the breeders actions make any case against her have even a remote chance of success. The affix to the KC name has no bearing in this case.

Can I ask why the affix wouldn't be an issue? I have an advert that the breeder placed which my sister replied to stating the pups are 1500 and a fair bit more for a top quality show dog. This is word for word. This is clearly not what she's been provided with.

If someone claims her kennel name is famous throughout the world then surely that name being on your dogs official name increases it's value or in this case decreases it.

I'm not questioning your knowledge just trying to get answers to specific questions.

 

[boyfalldown]

If someone claims her kennel name is famous throughout the world then surely that name being on your dogs official name increases it's value or in this case decreases it.

The dog's KC registration will cover parentage. Its that registrerstraion that adds the value. Not the affix itself. (does that make sense?)

I have an advert that the breeder placed which my sister replied to stating the pups are 1500 and a fair bit more for a top quality show dog. This is word for word. This is clearly not what she's been provided with.

Thats a bit odd. She couldn't reasonably (& it cant really be expected) know how any puppy will mature. All she can really promise is who the parents are.

my contract says (not unreasonably)

The seller agrees that in the case of dogs sold for prospective show or breeding homes that at the time of sale the dog was free from any visible defect likely to be detrimental to this, however as no one can predict exactly how any given dog will mature the seller cannot guarantee that the dog will mature as suitable for the desired use and will not offer any form of refund or replacement should the dog mature to be unsuitable.

I'm not questioning your knowledge just trying to get answers to specific questions.

Never took it as that

 

[scottduffy]

The dog's KC registration will cover parentage. Its that registrerstraion that adds the value. Not the affix itself. (does that make sense?)



Thats a bit odd. She couldn't reasonably (& it cant really be expected) know how any puppy will mature. All she can really promise is who the parents are.

my contract says (not unreasonably)





Never took it as that

Thanks again mate. All good info. My reasoning that the affix added value was simply that if she advertised a litter (my sister I mean) and prospective buyers looked at the parentage if her dog was called say affix something it would be instantly recognisable and they might stop and look at it rather than its own name which doesn't include any affix. Not sure that makes sense but it does in my head. Haha

When my sister was looking for a litter because the dog was meant to be shown and a future cornerstone of a breeding program she was looking for a particular affix or at least a kennel name she knew were successful at shows. She would no doubt have flicked past an advert for a litter from a dog who's name wasn't synonymous with showing.

The advert she placed is below. Well an excerpt from it as I don't want to out her.

"the UK’s Top Boston Terrier Breeder’s have some beautiful pet puppies available from £1500 and obviously a bit more for a top quality show dog"

 

[sphexx]

I agree with what @boyfalldown has written above. The affix is really completely irrelevant, it’s the breeding that people would look at if buying. Your sister may have a case but don’t base it on the lack of an affix unless the breeder represented the puppy as having that affix in which case I guess you could argue deception.

 

[Nod]

As always with specialist areas of the law (especially where laws might vary according to the nation where the plaintiffs reside), consult a specialist lawyer in the area.

 

[Gremlin]

It's common practice for breeders to accept a pup in lieu of stud fess, often these can have an affix of @(another Kennel name) after the original affix.

Alarm bells would have rung for me when your sister contacted a breeder and they had an 8 week old puppy ready for immediate collection and
allowed her to take it away immediately !

Breeders can't guarantee the quality of a pup for show at 8 weeks, they develop so differently, I've known breeders keep what they thought
was the best only for it to turn out not to conform to what they needed for show and see another pup in a pet home turn out to be stunning.

You could try talking to Trevor Cooper at Dog Law a specialist in dogs and the law, but it wouldn't be cheap , they do offer a 20 minute phone consultation for £30

 

[sphexx]

It's common practice for breeders to accept a pup in lieu of stud fess, often these can have an affix of @(another Kennel name) after the original affix.

Alarm bells would have rung for me when your sister contacted a breeder and they had an 8 week old puppy ready for immediate collection and
allowed her to take it away immediately !

Breeders can't guarantee the quality of a pup for show at 8 weeks, they develop so differently, I've known breeders keep what they thought
was the best only for it to turn out not to conform to what they needed for show and see another pup in a pet home turn out to be stunning.

You could try talking to Trevor Cooper at Dog Law a specialist in dogs and the law, but it wouldn't be cheap , they do offer a 20 minute phone consultation for £30

Dog Law says they are experts in England and Wales but I think the OP is in Scotland.

 

[sphexx]

It's common practice for breeders to accept a pup in lieu of stud fess, often these can have an affix of @(another Kennel name) after the original affix.

Alarm bells would have rung for me when your sister contacted a breeder and they had an 8 week old puppy ready for immediate collection and
allowed her to take it away immediately !

Breeders can't guarantee the quality of a pup for show at 8 weeks, they develop so differently, I've known breeders keep what they thought
was the best only for it to turn out not to conform to what they needed for show and see another pup in a pet home turn out to be stunning.

You could try talking to Trevor Cooper at Dog Law a specialist in dogs and the law, but it wouldn't be cheap , they do offer a 20 minute phone consultation for £30

Dog Law says they are experts in England and Wales but I think the OP is in Scotland.

 

[sphexx]

It's common practice for breeders to accept a pup in lieu of stud fess, often these can have an affix of @(another Kennel name) after the original affix.

Alarm bells would have rung for me when your sister contacted a breeder and they had an 8 week old puppy ready for immediate collection and
allowed her to take it away immediately !

Breeders can't guarantee the quality of a pup for show at 8 weeks, they develop so differently, I've known breeders keep what they thought
was the best only for it to turn out not to conform to what they needed for show and see another pup in a pet home turn out to be stunning.

You could try talking to Trevor Cooper at Dog Law a specialist in dogs and the law, but it wouldn't be cheap , they do offer a 20 minute phone consultation for £30

Dog Law says they are experts in England and Wales but I think the OP is in Scotland. Though the rules about breeds and affixes etc will still be those of The Kennel Club in London.

 

[Gremlin]

Dog Law says they are experts in England and Wales but I think the OP is in Scotland. Though the rules about breeds and affixes etc will still be those of The Kennel Club in London.

Still worth asking though, they know a lot more about dog laws then I do

 

[sphexx]

Still worth asking though, they know a lot more about dog laws then I do

More than me too. I’ve had two brushes with the KC and it’s won one lost one so I may not be the best guide.

 

[scottduffy]

Thanks guys. The kennel club lady my sister spoke to already told her to contact Dog Law so I'm pretty sure she's did this or is about to. I've not spoken to her for a week or so.

Not sure if any of you guys are breeders but the breeders representative has now claimed that the dog has no reason not to be bred from because they say her patella scores of 2/3 are not a big deal if she's mated to a stud with excellent scores. Our vet has already stated that she should not be bred from.

Obviously we have no knowledge of breeding but do you guys have an opinion on the above?

 

[MatBin]

Alarm bells would have rung for me when your sister contacted a breeder and they had an 8 week old puppy ready for immediate collection and
allowed her to take it away immediately !

Presumably if they had accepted the puppy in payment of stud fees it would have been taken away from it's Mum/Siblings prior to 8 weeks, is that common practice for dogs? My kitten couldnt be taken away before 12 weeks to ensure she was fit/healthy/innoculated etc as it happens we took her at 14 weeks (we were on holiday when the 12 week limit was reached) and she turned out to be not terribly well socialised as she hadnt spent enough time with humans!!! Seems you cant win sometimes.
It's not unusual for moggies to be taken at a younger age but pedigrees stay longer with the breeder (usually).
Matt

 

[boyfalldown]

Presumably if they had accepted the puppy in payment of stud fees it would have been taken away from it's Mum/Siblings prior to 8 weeks, is that common practice for dogs?

Thats not common practice. A puppy needs to stay with Mum until its about 8 weeks (I've known a few days earlier but thats unusual & very much on a litter by litter basis). Even for pick of the litter in lieu of stud fees 8 weeks is normal. Much over 8 weeks and you can see either bullying or submissive behaviour in pups so 12 is unusual

 

[boyfalldown]

Not sure if any of you guys are breeders but the breeders representative has now claimed that the dog has no reason not to be bred from because they say her patella scores of 2/3 are not a big deal if she's mated to a stud with excellent scores. Our vet has already stated that she should not be bred from.

Obviously we have no knowledge of breeding but do you guys have an opinion on the above?

If a vet is saying don't breed then I would take that regardless of stud dog. Question time, or to ask your sister. Did the breeder put any restrictions on the pup? Most breeders I know put a restriction on their dogs that their puppies cannot be registered with the kennel club. They'll happily lift this restriction if certain conditions are met. They do this to prevent irresponsible breeding. (not saying for a moment your sister is doing this, but and a little surprised the breeder is suggesting using she could still be bred from)

 

[TCR4x4]

I wouldnt always take one vets advice as gospel, at least get a second opinion.
Our vet has often said things we know to be wrong or untrue about our dog, he is a very rare breed and I can pretty much guarantee the vet hasn’t seen another, so how can he possibly know everything there is to know about it.

He point blank refused to believe us when we said he’d never had flees. We’ve had him for 10 years, he gets groomed several times a week and we’ve never seen a single flea on him or in the house.Plus the breed is known for being highly resistant to them.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

A photo forum would be the last place I’d go to for legal advice.

 

[Mr Bump]

I have to say I know nothing about dogs etc but just a skim through kind of makes me squirm as if the dog has been purchased as a future award winning product.

Said product has developed some unforeseeable faults and is now probably not going to recoup the costs invested in the product.

This is a big issue with dogs and people nowadays, everyone wants a perfect pedigree and award winner etc.
to much research is done via the internet.

it's just a dog at the end of the day and wants to fetch stick and lick its balls.,

 

[boyfalldown]

the pick of the litter female

at the end of the day and wants to fetch stick and lick its balls.,

unlikely I would have thought.

 

[Mr Bump]

unlikely I would have thought.

you know what I mean though

 

[boyfalldown]

you know what I mean though

I know what you were getting at.....


shows this is right though

I have to say I know nothing about dogs

 

[Gremlin]

This is a big issue with dogs and people nowadays, everyone wants a perfect pedigree and award winner etc.
to much research is done via the internet.

Not everyone, there's a big market in crossbreeds/mongrels , ooops sorry I mean those wonderful designer crosses with made up names that people
seem willing to pay a small fortune for

 

[mark4183]

Should always do your own research into the breed and breeder, sounds like they rushed a little. We chose our puppy on the 2nd visit and after asking loads of questions and checking everything and then collected on the 3rd visit at 8 weeks

 

[sphexx]

If a vet is saying don't breed then I would take that regardless of stud dog. Question time, or to ask your sister. Did the breeder put any restrictions on the pup? Most breeders I know put a restriction on their dogs that their puppies cannot be registered with the kennel club. They'll happily lift this restriction if certain conditions are met. They do this to prevent irresponsible breeding. (not saying for a moment your sister is doing this, but and a little surprised the breeder is suggesting using she could still be bred from)

I’ve never had fleas on any dogs except on one occasion when it had just visited a house with several cats. Generally cats get fleas dogs don’t ( to criticising cats here before anyone gets the wrong impression). Ticks, yes, mites, yes but fleas no. Remember that vets are flogging expensive medication to make ends meet.

 

[sphexx]

I don’t think it’s right to breed from animals that have had surgery to correct defects unless possibly you are ruthless enough to cull any suspect offspring.

 

[scottduffy]

If a vet is saying don't breed then I would take that regardless of stud dog. Question time, or to ask your sister. Did the breeder put any restrictions on the pup? Most breeders I know put a restriction on their dogs that their puppies cannot be registered with the kennel club. They'll happily lift this restriction if certain conditions are met. They do this to prevent irresponsible breeding. (not saying for a moment your sister is doing this, but and a little surprised the breeder is suggesting using she could still be bred from)

There's no restrictions on the puppy as she was sold as a future show/breeding dog. My sister has no intention of breeding from the dog by the way. She has been to hell and back watching this poor dog in a cage for weeks twice now in pain due to these operations and has no intention of putting others through the same thing. I was just looking for opinions on the breeders stance.

 

[scottduffy]

A photo forum would be the last place I’d go to for legal advice.

More like general advice. There could be a hundred lawyers on here for all I know.

 

[scottduffy]

Should always do your own research into the breed and breeder, sounds like they rushed a little. We chose our puppy on the 2nd visit and after asking loads of questions and checking everything and then collected on the 3rd visit at 8 weeks

Actually they didn't rush it at all. This person is The or at least one of the top three breeders in the UK and this is why they're angry at the way this has played out. They never thought for a minute they were getting anything other than a top quality dog and paid a premium for it. They put in plenty of research and it led to this breeder. Just didn't expect them to sell a dog they never bred without mentioning the fact. They never got a stellar reputation by doing this I imagine.

 

[sphexx]

Actually they didn't rush it at all. This person is The or at least one of the top three breeders in the UK and this is why they're angry at the way this has played out. They never thought for a minute they were getting anything other than a top quality dog and paid a premium for it. They put in plenty of research and it led to this breeder. Just didn't expect them to sell a dog they never bred without mentioning the fact. They never got a stellar reputation by doing this I imagine.

Unfortunately that is more likely to happen with a “top breeder” than anyone else, which is obvious if you think about it. There are a lot of very decent people in dog showing/breeding but also a lot of unscrupulous ones.

 

[sphexx]

More like general advice. There could be a hundred lawyers on here for all I know.

Sometimes it feels as though there are

 

[boyfalldown]

Actually they didn't rush it at all. This person is The or at least one of the top three breeders in the UK and this is why they're angry at the way this has played out. They never thought for a minute they were getting anything other than a top quality dog and paid a premium for it. They put in plenty of research and it led to this breeder. Just didn't expect them to sell a dog they never bred without mentioning the fact. They never got a stellar reputation by doing this I imagine.

It does sound like she did everything right.I know of breeders who are allegedly reputable I've heard & seen some right horror stories. Same with smaller breeders also. The KC does little or nothing to help

 

[Gremlin]

The KC does little or nothing to help

It never ceases to make wonder why someone hasn't taken the KC to the monopolies commission over showing dogs
They even try to rule over local pet shows

People are always told to make sure you go to a reputable breeder and make sure the dog is KC registered.
I would agree with that if the KC made sure all dogs were health checked and stopped the inbreeding that goes on
in the name of "line breeding", something I have had very sad experience of.

Many of the so called top breeders are obsessed with getting the perfect looking dog to win at top shows, many stud dogs
are used far to often once they start winning, so any problems they may have become widespread.

The KC put limits on the amount of litters a bitch can have and be registered, why not the same for the stud dogs ?

 

[sphexx]

It never ceases to make wonder why someone hasn't taken the KC to the monopolies commission over showing dogs

I don’t think that would help as having multiple registries would be worse. Other registries do exist, for Beagle, Harriers and Foxhounds for example and if memory serves you can show Hunt Foxhounds at KC shows without their being registered with the KC.

They even try to rule over local pet shows

Not quite, you can hold any local or national dog show you like but people who show at KC shows can’t enter them unless the show is registered with the KC as exempt. Personally I think that is probably OK.

People are always told to make sure you go to a reputable breeder and make sure the dog is KC registered.
I would agree with that if the KC made sure all dogs were health checked and stopped the inbreeding that goes on
in the name of "line breeding", something I have had very sad experience of.

Many of the so called top breeders are obsessed with getting the perfect looking dog to win at top shows, many stud dogs
are used far to often once they start winning, so any problems they may have become widespread.

The KC put limits on the amount of litters a bitch can have and be registered, why not the same for the stud dogs ?

Yes, I agree but then I think the whole dog-showing thing is bonkers though I don’t know what the answer is to that

 

[Gremlin]

I don’t think that would help as having multiple registries would be worse. Other registries do exist, for Beagle, Harriers and Foxhounds for example and if memory serves you can show Hunt Foxhounds at KC shows without their being registered with the KC.

Yes there are, one DLR was set up by puppy farmers, not a good thing, but then what guarantee do you get of a pup registered with the KC
being in good health with no inbred problems ?
Foxhounds are now a recognised breed by the KC, not sure if they still do but they used to run an annual Hunt show at Peterborough for hounds,
but try getting an unregistered one to compete at crufts

Not quite, you can hold any local or national dog show you like but people who show at KC shows can’t enter them unless the show is registered with the KC as exempt. Personally I think that is probably OK.

Yes you can, and people used to use them to give young dogs some practice before going to the serious shows, but why should you have to ask
KC permission to enter a charity event for fun ?

Yes, I agree but then I think the whole dog-showing thing is bonkers though I don’t know what the answer is to that

Me neither, I was once in the ladies at a national show and overheard a conversation between 2 competitors saying was a waste showing their dogs
as they already knew who was going to win, and yes the mentioned dog did

 

[sphexx]

Me neither, I was once in the ladies at a national show and overheard a conversation between 2 competitors saying was a waste showing their dogs
as they already knew who was going to win, and yes the mentioned dog did

Ha ha, been there. One problem, amongst many, is that if a dog/bitch is currently very successful and gained lots of CCs then it is hard for the judge not to give it another one. The US system where Champions can’t go on amassing CCs is better — I haven’t been involved with showing for some years so regulations may have changed

Peterborough Hound Show is still going strong - http://www.mfha.org.uk/hunting/hound-shows though showing hunting hounds is also daft

 

[Gremlin]

You just reminded me of something I did a few years ago for the then Trailhound Welfare
I worked on their embroidery logo for them.
They wanted some car stickers designed, I used pictures of the local Hunt Foxhounds to create them
thinking no one would realise, but the lady who ran the trust loved them but spotted immediately that the dogs
were working hounds ......oops
Just looked and it seems they are still selling them

 

[boyfalldown]

It never ceases to make wonder why someone hasn't taken the KC to the monopolies commission over showing dogs
They even try to rule over local pet shows

People are always told to make sure you go to a reputable breeder and make sure the dog is KC registered.
I would agree with that if the KC made sure all dogs were health checked and stopped the inbreeding that goes on
in the name of "line breeding", something I have had very sad experience of.

Many of the so called top breeders are obsessed with getting the perfect looking dog to win at top shows, many stud dogs
are used far to often once they start winning, so any problems they may have become widespread.

The KC put limits on the amount of litters a bitch can have and be registered, why not the same for the stud dogs ?

I'll admit to not liking the KC very much. The only positive I can think is every time I see an unregistered litter I do think 'Why the hell not'. With the amount of cash registration adds to a puppy I don't believe breeders just don't like the KC

I've seen stud dogs that have fathered well over 1,000 puppies. With the sums involved I'd estimate that equates to somewhere north of £100,000 in stud fees alone. Why the hell the KC does nothing to stop that I don't know. I do know 5 years after his death its still hard to find puppies without him in their bloodlines.

I guess the amount of money involved is why the KC does nothing to stop it. I'd love to see them make, in partnership with the breed clubs a real difference to dogs health. It'd be easy for them to restrict the number of puppies a stud fathers, and to not register puppies from parents with known health issues.

I do think its very hard to research a dog nowadays, without help from someone who really knows the breed, down to the point where they can point individual dogs in pedigrees to avoid. I know things can always go wrong. Heartbreakingly so. Through nobodies fault sometimes, but the majority of issues are easily avoided.

I've also seen rescue dogs that have evidently had more then the 4 litters the KC allows a bitch. That rather suggests that some unscrupulous breeders have registered litters to the wrong parents. How you avoid inbreeding in future generations with that going on lord only knows.

I do rate this chap, he talks a lot of sense. This article is a little alarming https://www.doglistener.co.uk/why-are-our-dogs-dying-so-early

 

[sphexx]

IThat rather suggests that some unscrupulous breeders have registered litters to the wrong parents. How you avoid inbreeding in future generations with that going on lord only knows.

You can’t entirel rely on KC pedigrees - there are accidents, mistakes and sometimes fraud especially where particular breeding is muchs sought after.

I do rate this chap, he talks a lot of sense. This article is a little alarming https://www.doglistener.co.uk/why-are-our-dogs-dying-so-early

Yes, in the breed I used have the early dogs often lived to 18 or so but now it’s more like 12