Does anyone know what's going on here?

Digifrog · 21 Jul 2013

Hi there

I'm having a colour issue and was wondering if anyone can tell me what's happening. This is the issue...

The image on the left is the original NEF RAW file and the image to the right is the saved TIFF file. Note the colour shift. Why is this colour shift happening? I haven't made any alterations with colour except saving the TIFF as sRGB colour space. This shouldn't mean anything as I have saved the image "Uncalibrated" and "Adobe RGB" and the colour shift is the same, too much cyan and not the blue in the NEF version. I've also set WB to As Shot and Auto but there exactly the same effect happens. The TIFF file in Ps looks like the NEF, it's only when I save it that I get this shift.

The RAW process is basic with little done.

1. Open RAW file in ACR.
2. Adjustment Brush to lighten the shadows in the wreck.
3. Lower Sharpening to zero.
4. Apply Lens Profile/Remove CA
5. Open RAW in Ps CS6 as 16 Bit TIFF file.
6. Save TIFF file.

Any help would be a err... help.

Cheers

Scott

Richard King · 21 Jul 2013

The image on the left is NOT the original raw file

To unpick this you will need to consider all of the profiles in place

Digifrog · 21 Jul 2013

Richard King said:
The image on the left is NOT the original raw file

To unpick this you will need to consider all of the profiles in place

The image in the first post appears exactly the same as the 2 files on my PC. The left IS the original RAW, that is, the screen shot depicts what I actually see.

Scott

sk66 · 21 Jul 2013

When you open in ACR there is a line at the bottom of the screen that says what settings/color space is being applied (you can't actually view a raw file). The color space is probably ProPhoto (default).
Then when opened in PS it opens w/ the ACR color space (again probably proPhoto). If you want to see how it will save, In PS go to Edit>covert to profile and assign the sRGB space. Also ensure that you embed the color space into the file when saving.

Digifrog · 21 Jul 2013

sk66 said:
When you open in ACR there is a line at the bottom of the screen that says what settings/color space is being applied (you can't actually view a raw file). The color space is probably ProPhoto (default).
Then when opened in PS it opens w/ the ACR color space (again probably proPhoto). If you want to see how it will save, In PS go to Edit>covert to profile and assign the sRGB space. Also ensure that you embed the color space into the file when saving.

Thanks Steve

My default flow generally is..

Open RAW in ACR - (Adobe RGB (1998)) 16 Bit TIFF (my usual default)
Save TIFF as 16 Bit Convert To Profile sRGB IEC61966-2.1. I've tried opening the RAW file with the other spaces (ProPhoto, sRGB) as well but the problem remains. I only notice the colour difference when the saved TIFF is sat next to the NEF in its folder.

How do I embed the colour space into the file?

Scott

sk66 · 21 Jul 2013

TBH, it looks like the saved file is aRGB. It generally results in a duller/grayer image when opened with a color managed program. But, it does say it's sRGB (which means the color space IS imbedded).

To embed the color space there's a check box in the save/save as dialogue box.

So really, the question is what is the color space of the original when being viewed? It seems a saved/exported file is sRGB so one has to assume the original is not. It also seems apparent that you are using a color managed program, otherwise there would be little/no difference for most images.

In PS you may want to "proof" the colors before saving. It's under view>proof colors....to set the color space it's view>proof setup (possibly "custom" if the desired option is not available in the initial list..

Digifrog · 21 Jul 2013

Thank you Steve.

I've received two replies on the Ps Guru forum. They are...

"Well, you know the color gamut of your original raw file is so much wider than sRGB, you have to expect some loss. AdobeRGB is a little wider than sRGB, but either will require post-conversion adjustment.

The question is; are all of your images color-shifting consistently? Convert a batch of varying images and analyze the color shift in each one. If you can nail down a common adjustment, you can include it in your generic conversion action. "

&

"I think the big clue you gave us is in this statement:

"... The TIFF file colours while in Ps looks the same as the NEF, it's only when I save it that I get this shift. ..."

If I read this correctly, it says that the OP has compared two files (...ok, two versions of the same file) and they look essentially identical within PS, but different in other applications).

If my interpretation of this statement is correct, then one can immediately conclude:

a) the two files must be different, at least in some way (...because other applications render them differently)

b) whatever is causing the difference between them and visible in (a) is nullified by PS.

The one thing that almost always causes this behavior is when two files are related to each other by a color profile conversion, are indeed tagged with the correct profiles, but, once outside of PS, you are looking at them with software applications which, unlike PS, are not color managed. In addition, for this scenario to work, nothing much in the original could have been out of gamut w.r.t the conversion process.

The correct way to check if the above hypothesis is correct is to examine the two files using a good EXIF viewing program and see what color profile is attached to each. If they are different, you have your answer, and implicitly, your solution, as well."

My reply was...

Thank you.

The image was taken with the Nikon D800E and the in camera colour space is set to Adobe RGB (not stated if it's 1998). So when I open the RAW in ACR the default setting to open in Ps is Adobe RGB 1998 - 16 Bit TIFF. If I then Convert to Profile and I set to Adobe RGB I still get this colour shift (once the file is saved).

I have shared the original RAW in my SkyDrive if you have the time to download it http://sdrv.ms/15XNPF7 . The Convert to Profile dialogue box reads as follows.

1.Source Space = Adobe RGB (1998).
2. Destination Space = Adobe RGB (1998).
3. Engine Adobe (ACE).
4 Intent = Saturation. Use Black Point Compensation box is checked. In Advanced RGB is selected "Working RGB-sRGB IEC61966-2.1.

I hope this helps you help me. It seems no matter what profile I open with/save with the effect is the same. The side by side view is the thumbnails in my Windows 7 desktop folder. Many thanks.

Scott

sk66 · 21 Jul 2013

Digifrog said:
The Convert to Profile dialogue box reads as follows.

1.Source Space = Adobe RGB (1998).
2. Destination Space = Adobe RGB (1998).
3. Engine Adobe (ACE).
4 Intent = Saturation. Use Black Point Compensation box is checked. In Advanced RGB is selected "Working RGB-sRGB IEC61966-2.1.

I hope this helps you help me. It seems no matter what profile I open with/save with the effect is the same. The side by side view is the thumbnails in my Windows 7 desktop folder. Many thanks.[/B]

Scott

There's your problem. You're working in aRGB and saving in sRGB. aRGB renders weird in non color managed programs such as Windows/I.E..

If you want them to look the same, your "destination space" should be sRGB and the "intent" should be "perceptual" (generally).
The advanced tab doesn't actually matter in this case. It's just defining which RBG is the "working RGB" if you were to choose that as the destination, but you didn't. You're not actually converting anything.

It is fine to work in aRGB (I use ProPhoto), but in order to see what the image will look like in sRGB you either need to "proof" the image w/ the sRGB space, or "save for web" as jpeg and preview it the save dialogue window.

Digifrog · 22 Jul 2013

sk66 said:
There's your problem. You're working in aRGB and saving in sRGB. aRGB renders weird in non color managed programs such as Windows/I.E..

OK. How to overcome this? I've not noticed a colour shift as severe as this before to my recollection, and I don't think I've changed any settings.

sk66 said:
If you want them to look the same, your "destination space" should be sRGB and the "intent" should be "perceptual" (generally).
The advanced tab doesn't actually matter in this case. It's just defining which RBG is the "working RGB" if you were to choose that as the destination, but you didn't. You're not actually converting anything.

I changed the destination space to sRGB, and the Intent to "perpetual" and tried resaving the TIFF but it's still off. Something is obviously happening in the standard Save As process, but what this is I don't know.

sk66 said:
It is fine to work in aRGB (I use ProPhoto), but in order to see what the image will look like in sRGB you either need to "proof" the image w/ the sRGB space, or "save for web" as jpeg and preview it the save dialogue window.

I tried Save for Web process. In the dialogue box where I was able to preview the image it was indeed the horrible cyan cast. I then selected the "document profile" option and it switched back to the more natural blue that is in the NEF. However, when I saved it (I could only save as a gif btw) it reverted back to how all the others looked. :bonk:

I'm at work right now so unable to follow any guidance on this matter until I get home but it's starting to bug me now

I'll try a few other things when I get home but I'm not feeling lucky today.

Scott

sk66 · 22 Jul 2013

I changed the destination space to sRGB, and the Intent to "perpetual" and tried resaving the TIFF but it's still off. Something is obviously happening in the standard Save As process, but what this is I don't know.

Is it "off" the same? You might want to try "relative" and changing black point compensation.

I tried Save for Web process. In the dialogue box where I was able to preview the image it was indeed the horrible cyan cast. I then selected the "document profile" option and it switched back to the more natural blue that is in the NEF. However, when I saved it (I could only save as a gif btw) it reverted back to how all the others looked.

I don't know why Gif would be your only option. Did you do the "save for web" after converting to sRGB color space? It doesn't sound like it. When you set "preview" to "document profile" you are previewing it with it's color space it was edited in, not the color space it's being saved with. You want the preview to be unmanaged sRGB generally. Because the look changed, I have to assume the color spaces were different.

Try this link: http://colormanagementinfo.com/Articles/Photoshop_Working_Spaces/

Digifrog · 22 Jul 2013

sk66 said:
Is it "off" the same? You might want to try "relative" and changing black point compensation.

I don't know why Gif would be your only option. Did you do the "save for web" after converting to sRGB color space? It doesn't sound like it. When you set "preview" to "document profile" you are previewing it with it's color space it was edited in, not the color space it's being saved with. You want the preview to be unmanaged sRGB generally. Because the look changed, I have to assume the color spaces were different.

Try this link: http://colormanagementinfo.com/Articles/Photoshop_Working_Spaces/

Thanks Steve. I will keep trying, I can't accept a colour shift as severe as this. Talking to a colleague today (graphic designer), he told me that as the TIFF looks fine in Ps and crappy in Windows suggests that the rendering may be caused by the OS profile? Do you have CS6/Lr? If so could I ask you to download the original RAW at the link above to see what happens at your end?

I'll check back here tomorrow. As it's now the working week I don't get as much time but this thread is very much live, I need to get to the bottom of this if I can.

Thanks again.

Scott

JonathanRyan · 23 Jul 2013

Try this.....

1. Open your file in PS (using Adobe 1998 colour space)
2. Go to edit....assign profile and set to sRGB (NOT convert profile*)
3. Observe that it looks pretty much like the saved tiff

Whatever you are viewing the saved file in is not honouring the embedded profile and is assuming it's sRGB.

------
* yes, this is generally a dumb thing to do.

sk66 · 28 Jul 2013

JonathanRyan said:
2. Go to edit....assign profile and set to sRGB (NOT convert profile*)

I disagree entirely...
Assign to profile is only saying "display it here as"...it's like using a web browser to "translate" a foreign language website.

Convert to profile actually redefines the colors into the new color space while attempting to keep the appearance the same. This is like a website having a version actually "written in" your language...

JonathanRyan · 29 Jul 2013

You saw me say that "assign profile" was generally a dumb thing to do, right?

There are few occasions when it makes sense. Here, it's a simple test to prove what is happening. The file viewer is not honouring the profile.

BTW your web analogy is wrong. "Assign profile" is like taking a passage of German and marking it as French. Convert is like translating.

sk66 · 29 Jul 2013

JonathanRyan said:
You saw me say that "assign profile" was generally a dumb thing to do, right?

There are few occasions when it makes sense. Here, it's a simple test to prove what is happening. The file viewer is not honouring the profile.

I misunderstood your note.

BTW your web analogy is wrong. "Assign profile" is like taking a passage of German and marking it as French. Convert is like translating.

tomato/tomahtoe... "written in" is translated, an auto translation by a web browser, not so much...