Do you use speedlights on the hotshoe regularly?

jamiebonline

jamiebonline

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Jamie
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Hi

I know taking the flash off the camera yields better control of the light but I have seen some wedding photographers, and naturally a lot of photo journalists, shoot with the flash on the hotshoe. I suppose mainly for convenience/practical reasons.

But.. in a situation where you are outdoors and the subject is well lit by natural light. For example, you are not using the flash to try to counteract strong backlighting from the sun or fill in shadows that are quite strong, can on camera flash just make the images pop a bit more? Anyone doing this? I would like to get a flash again but I really don't want to go down the road of triggers and softboxes. As I said, I am looking more for a ''popping'' effect. Thanks for your thoughts. :)


J
 
•
The on-camera flash will do just fine against daylight if you are quite close
to your subject say head to waist with +/- 85mm at close range. A test shot
will confirm or not the correct exposition on the screen. It would help to think
wider apertures since this is a tiny flash.

For more flexibility, a hot shoe flash (faster working speed) on-camera or
hot shoe cable (slower working speed) will grant extra power and/or distance
to subject. In both cases, a small soft box or bouncer may be attached. The
maximum flexibility, with the same flash, being the cool but pricier transceiver
solution.

For maximum power and flexibility, I use the B2… but then I lose in working
speed between situations but surely not within the same situation.

Does this help?
 
Last edited:
Kodiak Qc said:
•
The on-camera flash will do just fine against daylight if you are quite close
to your subject say head to waist with +/- 85mm at close range. A test shot
will confirm or not the correct exposition on the screen. It would help to think
wider apertures since this is a tiny flash.

For more flexibility, a hot shoe flash (faster working speed) on-camera or
hot shoe cable (slower working speed) will grant extra power and/or distance
to subject. In both cases, a small soft box or bouncer may be attached. The
maximum flexibility, with the same flash, being the cool but pricier transceiver
solution.

For maximum power and flexibility, I use the B2… but then I lose in working
speed between situations.

Does this help?
Click to expand...


Yeah I didn't want to use the built-in flash. I wanted to buy a Nikon speedlight and put it on the hotshoe and, as you said, use some kind of small diffuser to put over it. It might give me the pop I am looking for. I don't want anything too harsh, naturally but I don't want to take the flash off the body. Would like more definition to the subject. You shoot with an external flash on the hotshoe?
 
•
I work two ways with the SB900:
• on camera (for best reaction time) and a bouncer like the Rogue
(but not the big ones, mine is about 12" long side).
• on hot shoe cable with the same Rogue. The cable is a tad
cumbersome but the shot are not so flat.
 
For there to be enough flash power for the image to 'pop' it becomes an intrusive light, you have 3 choices as far as I see it:

A low powered on camera direct flash used as fill doesn't create a pop

A higher powered on camera direct flash gives a pop but look crap

A higher powered on camera indirect flash gives a better light.

I might often have a flash in the hotshoe, but as above, it's modified and bounced rather than used direct.
 
Yes but mainly because I'm still unpacking my softboxes/studio lights/triggers.


Either they're bounced off a wall or bounced off a rogue flash bender/reflector.

I prefer the lights off camera, but this is a decent compromise for me.
 
Jamie,

Just because you 'can' use the flash on the hotshoe doesn't mean you should.....(its also an excellent place to put a trigger - lol)

at some point in the future you will realise that OCF will give you better results.
Get the triggers now:
a pair of 622's = £30 ish
a 622 & a 622 TX = £60 ish
& seriously open up your options.
 
Diving Pete said:
Jamie,

Just because you 'can' use the flash on the hotshoe doesn't mean you should.....(its also an excellent place to put a trigger - lol)

at some point in the future you will realise that OCF will give you better results.
Get the triggers now:
a pair of 622's = £30 ish
a 622 & a 622 TX = £60 ish
& seriously open up your options.
Click to expand...
That's really not great advice if I'm being honest. The question as to whether you should or not depends on what you are trying to achieve. It certainly sounds like the OP is looking for some lighting weighted more towards the flash and that may mean that off camera flash could be beneficial but you could also get some good results with lighting modifiers on the camera.

There are plenty of examples where on camera flash is a good idea and too many people that will always preach about off camera flash.
 
OK,
I'm not saying that just because you can use your flash as an OCF - you should always do it !!!
There are times when that option isn't the best to use.
BUT for the cost of the triggers you allow yourself more creativity & control even using the same modifiers.
 
connersz said:
That's really not great advice if I'm being honest...
Click to expand...
We'll park that for now :)

connersz said:
...The question as to whether you should or not depends on what you are trying to achieve. It certainly sounds like the OP is looking for some lighting weighted more towards the flash and that may mean that off camera flash could be beneficial ...
Click to expand...
There are plenty of us who use on camera flash a great deal, but I'll be blunt, for anyone who knows anything about lighting it's not an artistic choice, it's a practical one. Ask any bunch of decent photographers to choose a light source to create any image they want and none of them will decide to use on camera flash.
It has one 'acceptable' use, and that's for fill, other than that it's just something we have to learn to work around.#

connersz said:
...you could also get some good results with lighting modifiers on the camera.
...
Click to expand...
That's hilarious, largely those modifiers are crap, they can produce decent results when the situations match them perfectly, but if you want 'good' results with on camera flash you have to understand light better than 'stick a modifier on'. And that's the point here, understanding light will give great results with a range of techniques and sometimes with a gizmo. But the gizmo with no understanding will rarely give a decent result.

connersz said:
...
There are plenty of examples where on camera flash is a good idea and too many people that will always preach about off camera flash.
Click to expand...

No there aren't, and people 'preaching' are doing so from a position of knowledge. As this is the lighting section, people here either know that the important thing about lighting is size, shape and direction, and for the people coming to ask questions, it's because they haven't got their heads round that simple principal.

SImply stating that 'on camera flash is a good idea' doesn't make it so, it just adds to the tons of misinformation that fills the internet.

So
connersz said:
That's really not great advice if I'm being honest...
Click to expand...
is just wrong. Unless you want to post loads of fantastically lit images from on-camera flash to prove your point.
 
Yeah, as Phil says. On camera flash, with nothing to bounce off, only has one real use and that's as a fill light. The little modifiers like the stofen are rubbish they just chuck light everywhere, sometimes worse than just having the bare flash imo. Even bouncing it, I'll only use it if I really have to.
 
As ever, wise words from Phil. Definitely a practical choice rather than a creative one. I've used on camera flash a bit recently but it leaves me yearning for my OCF and triggers.
 
Phil V said:
We'll park that for now :)


There are plenty of us who use on camera flash a great deal, but I'll be blunt, for anyone who knows anything about lighting it's not an artistic choice, it's a practical one. Ask any bunch of decent photographers to choose a light source to create any image they want and none of them will decide to use on camera flash.
It has one 'acceptable' use, and that's for fill, other than that it's just something we have to learn to work around.#


That's hilarious, largely those modifiers are crap, they can produce decent results when the situations match them perfectly, but if you want 'good' results with on camera flash you have to understand light better than 'stick a modifier on'. And that's the point here, understanding light will give great results with a range of techniques and sometimes with a gizmo. But the gizmo with no understanding will rarely give a decent result.



No there aren't, and people 'preaching' are doing so from a position of knowledge. As this is the lighting section, people here either know that the important thing about lighting is size, shape and direction, and for the people coming to ask questions, it's because they haven't got their heads round that simple principal.

SImply stating that 'on camera flash is a good idea' doesn't make it so, it just adds to the tons of misinformation that fills the internet.

So

is just wrong. Unless you want to post loads of fantastically lit images from on-camera flash to prove your point.
Click to expand...
Thank you for dissecting my post so carefully there. I said before that it depends on what you're trying to achieve after the person I was replied to fobbed off the idea as a whole. You just come back to me with another good reason why you should use a speed light (practicality).

I'm not going to get into an argument on lighting, especially against the self-elected god of the photography forum but you need to stop twisting up other peoples suggestions into sounding like nonsense.

I stick by what I said earlier. The reason it's bad advice is that it depends on the situation as you mostly highlighted in your generous response and being a wedding photographer I'm sure you're aware of how to choose the right option correctly. It might not be so easy for newcomers to figure that out.
 
Diving Pete said:
Jamie,

Just because you 'can' use the flash on the hotshoe doesn't mean you should.....(its also an excellent place to put a trigger - lol)

at some point in the future you will realise that OCF will give you better results.
Get the triggers now:
a pair of 622's = £30 ish
a 622 & a 622 TX = £60 ish
& seriously open up your options.
Click to expand...
I would be interested to know where you can pick up a pair of 622 for £30 ish
 
connersz said:
Thank you for dissecting my post so carefully there. I said before that it depends on what you're trying to achieve after the person I was replied to fobbed off the idea as a whole. You just come back to me with another good reason why you should use a speed light (practicality).

I'm not going to get into an argument on lighting, especially against the self-elected god of the photography forum but you need to stop twisting up other peoples suggestions into sounding like nonsense.

I stick by what I said earlier. The reason it's bad advice is that it depends on the situation as you mostly highlighted in your generous response and being a wedding photographer I'm sure you're aware of how to choose the right option correctly. It might not be so easy for newcomers to figure that out.
Click to expand...
OK I'll not dissect your post.m

You said off camera flash was bad advice, you also said that on camera modifiers would produce good results. I suggested a book, for the price of a Fong dong, the OP could buy the speedlighters handbook, are you honestly suggesting the modifier is a better buy?.

I disagree with both those statements. I'm not a self appointed anything, I give advice, some people think it's good advice and others might disagree.

You still have the option of showing some great examples of shots using on camera flash and modifiers. After all you must have loads of them or you wouldn't have said it so strongly... :)
 
Last edited:
Phil V said:
OK I'll not dissect your post.m

You said off camera flash was bad advice, you also said that on camera modifiers would produce good results. I suggested a book, for the price of a Fong dong, the OP could buy the speedlighters handbook, are you honestly suggesting the modifier is a better buy?.

I disagree with both those statements. I'm not a self appointed anything, I give advice, some people think it's good advice and others might disagree.

You still have the option of showing some great examples of shots using on camera flash and modifiers. After all you must have loads of them or you wouldn't have said it so strongly... :)
Click to expand...
Why are you making yet another attempt to try and twist my words?

At the heart of this post is what I presume to be someone who is starting out in photography, not a world-class professional like you. They asked whether it's possible to create a popping effect using an on camera flash and without getting into whether it's going to look good or not, the simple answer is yes it's possible!

I attempted to target the 'should you' element of that question very basically without mentioning any lighting modifiers at all, whether it be a simple bounce card included with the flash or a massively expensive velcon-on softbox the point is that "you could also get some good results" by using them. I didn't say that they would be winning the front cover on any bridal magazines or that by using them is the only possible means to take a picture.

You then took my statement where I said "off camera flash could be beneficial" and twisted it loosely into principally the same kind of message anyway as you mention the benefit of using both methods.

As for the rest of it you contradict yourself by stating that flash on camera flash is good for practicality and then you say it's a bad idea but also happen to mention that you use it on camera yourself. I'm confused Phil, are you not a wedding photographer using on camera flash and charging people hundreds of pounds for what is a badly lit photo, or are you just again agreeing like me with the principal that it's not always the best method but can clearly sometimes be used to create an image worth charging money for?
Phil V said:
I might often have a flash in the hotshoe, but as above, it's modified and bounced rather than used direct.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that your intentions are good on here but I've seen several posts where you clearly haven't taken care to read someones post properly and totally misinterpreted it. I work as a photographer on a similar basis to you and I don't see what gives you the right totally unravel my advice word-by-word (even though the output was more or less the same message).

P.s. you said nothing about a book.
 
connersz said:
Why are you making yet another attempt to try and twist my words?

At the heart of this post is what I presume to be someone who is starting out in photography, not a world-class professional like you. They asked whether it's possible to create a popping effect using an on camera flash and without getting into whether it's going to look good or not, the simple answer is yes it's possible!

I attempted to target the 'should you' element of that question very basically without mentioning any lighting modifiers at all, whether it be a simple bounce card included with the flash or a massively expensive velcon-on softbox the point is that "you could also get some good results" by using them. I didn't say that they would be winning the front cover on any bridal magazines or that by using them is the only possible means to take a picture.

You then took my statement where I said "off camera flash could be beneficial" and twisted it loosely into principally the same kind of message anyway as you mention the benefit of using both methods.

As for the rest of it you contradict yourself by stating that flash on camera flash is good for practicality and then you say it's a bad idea but also happen to mention that you use it on camera yourself. I'm confused Phil, are you not a wedding photographer using on camera flash and charging people hundreds of pounds for what is a badly lit photo, or are you just again agreeing like me with the principal that it's not always the best method but can clearly sometimes be used to create an image worth charging money for?


I have no doubt that your intentions are good on here but I've seen several posts where you clearly haven't taken care to read someones post properly and totally misinterpreted it. I work as a photographer on a similar basis to you and I don't see what gives you the right totally unravel my advice word-by-word (even though the output was more or less the same message).

P.s. you said nothing about a book.
Click to expand...
Ok you're right! I'm a complete t***. I live to belittle people...
You can see that by my first post here (very unhelpfulo_O).

And your post opened with such a positive message....


Oh! Hang on? :thinking:

My apologies, I mentioned the book in the other thread, the one actually posted by a newcomer (my mistake), whereas the OP in this thread isn't really a noob, just someone who likes to post 'innocent' questions.
 
ok
dizidav said:
I would be interested to know where you can pick up a pair of 622 for £30 ish
Click to expand...


ok to be fair - thats a 2nd hand price...

Cheapest NEW is about for a pair of 622's = £46

the 622Tx & 622 = £55 ;)
 
Dick waving aside for a minute...

jamiebonline said:
Do you use speedlights on the hotshoe regularly?
Click to expand...

Yes.

jamiebonline said:
But.. in a situation where you are outdoors and the subject is well lit by natural light. For example, you are not using the flash to try to counteract strong backlighting from the sun or fill in shadows that are quite strong, can on camera flash just make the images pop a bit more? Anyone doing this?
Click to expand...

Yes and yes.
 
connersz said:
They asked whether it's possible to create a popping effect using an on camera flash and without getting into whether it's going to look good or not, the simple answer is yes it's possible!
Click to expand...

Hi, thanks for the advice. Things got emotional for a moment. It made interesting reading :) I understand so that using the flash on the hotshoe is acceptable as a fill. (Forget the popping remark)
I suppose it depends on the individual what acceptable means. I am thinking about this for practical reasons. I don't have a car. I shoot outdoors and I also have back problems. I don't want to carry a lot of stuff but 2 small triggers, as lightstand and a small softbox... I guess I could manage that. It would make a very big difference to the shots where the flash is being used as a fill. Very big difference?
 
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