Disability discrimination at its 'finest' :(

Box Brownie

Box Brownie

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Box Brownie said:
A very sad aspect of some corners of modern British society.
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Indeed.

My wife drew my attention to it this morning. It's typical parliamentary wrong headedness, not to make the act criminal but leave it to the victim to shoulder the costs of pursuing the malefactor.
 
I do have a bit of sympathy for businesses as they just can't win. Refuse entry to someone with a dog and be damned, allow entry and receive complaints from other people. There's always someone.
 
woof woof said:
I do have a bit of sympathy for businesses as they just can't win. Refuse entry to someone with a dog and be damned, allow entry and receive complaints from other people. There's always someone.
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AFAIK there is a distinct difference between restaurants and other places where food is served controlling customers wishing to visit with a dog and a customer with an assistance or service dog.
 
woof woof said:
I do have a bit of sympathy for businesses as they just can't win. Refuse entry to someone with a dog and be damned, allow entry and receive complaints from other people. There's always someone.
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They're perfectly entitled to refuse access to a pet. They are legally not allowed to do so for an assistance dog. Or an assistance cat, or mongoose for that matter.


EDIT: on closer looking, sadly I'm wrong. The law applies specifically to dogs. The poor mongeese have been overlooked.
 
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I know a couple of people with assistance dogs for sight loss. They have seen the same kind of attitude. It’s horrible. One keeps at it, despite the embarrassment and pain, and the other one is often effectively housebound.

The businesses should throw the entitled whiners out, and allow the assistance dogs owners in.
 
Why would people complain about guide dogs? I dislike dogs and do not like them in places I go to like pubs etc but a guide dog is something else.
 
cambsno said:
Why would people complain about guide dogs? .....
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DemiLion said:
Because some people are like opinions. You know. The one that everybody has.....
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And on a side note......it is not only polite but respectful to both the dog & blind owner to ask permission if someone or their children want to pet the dog. Such attention, especially if the dog is "working", is distracting and plain wrong.

Afteral, would you not ask a Police dog handler if you could say hello to his dog.......and yes obviously the two scenarios are very different but the same courtesy applies!
 
woof woof said:
I do have a bit of sympathy for businesses as they just can't win. Refuse entry to someone with a dog and be damned, allow entry and receive complaints from other people. There's always someone.
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And this is typical of the absolutely disgusting responses , of people who do not give a s**t about disabled people.
Back in the eighties, I use to help out with PHAB (physically handicapped, able bodied), who took less fortunate people out for trips and adventures. We looked after them, enabling them to do things which they wouldn't have been able to do without our help. We sometimes received abuse, if we took them to a disco/club, where the less enlightened people (neanderthals), would think they shouldn't be there.
Blooming heck, I thought times had changed - clearly not.:(
 
Box Brownie said:
And on a side note......it is not only polite but respectful to both the dog & blind owner to ask permission if someone or their children want to pet the dog. Such attention, especially if the dog is "working", is distracting and plain wrong.

Afteral, would you not ask a Police dog handler if you could say hello to his dog.......and yes obviously the two scenarios are very different but the same courtesy applies!
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Oh yes they do. And some don't even ask.
 
Box Brownie said:
AFAIK there is a distinct difference between restaurants and other places where food is served controlling customers wishing to visit with a dog and a customer with an assistance or service dog.
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DemiLion said:
They're perfectly entitled to refuse access to a pet. They are legally not allowed to do so for an assistance dog. Or an assistance cat, or mongoose for that matter.


EDIT: on closer looking, sadly I'm wrong. The law applies specifically to dogs. The poor mongeese have been overlooked.
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I think you both missed my point. It doesn't matter what people are entitled to do or what is legal. Someone will always complain. I know this. You know this.
 
I was thinking this (below copy/paste from the article) before I got to the paragraph about it. I think the same when I see people in wheelchairs and think how fortunate I am. A few years ago we had a local chap who was blind and had a Lab as a guide dog and just before he got to me on the pavement I'd shout a "Hello, Ray " to him... It's why I move wheelie bins off the pavement where the bin men..some of them.. leave them after emptying them rather than put them back on the 2m-wide grass verge where they took them from. I've actually complaimed to the council about it. Turns out they contacted the driver of the lorry. Soon afterwards a huge man, one of the bin men, called at the house. Fortunately, my wife answered the door and the conversation was OK..lol.

"I have never understood why, when everyone on the planet is one accident or medical condition away from disability, many people seem to lack any empathy and do not attempt to understand how it must feel to be refused service because of a disability"
 
Box Brownie said:
And on a side note......it is not only polite but respectful to both the dog & blind owner to ask permission if someone or their children want to pet the dog. Such attention, especially if the dog is "working", is distracting and plain wrong.

Afteral, would you not ask a Police dog handler if you could say hello to his dog.......and yes obviously the two scenarios are very different but the same courtesy applies!
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We..well, my wife,really...have had two Retrievers and when she sees one with a blind person, who is standing still, I have to remind her that it's not the done thing to interact with them so not to even ask. If she's out on the front, at home, and sees someone with a Retriever coming along the pavement she's up the drive in a flash...Lol. These dogs do love the attention. When we took one of ours onto the Malvern Hills it would run from one rest-bench on the pathways to the next one befriending people who took 5 minutes rest on them before carrying on with their walk.
 
If they have their harness on, they are working.
 
Eucris said:
*snip*

Moderator warning given - you may not like what people post - don't personally attack them.
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It's also worth remembering that last time we had a discussion around the subject of different ability, a fairly prominent member of the forum received a parmaban,
as noted in the 'Returning to the Fld' thread.
 
Box Brownie said:
Afteral, would you not ask a Police dog handler if you could say hello to his dog....
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Clive K said:
Oh yes they do. And some don't even ask.
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When I was Force Photographer for TVP, one of my first jobs was illustrating an internal safety leaflet passed around to all officers of the Force entitled 'Police Dogs bite PC's too'.

The current 'nibble rate' in the UK is around 13 per week for PD's - blue-on-blue included.

Screenshot 2024-11-25 234921.jpg



As a side note, you should never really approach any dog without the owner's permission. Dogs can get defensive or attack for any number of reasons.
 
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DemiLion said:
When I was Force Photographer for TVP, one of my first jobs was illustrating an internal safety leaflet passed around to all officers of the Force entitled 'Police Dogs bite PC's too'.

The current 'nibble rate' in the UK is around 13 per week for PD's - blue-on-blue included.

View attachment 439655



As a side note, you should never really approach any dog without the owner's permission. Dogs can get defensive or attack for any number of reasons.
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During self defence training days I used to carry out a demonstration using a large holdall to replace the dog. The idea was to show officers the best way to approach a working dog and the safe distances involved. I did this every year, but they still encroached too close at times and suffered the consequences.
 
We don't do integration well as a society. My daughter works with SEN children some have been in wheelchairs. Some of the comments that are made by parents about the SEN kids is actually quite disgusting.
When I was a parent governor at my daughters school (mid 90's) we received a letter signed by some parents saying we shouldn't be employing a caretaker with only one arm. The main reason according to the letter is that he would change his "hand" attachment in front of the children.
 
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Clive K said:
During self defence training days I used to carry out a demonstration using a large holdall to replace the dog. The idea was to show officers the best way to approach a working dog and the safe distances involved. I did this every year, but they still encroached too close at times and suffered the consequences.
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When I trained police dogs and their handlers many years ago I found that both the Met and Essex (maybe others too but I don't know) thought it was a good idea to use police officers wearing old police uniforms as the criminal in manwork training, and they then wondered why so many police officers came unstuck when dogs were deployed in real life:)

Back on topic, with so many people with disabilities of all kinds now very visible in public instead of being locked away out of sight as in the past, you'd think that the public would have changed their attitude towards disability, but sadly not.
 
Garry Edwards said:
When I trained police dogs and their handlers many years ago I found that both the Met and Essex (maybe others too but I don't know) thought it was a good idea to use police officers wearing old police uniforms as the criminal in manwork training, and they then wondered why so many police officers came unstuck when dogs were deployed in real life:)

Back on topic, with so many people with disabilities of all kinds now very visible in public instead of being locked away out of sight as in the past, you'd think that the public would have changed their attitude towards disability, but sadly not.
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A bit like the difference between a pet dog and a service dog......

Seeing disabled folks may make some people feel uncomfortable, for reasons best known to them(?), but when their discomfort results in abuse & aggressive discrimination against those individuals....that is crossing the line! That is why we have laws though their enforcement it seems can the lacklustre:(
 
The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members - Mahatma Ghandi
 
DemiLion said:
The current 'nibble rate' in the UK is around 13 per week for PD's - blue-on-blue included.
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"nibble rate"... lol Love the terminology :D
 
We actively seek out places that are dog friendly. but do understand the need for dogs to be fairly well behaved and not cause distress to others.

Obviously Assistance Dogs is completely different and there should not be discrimination, but I was wondering where do things stand if say the business was worried that the environment was such where an able person would be fine, but someone with a disability, or their dog, could get hurt or distressed?
 
gman said:
We actively seek out places that are dog friendly. but do understand the need for dogs to be fairly well behaved and not cause distress to others.

Obviously Assistance Dogs is completely different and there should not be discrimination, but I was wondering where do things stand if say the business was worried that the environment was such where an able person would be fine, but someone with a disability, or their dog, could get hurt or distressed?
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Hmm! a good point but surely one where the owners opinion one way or the other is not relevant..... In other words an external assessor is needed to examine the premises for risk of any type but with a regard to accessibility with expanded risk assessment. But then that opens another can of worms:-
As to the awareness of the owner of the premises as to risks?
And hence who to consult?

I was under the impression that all premises need to have some sort of accessibility statement and surmise that that examination of the premises would also identify any risk aspects ???
 
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gman said:
We actively seek out places that are dog friendly. but do understand the need for dogs to be fairly well behaved and not cause distress to others.

Obviously Assistance Dogs is completely different and there should not be discrimination, but I was wondering where do things stand if say the business was worried that the environment was such where an able person would be fine, but someone with a disability, or their dog, could get hurt or distressed?
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On Sunday I spoke to one lady with her guide dog, just to say to her that the event we were holding in the church hall was very busy. She decided to stay outside and listened to samba band, (surprised the dog didn't seem bothered by the noise) Her friend went in a brought her out a drink etc. But if she had decided to go in I wouldn't have stopped her. She knows better than anyone how they will cope in crowded spaces.

I remember when I visited a cousin in London several years back that one of her friends with a guide dog wouldn't go into central London because her dog couldn't cope with the constant crowd.
 
gman said:
We actively seek out places that are dog friendly. but do understand the need for dogs to be fairly well behaved and not cause distress to others.

Obviously Assistance Dogs is completely different and there should not be discrimination, but I was wondering where do things stand if say the business was worried that the environment was such where an able person would be fine, but someone with a disability, or their dog, could get hurt or distressed?
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Impossible to say - some disabled person may cope better than an able bodied. Too many variables to consider
 
I'm thinking perhaps of something where there may be items on the ground such as nails or other sharp objects that wouldn't puncture shoes, but could hurt paws? Someone mentioned a nightclub, could there be a risk of the dog's paws being stood on? Or maybe where vehicles or plant could hit the person or the dog? Just thinking out loud here.

Presumably there will be some onus on the person with the disability, so long as they are informed beforehand. But I'm guessing there must also be a duty of care on the business owner?
 
Marc said:
As a wheelchair user, what really p***es me off is when people use the "listed buiding" as an excuse not to make adaptations, Caernarfon Castle is Grade I listed and has ramps and a lift!
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But sometimes it really is not possible to adapt listed buildings. I do agree more could be done at a lot of locations to aid disabled access though.
 
kennethwfd said:
The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members - Mahatma Ghandi
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I've thought long and hard about that quote and come to the conclusion that it's overly simplistic and potentially very harmful.

Imagine that we have a pot full of resources (money, buildings, trained staff, etc). Let's say that we put those resources into helping, for example, 0.1% of the population, who are in need. Now, let us say that those resources are, as a consequence, not used to help, say, 10% of the population, who are not quite so much in need but the same resources would relieve their suffering.

Is it actually right to benefit 1 person while, in effect, harming 100 people?
 
Marc said:
Nowhere is it not possible to have a ramp
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But a ramp is unlikely to get you to upper floors. We went to a "wildlife" centre earlier this year that said it was wheelchair accessible. The reality was whilst it was a sealed surface. The Zig Zagging needed to the get from the car park to the lower level meant that most wheel chair users were unable to use it. So just putting a ramp doesn't always solve the problem. That doesn't mean we shouldn't find other ways to work round a problem. But sometimes we also have to accept that some Disabled people can not access some areas.
 
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Marc said:
Nowhere is it not possible to have a ramp
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Church tower which has 200 narrow windy stone steps? Cannot be done. Something like John Lennons house (if you can visit)?

Its also probably down to cost too - a single story building maybe a ramp is not too much or that difficult, but a multi story building would be a lot harder and probably prohibitive.

Thinking about my local gym, gravel car park, couple of steps up to the gym - bit of a chicken and egg but they could spend thousands on fixing that and not get any added custom as a result!
 

munch said:
But a ramp is unlikely to get you to upper floors. We went to a "wildlife" centre earlier this year that said it was wheelchair accessible. The reality was whilst it was a sealed surface. The Zig Zagging needed to the get from the car park to the lower level meant that most wheel chair users were unable to use it. So just putting a ramp doesn't always solve the problem. That doesn't mean we shouldn't find other ways to work round a problem. But sometimes we also have to accept that some Disabled people can not access some areas.
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cambsno said:
Church tower which has 200 narrow windy stone steps? Cannot be done. Something like John Lennons house (if you can visit)?

Its also probably down to cost too - a single story building maybe a ramp is not too much or that difficult, but a multi story building would be a lot harder and probably prohibitive.

Thinking about my local gym, gravel car park, couple of steps up to the gym - bit of a chicken and egg but they could spend thousands on fixing that and not get any added custom as a result!
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I'm talking about ramps to enter buildings,
 
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