DNG workflow

[RomneyTansley]

I've recently started to convert all my RAW files to DNG format. And when I then open those DNG files in Camera Raw I know I can (automatically) save any changes I make back to the same files. However when I open those same DNG files in Photoshop and make edits, it seems that I cannot save those changes in the DNG format. So what should I do? Which format should I now use, as DNG seems no longer to be an option. I'm pretty new to PS so would appreciate any advice from the more experienced. Thanks.
Romney

 

[Werecow]

Why not just keep the raws?

 

[MisterE]

Whether they are RAWs or DNG is irrelevant. You cannot permanently alter either of them. That is the purpose of them. All editing changes are contained within sub-files. In the case of RAWs the changes can be saved in XMP files [or the catalogue in Lightroom]. So you have to keep those XMP files, or take care of your LR catalogue.

DNGs store edits within themselves, so there are no XMP files to worry about or manage.

I'm not sure what you are wanting to save. Just to make sure I'm not talking crap [I don't use Photoshop's and Camera Raw much], I've just opened a DNG in Photoshop's Camera RAW and made some changes. Click 'Done' and the picture closes with the changes saved. Re-open it - edits all present. I then opened the same DNG in Lightroom and found those edits already applied. So yes, Photoshop can and does save changes to DNGs.

If you're talking about further editing of DNGs in PS after Camera Raw has opened and you've finished with it, such as spot removal and any other PS tweaks, then no, you cannot save them to the DNG. You can only save them as a new file like PSD, Tiff, jpg etc. And if you used RAWs you'd still get the same result.

 

[RomneyTansley]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It seems that .DNG images are really like negatives, at least where PS is concerned ie they can't be altered (tho they can in CR). So now I wonder, having made changes to the colour sharpness etc, of an image in PS and assuming that I'll want to do further work on this before I'm finished, which is the best format in which to save the image (as .DNG is not an option)?

I find it difficult to understand how to go about this. It looks for instance as if it is not possible to make changes non-destructively, because once I've saved the image in a new format - say PSD - then, if I have second thoughts about what I've already done, I have to start all over again with the original .DNG image. Is that so?

BTW I assume all this would also apply to RAW images. My reason for switching to .DNG is because I'm convinced that this non-proprietary open file format is likely to be around for longer than the many proprietary RAW formats.

I'm sorry if my questions appear to be naive, but as you can see I'm still trying to get my head around the basics of PS, and I'm really grateful for the helpful comments.

 

[Werecow]

The standard practice for this is to keep your raws/dngs stored and backed up and to produce a file from them when needed that fits the intended usage in that situation.

For example an image for the web will be very different to one for printing (as will an image be for printing a small size to a large).

If you want a standard "master file" that is at full res with adjustments saved then it's best to save it as a .Tif. But if you do that, do NOT apply any sharpening as that will be need to be changed for the intended output as above.

I myself just keep my raws and develop from them to the type of situation as and when needed.

By the way if i were you, i'd save the conversion to dng till a time where it actually looks like your raws won't be supported, it's a lot of hassle and raw isn't going to dissapear for long time yet (if ever).
The best reason is that there can be a benefit in processing quality if you keep the original raws, for use with the associated manufacturers own software. For instance Canon's Digital Photo Professional software is preffered by a significant amount of people for it's colour reproduction and it does NOT support using DNG files.

 

[MisterE]

So now I wonder, having made changes to the colour sharpness etc, of an image in PS and assuming that I'll want to do further work on this before I'm finished, which is the best format in which to save the image (as .DNG is not an option)?

I save as PSD. If it's something that has taken time with many changes I'll save versions at various stages. But do you need to go in to the depths of PS at this stage? ACR covers all the basics and a bit more besides. You only need PS for more serious cloning, replacing skies, layers etc. As I said earlier, I get almost all my work done in Lightroom which is just a more sparkly version of ACR. I only go in to PS occasionally these days.

I find it difficult to understand how to go about this. It looks for instance as if it is not possible to make changes non-destructively, because once I've saved the image in a new format - say PSD - then, if I have second thoughts about what I've already done, I have to start all over again with the original .DNG image. Is that so?

As above - I save PSD copies at intervals so if something doesn't work out I choose an earlier version without having to go back to the beginning. If you do the basics on a DNG like remove dust spots, level the horizon/verticals as required, and tweaks on exposure etc then these will remain intact unless you deliberately undo them. I'll then save a first version PSD as a starting point. That's the donkey work out of the way. Saving subsequent versions depends on what I'm doing. If I make a mess of something it's not a big loss to jump back to an earlier copy. If you start to learn the intricacies of PS then there are things like using adjustment layers for say, saturation, amongst all the other adjustments possible, whereby you can go back to the adjustment layer and change it at any time. Directly changing the saturation will mean that it eventually gets lost in the disappearing history, and forever when you close it down. There are other things like taking snapshots of your progress but honestly I've never done that. Saving as a PSD will preserve these adjustment layers so you can change them at any time in the future.

BTW I assume all this would also apply to RAW images. My reason for switching to .DNG is because I'm convinced that this non-proprietary open file format is likely to be around for longer than the many proprietary RAW formats.

Yes - same for RAW. I switched to DNGs a long time ago because I got fed up having to maintain XMPs alongside RAWS. Having to manage a pair - renaming, moving etc - became a nuisance. Neither am I particularly fond of protecting and preserving LR catalogues which contain edit info if you don't creat XMPs. Lose the catalogue and/or XMP then you're back to square one. So I can treat my LR catalogues with little regard now and not worry about backing them up or losing them.

I'm sorry if my questions appear to be naive, but as you can see I'm still trying to get my head around the basics of PS, and I'm really grateful for the helpful comments.

Not a problem at all. We all started somewhere.

 

[RomneyTansley]

That was brilliant! Many thanks MisterE and Werecow for those excellent and informative responses. You've given me a lot to think about and a much clearer sense of how to go about things.